Why I'm Not (Quite) a Libertarian

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I don't think liberty is the greatest good. A good is something toward which you aim, the end of your intentions and goals. Liberty is understood in two ways: 1) freedom *from* constraints (i.e., the soul's right to breathe), and 2) freedom of the will to actualize itself. The two are closely related but I don't think identical, simply given that the freest person can live a life of luxury without making a single serious decision; he's free in the sense that he can do what he wants, but not free in the sense that he significantly does anything.

Appealing to liberty as the highest good means that each person should be as left alone as possible and able to do what he wants without harming someone else. The latter part is problematic because "harm" is interpreted by libertarians as physical harm, not psychological harm. This might be because many libertarians don't really believe that the will is a finite thing (see the work of psychologist Roy Baumeister for this idea), that because Will Smith can come from nothing and be his own hero that we're all capable of doing this. This heroistic thinking doesn't take into account social influence, family upbringing, socioeconomic status, and so on. It just appeals to the exception and makes it the rule. As Malcolm Gladwell posits, outliers really aren't outliers if you consider the hidden advantages given to them.

To the degree that I'm rich, I'm part of a cohort that's psychologically harming the poor, who receive less for their work relative to me, and with this comes disadvantage in the form of lower SES and all sorts of bad stuff that correlates with it, like family violence, and (ultimately) lack of motivation on the individual in the poor cohort compared to the rich one. So you can't just really leave people alone, given the inequality that inevitably results. The libertarian will disagree, because the libertarian thinks the will can overcome all things. It can't, and a person is responsible insofar as he's response able regarding his choices and environment. There are limitations on human freedom, even if the exception makes it through and becomes a self-made billionaire. And it's bordering on wickedness to blame the individual well beyond his capabilities for not overcoming his limitations. That appeal to responsibility is really the hypocritical rejection of responsibility from those who blame in such a way -- the responsibility of those who have a more fortunate life to help out those who have a less fortunate one. The preachers of responsibility ironically let off the hook those who are most responsible but refuse their responsibility.

Lastly, freedom for its own sake is vacuous, because freedom (in the will sense) always implies freedom toward a goal, a good. To say that freedom is a good doesn't tell you anything, because it doesn't contextualize how this freedom will be used. Obviously the libertarian doesn't value the freedom to rape, but he does value the freedom to participate in a market exchange. Freedom always comes packaged with value. And the values of libertarianism are implicit but clear: let me be free enough to get as much property and income as I can and do what I like without governmental constraint (regulation, taxation). But again we're back at the question of psychological freedom, where the upper echelons of the rich and all the super-rich psychologically limit the poor.

The greatest good isn't liberty. The greatest good is happiness. Each person should be able to attain happiness as much as he reasonably can, but many times you have to limit freedom in order to attain happiness. So the super-rich have to be taxed at a higher rate to make up for the market's unfair treatment of the poorest in society; so corporations have to be fined for externalities so other people have clean air. The point is neither the statist dream of totalitarian constraint nor the anarchist's dream of total freedom through nonexistent government. (And let's not forget that a society without a government is no society at all.) The system that allows for actualization of happiness for the greatest amount of people lies somewhere in the middle.

"But you're for governmental force if you're for taxation or regulation." Well, first of all, libertarians believe in the use of governmental force if their sense of justice (relative to their values) is impinged. Force is inherent in government; without force or the threat of force, you can't govern. Therefore, libertarians must part ways with government completely and embrace anarchism or take back their point. Secondly, nobody is forcing you to do anything if you're free to leave this country.
 
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I don't think liberty is the greatest good. A good is something toward which you aim, the end of your intentions and goals. Liberty is understood in two ways: 1) freedom *from* constraints (i.e., the soul's right to breathe), and 2) freedom of the will to actualize itself. The two are closely related but I don't think identical, simply given that the freest person can live a life of luxury without making a single serious decision; he's free in the sense that he can do what he wants, but not free in the sense that he significantly does anything.

Appealing to liberty as the highest good means that each person should be as left alone as possible and able to do what he wants without harming someone else. The latter part is problematic because "harm" is interpreted by libertarians as physical harm, not psychological harm. This might be because many libertarians don't really believe that the will is a finite thing (see the work of psychologist Roy Baumeister for this idea), that because Will Smith can come from nothing and be his own hero that we're all capable of doing this. This heroistic thinking doesn't take into account social influence, family upbringing, socioeconomic status, and so on. It just appeals to the exception and makes it the rule. As Malcolm Gladwell posits, outliers really aren't outliers if you consider the hidden advantages given to them.

To the degree that I'm rich, I'm part of a cohort that's psychologically harming the poor, who receive less for their work relative to me, and with this comes disadvantage in the form of lower SES and all sorts of bad stuff that correlates with it, like family violence, and (ultimately) lack of motivation on the individual in the poor cohort compared to the rich one. So you can't just really leave people alone, given the inequality that inevitably results. The libertarian will disagree, because the libertarian thinks the will can overcome all things. It can't, and a person is responsible insofar as he's response able regarding his choices and environment. There are limitations on human freedom, even if the exception makes it through and becomes a self-made billionaire. And it's bordering on wickedness to blame the individual well beyond his capabilities for not overcoming his limitations. That appeal to responsibility is really the hypocritical rejection of responsibility from those who blame in such a way -- the responsibility of those who have a more fortunate life to help out those who have a less fortunate one. The preachers of responsibility ironically let off the hook those who are most responsible but refuse their responsibility.

Lastly, freedom for its own sake is vacuous, because freedom (in the will sense) always implies freedom toward a goal, a good. To say that freedom is a good doesn't tell you anything, because it doesn't contextualize how this freedom will be used. Obviously the libertarian doesn't value the freedom to rape, but he does value the freedom to participate in a market exchange. Freedom always comes packaged with value. And the values of libertarianism are implicit but clear: let me be free enough to get as much property and income as I can and do what I like without governmental constraint (regulation, taxation). But again we're back at the question of psychological freedom, where the upper echelons of the rich and all the super-rich psychologically limit the poor.

The greatest good isn't liberty. The greatest good is happiness. Each person should be able to attain happiness as much as he reasonably can, but many times you have to limit freedom in order to attain happiness. So the super-rich have to be taxed at a higher rate to make up for the market's unfair treatment of the poorest in society; so corporations have to be fined for externalities so other people have clean air. The point is neither the statist dream of totalitarian constraint nor the anarchist's dream of total freedom through nonexistent government. (And let's not forget that a society without a government is no society at all.) The system that allows for actualization of happiness for the greatest amount of people lies somewhere in the middle.

"But you're for governmental force if you're for taxation or regulation." Well, first of all, libertarians believe in the use of governmental force if their sense of justice (relative to their values) is impinged. Force is inherent in government; without force or the threat of force, you can't govern. Therefore, libertarians must part ways with government completely and embrace anarchism or take back their point. Secondly, nobody is forcing you to do anything if you're free to leave this country.
Interesting. One of my problems I have with libertarianism is that it is liberty of the wealthy/well educated the exceptional. the poor/poorly educated do not have the resources to enjoy said liberties.
 
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Interesting. One of my problems I have with libertarianism is that it is liberty of the wealthy/well educated the exceptional. the poor/poorly educated do not have the resources to enjoy said liberties.

That's what happens when you have liberty as the highest value. The more fortunate (much moreso than hardworking) rise to the top. The liberty is understood in a narrow sense of limited governmental influence on personal freedom while also maximizing the belief in the individual to transcend his (genetic, environmental, SES, etc.) situation. The stats are clear: if you start off with at a good place, you're much more likely to end up there.
 
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That's what happens when you have liberty as the highest value. The more fortunate (much moreso than hardworking) rise to the top. The liberty is understood in a narrow sense of limited governmental influence on personal freedom while also maximizing the belief in the individual to transcend his (genetic, environmental, SES, etc.) situation. The stats are clear: if you start off with at a good place, you're much more likely to end up there.
Indeed, wealth begets wealth.
 
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SkyWriting

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But again we're back at the question of psychological freedom, where the upper echelons of the rich and all the super-rich psychologically limit the poor.

Or inspire them. Or house them, employ them, feed them, etc.
 
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SkyWriting

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Interesting. One of my problems I have with libertarianism is that it is liberty of the wealthy/well educated the exceptional. the poor/poorly educated do not have the resources to enjoy said liberties.

Far far from it. You would be amazed at the liberties of thieves, prostitutes, and drug dealers.
Some keep their wealth close to family, others cannot help but share their last dollar.
The poor are quite free to live as they choose compared to people who have more than $20.
 
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The greatest good isn't liberty. The greatest good is happiness. Each person should be able to attain happiness as much as he reasonably can, but many times you have to limit freedom in order to attain happiness. So the super-rich have to be taxed at a higher rate to make up for the market's unfair treatment of the poorest in society; so corporations have to be fined for externalities so other people have clean air.

Somehow you think the rich are happy and the poor are not. Peshaw.
There is no such correlation. The poor are miserable or happy in
exactly the same ratio as everyone else.
 
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FireDragon76

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that makes sense. poor people argue about money. divorce is more common among lower incomes.

I'm not a political libertarian, it doesn't make sense and doesn't comport with human nature. But I'd rather be libertarian than authoritarian.
 
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that makes sense. poor people argue about money. divorce is more common among lower incomes.

I'm not a political libertarian, it doesn't make sense and doesn't comport with human nature. But I'd rather be libertarian than authoritarian.
The trick is finding the right mix. I see pure libertarianism as just one more utopian idea, like communism.

And one persons utopia is another's hell on earth.
 
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The issue most people have with political libertarianism is that they often try to judge it by the extremes...however, like any other ideology, there is nuance and levels.

When I often talk with people about it, the first things they tend to bring up are the concepts of anarcho-capitalism and "oh, so you want to make it legal for an 8 year old to buy cocaine?!?!?!"

Now, I'm a libertarian, but the two things I mentioned above certainly aren't found anywhere among my political ideals.

...like I said, levels.

You can have an animal rights person who simply chooses to not eat meat, but leaves everyone alone...and you can have animal rights people who firebomb medical research facilities and throw buckets of fake blood on people.
 
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the problem I have with libertarianism is from a Christian standpoint, potentially it is a denial of what it means to be a human being created in the image of God. After the ancestral fall from grace, the first sin of jealousy and then murder was covered over by Cain with a lack of accountability for his brother. And from a traditional Christian standpoint, the state does have the right to restrain evil, even at the cost of personal autonomy. Rights cannot be thought of in strictly negative terms, as freedom from... they must also include the freedom to live a virtuous life.
 
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Somehow you think the rich are happy and the poor are not. Peshaw.
There is no such correlation. The poor are miserable or happy in
exactly the same ratio as everyone else.

[serious] hit the point before I could, but assuming money doesn't bring happiness, what's the point of aspiring to be rich?
 
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Or inspire them. Or house them, employ them, feed them, etc.

Inspiration works only if it's realistically possible for the poor person to attain the seat of the rich person, which isn't the case in our society with abysmal social mobility. Unattainable ideals become burdensome, and even give way to resentment, which is a large reason why violence and other bad stuff correlates with income inequality.

Housing and feeding them -- not enough to close the income gap by far. The rich are too clingy with their cash, or too stuck up in the belief that they deserve every penny they get -- and that might be the case with the usual "slightly" rich person who worked his way up the hierarchy, but probably never the case with the super-rich, who really are the problem when it comes to income inequality.

Employing them doesn't work either, because 70% of a corporation's cost is payroll related, and there's been a race to the bottom with income for employees of corporations, leading to lower paying jobs. Yeah, there's a global market and fierce competition, but you can overcome a good deal of this through regulation.
 
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The issue most people have with political libertarianism is that they often try to judge it by the extremes...however, like any other ideology, there is nuance and levels.

When I often talk with people about it, the first things they tend to bring up are the concepts of anarcho-capitalism and "oh, so you want to make it legal for an 8 year old to buy cocaine?!?!?!"

Now, I'm a libertarian, but the two things I mentioned above certainly aren't found anywhere among my political ideals.

...like I said, levels.

You can have an animal rights person who simply chooses to not eat meat, but leaves everyone alone...and you can have animal rights people who firebomb medical research facilities and throw buckets of fake blood on people.

I don't think any libertarian believes allowing children to buy cocaine, but for the sake of argument, why not? Or why not allow drug companies to dispense medications without a doctor's prescription?
 
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The trick is finding the right mix. I see pure libertarianism as just one more utopian idea, like communism.

And one persons utopia is another's hell on earth.

Pure libertarianism -- pure freedom from any constraints -- is anarchism. There are people, like Chomsky, who make decent cases for anarchism.

The question nobody asks is what justification a libertartian has in believing the government has a right to use force in the limited way it does, especially considering it's libertarians who are most likely to appeal to the use of force via government as an argument against any government that's broader than their own picture of how government should be.

The argument that you shouldn't allow the government to do X regulation or Y law because this means you better do X or Y or there's a gun in your face doesn't work, because all government is implicitly violent. The question is whether your conception of government involving the threat of force has justification, and that's where we get to a question of values, which you can't really argue out of a person at the deepest level.
 
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Locke's liberal account of government isn't even compatible with libertarianism. People naturally come together and give up some of their "natural" rights (lex talonis type stuff) in the interests of the common good. What libertarianism is from this perspective, is insanity, because it is resisting reason.
 
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ananda

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... "harm" is interpreted by libertarians as physical harm, not psychological harm. ... To the degree that I'm rich, I'm part of a cohort that's psychologically harming the poor, who receive less for their work relative to me ... And the values of libertarianism are implicit but clear: let me be free enough to get as much property and income as I can and do what I like without governmental constraint (regulation, taxation) ... The greatest good isn't liberty. The greatest good is happiness. Each person should be able to attain happiness as much as he reasonably can, but many times you have to limit freedom in order to attain happiness. So the super-rich have to be taxed at a higher rate to make up for the market's unfair treatment of the poorest in society; so corporations have to be fined for externalities so other people have clean air.
The real argument is this: Corporate fictions are inherently incompatible with libertarianism. IMO a truly libertarian society and government would not allow or recognize the creation of this great evil.

An individual incorporates a company to grow beyond his natural limits, as he seeks to gain far more wealth than he could possibly achieve if he was simply a sole proprietor. They also seek the legal shielding to separate their personal assets from so-called "corporate assets". A corporate fiction becomes a government in itself, and inherently possesses more "legal standing" - and thus, more legal influence - than an individual man or woman, upending the whole notion of libertarian freedom.

In a true, non-corporate libertarian society, individuals in small local communities supports each other, promoting strong personal & social ethics with shared standards - since they know they can only trust, depend on, and protect each one another, especially in times of need. It promotes honest dealings among sole proprietors and other individuals as they have no need or want to cut corners in their products sold to their local community (which is also seen as extended family). The sole proprietor is kept honest, knowing that their personal and "business" wealth is one and the same and they also know that their personal wealth is thus at risk if that trust is ever violated. A sole proprietor can't grow too much, lest they become despised by their community and seen as possessing unbridled greed. Man and his wealth is thus balanced by natural limits (e.g. population, personal resources, social limits and expectations, etc.). This system promotes small, loving, close-knit communities in tune with nature and the land, celebrates love and family, spirituality, and minimal impacts on the Earth and its resources. Everyone has a "fair chance" in a true libertarian society, as far as government is concerned.

Obviously, this non-corporate system wouldn't work well for those interested in anonymously amassing great private fortunes for themselves and/or shareholders. The corporate system promotes the destruction of personal and cooperative responsibility, destroys local community and culture, and causes the pillaging of Earth's resources and the growth of other personal and cultural immoralities for the sake of personal wealth. "Cutting corners" in a product is always encouraged in a corporation, legally shielded as they constantly seek to bend legal limits - instead of elevating expectations based on personal, individual relationships. This system promotes maximal amassing of personal resources, maximal personal space, maximal consumption, maximal consumerism, and creates many of the inequalities and evils you mention.

As Jeremy Bentham stated, "fictions are to law what fraud is to trade".
 
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ananda

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The stats are clear: if you start off with at a good place, you're much more likely to end up there.

Inspiration works only if it's realistically possible for the poor person to attain the seat of the rich person, which isn't the case in our society with abysmal social mobility. Unattainable ideals become burdensome, and even give way to resentment, which is a large reason why violence and other bad stuff correlates with income inequality.

Housing and feeding them -- not enough to close the income gap by far. The rich are too clingy with their cash, or too stuck up in the belief that they deserve every penny they get -- and that might be the case with the usual "slightly" rich person who worked his way up the hierarchy, but probably never the case with the super-rich, who really are the problem when it comes to income inequality.

Employing them doesn't work either, because 70% of a corporation's cost is payroll related, and there's been a race to the bottom with income for employees of corporations, leading to lower paying jobs. Yeah, there's a global market and fierce competition, but you can overcome a good deal of this through regulation.

None of this would be a problem, if corporate fictions were eliminated, and we reverted back to a individual libertarian system.

Nobody could get "too rich", compassion among your fellow neighbors (as extended family) would not allow anyone to get "too poor", and there would be natural social checks and balances which promote virtuous behavior among all. Virtuous behavior would be rewarded, vice would be shunned.

The corporate fiction, shielded by the government, promotes destruction of such a natural, balanced system.
 
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That's what happens when you have liberty as the highest value. The more fortunate (much moreso than hardworking) rise to the top. The liberty is understood in a narrow sense of limited governmental influence on personal freedom while also maximizing the belief in the individual to transcend his (genetic, environmental, SES, etc.) situation. The stats are clear: if you start off with at a good place, you're much more likely to end up there.

Once you get to the top it's pretty easy to influence who else does.

Liberty isn't your highest value then wealth is.
 
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