Why is desiring Heaven so important?

[InterestedAtheist]

Does that mean it doesn't exist...?

God Bless!

Take a look at my name to see what I think!
And, despite our little disagreement, best wishes to you too.

 

[ananda]

There is another (higher) way of knowing and another source of learning, and it comes through believing...

Faith-based belief in Ahura-Mazda is superior to direct experience?

How is your religion any different from Atheist...?

God Bless!

Atheists - as the word is commonly used IMO - primarily denies the existence of god(s). Buddhists like myself are more agnostic; we say "we haven't personally experienced a god, so we neither believe nor disbelieve". Gods and their heavens are ultimately irrelevant, as we would rather focus on the true, primary question in life: cessation of suffering and discontentment.

 

[Neogaia777]

Faith-based belief in Ahura-Mazda is superior to direct experience?

Atheists - as the word is commonly used IMO - primarily denies the existence of god(s). Buddhists like myself are more agnostic; we say "we haven't personally experienced a god, so we neither believe nor disbelieve". Gods and their heavens are ultimately irrelevant, as we would rather focus on the true, primary question in life: cessation of suffering and discontentment.

Many have personally experienced, or do have personal experience(s) with a or the God though...? I have, for one, and still do sometimes... And very, very many of them too...

He has spoke to me and speaks to me, we talk about things (now), ect...

We see God in things, in everything sometimes... And He has used those things to try and communicate with you or to you, ect... Shown you you the He knows and knew long ago, even every single thought you would have and be having and the way you'd be thinking at any given time and point in your life, and connected that to the things outside, knowing so, and showing you His knowing so, to try and communicate with you or to, for you to know and get to know Him, who He is, and where He is; how He is, or can be, or what He can do, what and all that He knows, ect, ect...

God Bless!

 

[ananda]

Many have personally experienced, or do have personal experience(s) with a or the God though...? I have, for one, and still do sometimes... And very, very many of them too...

He has spoke to me and speaks to me, we talk about things (now), ect...

We see God in things, in everything sometimes... And He has used those things to try and communicate with you or to you, ect... Shown you you the He knows and knew long ago, even every single thought you would have and be having and the way you'd be thinking at any given time and point in your life, and connected that to the things outside, knowing so, and showing you His knowing so, to try and communicate with you or to, for you to know and get to know Him, who He is, and where He is; how He is, or can be, or what He can do, what and all that He knows, ect, ect...

God Bless!

I'm pleased that you found fulfillment in such personal experiences. I have not. How do these personal experiences prove that your deity is almighty?

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm pleased that you found fulfillment in such personal experiences. I have not. How do these personal experiences prove that your deity is almighty?

I still wonder about that sometimes... This presence/being/person/entity has shown himself to very, very, extremely powerful, and able to control and or manipulate and/or set up and/or use/do or whatever, nearly anything, in this world... As for "Almighty", I cannot say with 100% for sure certainty, or for sure right now, at this point, right now, at this point...?

But I'll let you know when I do, K...?

God Bless!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Question: "What will we be doing in Heaven? What will we do in Heaven?"

Answer: In Luke 23:43, Jesus declared, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." The word Jesus used for "paradise" is paradeisos which means "a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, paradise)". Paradeisos is the Greek word taken from the Hebrew word pardes which means "a park: - forest, orchard" (Strong's). Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me "en paradeisos," not "en nephele" which is Greek for “in clouds.” The point is that Jesus picked and used the word for "a park." Not just any park but "the paradise of God" or park of God (Revelation 2:7) which for us will be a place of future happiness. Does this sound like a boring place? When you think of a park, do you think of boredom?

Jesus said, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Matthew 4:10). It's interesting to note that Jesus did not say "praise and serve." Even the briefest examination of the word praise in the Bible quickly shows it's a verbal thing and is for the most part singing. Worship, however, is from the heart. Worship manifests itself in praise. Serving God is worship, and Scripture is clear we will serve God in heaven. "His servants will serve Him" (Revelation 22:3).

We are unable to fully serve God in this life due to sin, but in heaven "every curse will no longer be" (Revelation 22:3). We will not be under the curse of sin any longer, so everything we do will be worship in heaven. We will never be motivated by anything other than our love for God. Everything we do will be out of our love for God, untainted by our sin nature.

So what will we do? My favorite thing is to learn. "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?" (Romans 11:34), "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). God is the "the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isaiah 57:15). God is bigger than forever, and it will take eternity "to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ" (Ephesians 3:18-19). In other words, we will never stop learning.

God's Word says we won't have to be in His paradise alone. "I shall fully know even as I also am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12). This would seem to indicate that we will not only know our friends and family, we will "fully know" them. In other words, there is no need for secrets in heaven. There is nothing to be ashamed of. There is nothing to hide. We will have eternity to interact with "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues" (Revelation 7:9). No wonder heaven will be a place of infinite learning. Just getting to know everyone will take eternity!

Any further anticipation about what we shall do in God's eternal park, heaven, will be far surpassed when "the King shall say to those on His right hand, 'Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'" (Matthew 25:34). Whatever we will be doing, we can be sure it will be wonderful beyond our imaginations!

www.gotquestions.org/doing-in-Heaven.html

True, Jesus didn't promise the thief eternal life, just that he would be resurrected into the restored earth...paradise. The thief would then have to repent and receive Christ as Lord and receive the Holy Spirit to be saved (the White Throne judgment), as will all others.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Buddhists like myself are more agnostic; we say "we haven't personally experienced a god, so we neither believe nor disbelieve".

Most atheists, I think, are agnostic atheists. This is not to imply that their atheism is any weaker or less certain; it just means that they lack knowledge of God (agnostic) and so do not believe in him (atheist). Ricky Gervais explained it like this, in a recent interview with Steven Colbert: "You say there's a God, and I say, can you prove it? And you say no. So I say, in that case, I don't believe in Him."

In the same interview, Gervais also said: "There have been thousands of gods in history. You disbelieve in 2, 999 of them, and I do the same, but just go one further."

 

[ananda]

I still wonder about that sometimes... This presence/being/person/entity has shown himself to very, very, extremely powerful, and able to control and or manipulate and/or set up and/or use/do or whatever, nearly anything, in this world... As for "Almighty", I cannot say with 100% for sure certainty, or for sure right now, at this point, right now, at this point...?

But I'll let you know when I do, K...?

God Bless!

Sounds good. I like to give the example of an ant possibly awed by the power of a human being. Just because the human can do incredible things the ant cannot do, doesn't make the human almighty.

 

[ananda]

... they lack knowledge of God (agnostic) and so do not believe in him (atheist). ...

Would you agree that "do not believe" seems to have a more active tone than "the topic is irrelevant" (a more Buddhist perspective)?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Would you agree that "do not believe" seems to have a more active tone than "the topic is irrelevant" (a more Buddhist perspective)?

Yes, that sounds reasonable.
I just thought I'd mention it, as it's a common fallacy about atheism.

 

[SPF]

Alright, I want to discuss this. When I grew up being raised in my church personally and everyone else who is a person of Jesus Christ and his faith, the church enforces, almost brainwashes the idea that not only should we behave in certain "good" ways and we will be blessed eternity and peace from God, but even if we don't "feel" it all the time, they preach that he "wants" us to feel it 24/7 at the same high levels and never have it die.

I'm writing this because while I was growing up I realized that I'm not passionate and fired up about going to Heaven. I never understood why people are so excited to go there. I get that people want to meet Jesus and everyone else who got up there, but what else? A lot of church spirit now is that up there, we are only going to be all brothers and sisters in Christ (all other forms of earthly human relationships have been dissolved) singing "Kumbaya" around an eternal campfire, I don't see the appeal in that.

Why are people for Jesus (and God himself hypothetically) so ingrained with wanting to sell people how "exciting" their own idea of paradise is? Do people not put themselves in other people's shoes anymore? It frustrates me because I decided that Heaven (the one often talked about) doesn't sound that appealing right now. Anyway, since Hell and eternal torment is my only other option...

I think the most helpful thing I can do is recommend the book Heaven, by Randy Alcorn. It's the best work I've seen yet concerning the topic of heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Oh yes - I can see from this thread that Christians have a very clear idea of what heaven is like. They're not at all disagreeing with each other about nursery-level fantasies of a perfect life.

There's a lot of really bad theology out there on these topics in popular culture and popular Christianity. The chief sources of our theology, Scripture, the Creeds, etc tend to get ignored in favor of modern ideas of golden streets, pearly gates, spending eternity playing a harp and singing happy songs about God all the time.

The Christian religion, quite simply, has never been big on expounding on details for things which we simply don't know. Our own Scriptures tell us next to nothing about what happens after death. Instead there is an emphasis on bigger picture ideas: God's healing and restoring of all creation. Which is why in both the works of the ancient Hebrew prophets as well as in the New Testament the hope is in a world made whole; not some ethereal land of rainbows and gold. Christian eschatology has always insisted on the redemption and healing of creation, which is why our Scriptures and our Creeds speak of the resurrection of the body, and life in the Age to Come.

The phrase "Age to Come" is a translation of the Greek τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος, literally, "the future age". A concept that is Jewish in origin, the Olam Ha'ba, the age or universe to come. Olam carries the sense of universe, time, age, world, etc.

There is no Platonic return to some original, primordial, immaterial state; but rather there is a teleological outcome of existence coming into a fuller state; what is dead shall live, what is broken is mended, what is sick is healed.

Which is why this Age to Come is understood not as going to some place called "heaven" to twiddle our thumbs for all eternity as blissful ghosts; but rather the solid ground underneath our feet. This world and everything in it.

What all of that ultimately looks like, how it will be, is never given to us in any lengthy detail; but always in picturesque visions or hopeful illustrations. Such as the wolf laying down with the lamb, or lions eating straw like an ox, or a river carrying the leaves of the tree of life to heal all the nations of the earth.

The great thrust of the Christian faith has never been about "here's all the neat prizes you get when it's all over", but instead that God is healing and restoring the world, and about our participation in that. We have hope that the day will come when every sword is beaten into a plowshare, every spear into pruning sheers, no longer with war and violence; in light of that hope our Scriptures and ancient theologians and teachers taught us that we live that hope out into the world here and now. Loving our neighbors, even our own enemies, turning the other cheek, and laying down our lives in love for others.

It is a tragedy that these things have often been obscured by rather silly ideas of earning prizes, or singing kumbaya while on some fluffy cloud above. Because what I just described is what we see written in our Scriptures, in the writings of the ancient fathers, and continues as normal Christian theological teaching among those who bother to know. But there is always this stream of thought that wants to make everything into "If I get all my religious t's crossed and i's dotted then I get my cosmic happy meal in the end."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[VCR-2000]

There's a lot of really bad theology out there on these topics in popular culture and popular Christianity. The chief sources of our theology, Scripture, the Creeds, etc tend to get ignored in favor of modern ideas of golden streets, pearly gates, spending eternity playing a harp and singing happy songs about God all the time.

The Christian religion, quite simply, has never been big on expounding on details for things which we simply don't know. Our own Scriptures tell us next to nothing about what happens after death. Instead there is an emphasis on bigger picture ideas: God's healing and restoring of all creation. Which is why in both the works of the ancient Hebrew prophets as well as in the New Testament the hope is in a world made whole; not some ethereal land of rainbows and gold. Christian eschatology has always insisted on the redemption and healing of creation, which is why our Scriptures and our Creeds speak of the resurrection of the body, and life in the Age to Come.

The phrase "Age to Come" is a translation of the Greek τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος, literally, "the future age". A concept that is Jewish in origin, the Olam Ha'ba, the age or universe to come. Olam carries the sense of universe, time, age, world, etc.

There is no Platonic return to some original, primordial, immaterial state; but rather there is a teleological outcome of existence coming into a fuller state; what is dead shall live, what is broken is mended, what is sick is healed.

Which is why this Age to Come is understood not as going to some place called "heaven" to twiddle our thumbs for all eternity as blissful ghosts; but rather the solid ground underneath our feet. This world and everything in it.

What all of that ultimately looks like, how it will be, is never given to us in any lengthy detail; but always in picturesque visions or hopeful illustrations. Such as the wolf laying down with the lamb, or lions eating straw like an ox, or a river carrying the leaves of the tree of life to heal all the nations of the earth.

The great thrust of the Christian faith has never been about "here's all the neat prizes you get when it's all over", but instead that God is healing and restoring the world, and about our participation in that. We have hope that the day will come when every sword is beaten into a plowshare, every spear into pruning sheers, no longer with war and violence; in light of that hope our Scriptures and ancient theologians and teachers taught us that we live that hope out into the world here and now. Loving our neighbors, even our own enemies, turning the other cheek, and laying down our lives in love for others.

It is a tragedy that these things have often been obscured by rather silly ideas of earning prizes, or singing kumbaya while on some fluffy cloud above. Because what I just described is what we see written in our Scriptures, in the writings of the ancient fathers, and continues as normal Christian theological teaching among those who bother to know. But there is always this stream of thought that wants to make everything into "If I get all my religious t's crossed and i's dotted then I get my cosmic happy meal in the end."

-CryptoLutheran

I never thought very much about the "restored earth" vision. I don't think it's even very popular. You'll probably catch some from certain people on here.

 

[He is the way]

Why is desiring Heaven so important?

I suppose that would not be very important to anyone who does not believe in God. I believe in God, I believe He is Love and loves all of us. I also believe He wants us to learn what Love is , and we can by living the commandments.
(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 5)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

So in my opinion it is important to know God and be where He is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I never thought very much about the "restored earth" vision. I don't think it's even very popular. You'll probably catch some from certain people on here.

It's the historic and orthodox teaching of the Christian Church, and is official teaching in every mainstream branch of the Christian religion--Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.

New Testament scholar and [now] retired Anglican bishop N.T. Wright notes that the modern rejection of resurrection (or at least the tacit or implied rejection of it) is incredibly new. Even just a little over a hundred years ago resurrection was still part of the common language of Western Christianity.

The idea that we float up to some ethereal party in the sky and live forever as disembodied spirits is part of the popular religion today, but it is--if anything--little more than ancient heresy repackaged. The idea that our true selves are "souls" encased in bodies and that the soul escapes the body to go and dwell in a realm of pure spirit forever is a thoroughly Gnostic doctrine, with a great deal of influence from Plato. While Christianity has always maintained that between death and resurrection there is an intermediate state; the ultimate hope is the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all creation. That's always been basic, orthodox Christian teaching.

Sure, there are some who have gotten flustered when I've brought this up, but ask any Christian who is theologically literate and they'll say the same thing I've said. Regardless of whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. After all, it's right there in the ancient Creeds.

The Apostles' Creed
"We believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and was buried,
He descended into hell, and on the third day rose from the dead,
He ascended into the heavens, where He sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty,
from whence He will return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
the life everlasting.
Amen."

In the original Latin it's more explicit, reading carnis resurrectionem, literally, "resurrection of the flesh". The Apostles' Creed is read almost every Sunday in Catholic and Protestant churches around the globe.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[VCR-2000]

It's the historic and orthodox teaching of the Christian Church, and is official teaching in every mainstream branch of the Christian religion--Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.

New Testament scholar and [now] retired Anglican bishop N.T. Wright notes that the modern rejection of resurrection (or at least the tacit or implied rejection of it) is incredibly new. Even just a little over a hundred years ago resurrection was still part of the common language of Western Christianity.

The idea that we float up to some ethereal party in the sky and live forever as disembodied spirits is part of the popular religion today, but it is--if anything--little more than ancient heresy repackaged. The idea that our true selves are "souls" encased in bodies and that the soul escapes the body to go and dwell in a realm of pure spirit forever is a thoroughly Gnostic doctrine, with a great deal of influence from Plato. While Christianity has always maintained that between death and resurrection there is an intermediate state; the ultimate hope is the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all creation. That's always been basic, orthodox Christian teaching.

Sure, there are some who have gotten flustered when I've brought this up, but ask any Christian who is theologically literate and they'll say the same thing I've said. Regardless of whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. After all, it's right there in the ancient Creeds.

The Apostles' Creed
"We believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and was buried,
He descended into hell, and on the third day rose from the dead,
He ascended into the heavens, where He sits at the right hand of the Father Almighty,
from whence He will return to judge the living and the dead.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
the life everlasting.
Amen."

In the original Latin it's more explicit, reading carnis resurrectionem, literally, "resurrection of the flesh". The Apostles' Creed is read almost every Sunday in Catholic and Protestant churches around the globe.

-CryptoLutheran

So according to that, this earth too is what is supposed to be spiritually eternal/permanent anyway? Is that part of the gist here?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Alright, I want to discuss this. When I grew up being raised in my church personally and everyone else who is a person of Jesus Christ and his faith, the church enforces, almost brainwashes the idea that not only should we behave in certain "good" ways and we will be blessed eternity and peace from God, but even if we don't "feel" it all the time, they preach that he "wants" us to feel it 24/7 at the same high levels and never have it die.

I'm writing this because while I was growing up I realized that I'm not passionate and fired up about going to Heaven. I never understood why people are so excited to go there. I get that people want to meet Jesus and everyone else who got up there, but what else? A lot of church spirit now is that up there, we are only going to be all brothers and sisters in Christ (all other forms of earthly human relationships have been dissolved) singing "Kumbaya" around an eternal campfire, I don't see the appeal in that.

Why are people for Jesus (and God himself hypothetically) so ingrained with wanting to sell people how "exciting" their own idea of paradise is? Do people not put themselves in other people's shoes anymore? It frustrates me because I decided that Heaven (the one often talked about) doesn't sound that appealing right now. Anyway, since Hell and eternal torment is my only other option...

I think the main issue is rather people are scared to go to hell with heaven being the alternative.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So according to that, this earth too is what is supposed to be spiritually eternal/permanent anyway? Is that part of the gist here?

Right. That's the whole point of the Incarnation. God became man. In becoming human God the Son took on all of our humanity, and became part of our world, our universe, for the purpose of redeeming it. It's not about leaving this world to enjoy something else, it's not about us going up, it's about God coming down. God came down in the Incarnation, and in the penultimate vision of the Apocalypse St. John speaks of God dwelling with men on the earth, "Look! The residence of God is among human beings. He will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them." (Revelation 21:3)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neogaia777]

Heaven and earth will be one on earth soon....

God Bless!

 

[clayjars]

Alright, I want to discuss this. When I grew up being raised in my church personally and everyone else who is a person of Jesus Christ and his faith, the church enforces, almost brainwashes the idea that not only should we behave in certain "good" ways and we will be blessed eternity and peace from God, but even if we don't "feel" it all the time, they preach that he "wants" us to feel it 24/7 at the same high levels and never have it die.

I'm writing this because while I was growing up I realized that I'm not passionate and fired up about going to Heaven. I never understood why people are so excited to go there. I get that people want to meet Jesus and everyone else who got up there, but what else? A lot of church spirit now is that up there, we are only going to be all brothers and sisters in Christ (all other forms of earthly human relationships have been dissolved) singing "Kumbaya" around an eternal campfire, I don't see the appeal in that.

Why are people for Jesus (and God himself hypothetically) so ingrained with wanting to sell people how "exciting" their own idea of paradise is? Do people not put themselves in other people's shoes anymore? It frustrates me because I decided that Heaven (the one often talked about) doesn't sound that appealing right now. Anyway, since Hell and eternal torment is my only other option...

I grew up in a church too and thought I was a Christian for the longest time. I knew that something was wrong in my relationship with God, but I didn't know what that was. I feared God. I knew that if there was a hell, I would surely go there. In spite of all my efforts, I found little assurance that I would be spared the eternal torment. Eventually, I had a transforming encounter with Christ Jesus. Then I knew what was missing all my church life. It was the experience of God's grace and His love. It gave me a whole new perspective on God, on myself, the present and hereafter. Few years back I found a novel on the self titled "The Shack" by W. Young. I liked how the author weaves the doctrinal truths into the narrative and it really challenged how I view and understand God. Maybe you can give it a read and perhaps it will give you clearer insight into your question.