Why I Was Wrong About Ecumenism

[Nick Moser]

Ecumenical Movement is an effort to bring Christian Churches back into the union that existed at least prior to the Council of Chalcedon. A noble endeavour, to be sure.

But why attempt to join everyone together into one body, while their minds, their beliefs, and their practices remain dissimilar and contradictory? This is not unity! How can there be one body but different minds? This is impossible! Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head. It turns a blind eye to differences in fath, belief, doctrine, and practice, as if these things do not matter. On the contrary, these things are of the utmost importance! These things are the very basis and foundation of our lives; they are the Church. If we cast these things aside, what is left? All that is left is a shallow, hollow shell of what was formerly the fullness of the Church. If we cast these things aside, we are casting aside our own salvation.

Against Ecumenism

 

[Nick Moser]

I also don't want to end up like the Vatican II RC and the Anglicans. I don't want to see my church sacrifice tradition in the name of modernity and relevancy. There is no need to fly sodomite-flags on our churches and/or promote Atheism. Modernity ought to be avoided

Albeit I was pleased to see the Pope denounce Abortion

 

[Dave-W]

Ephesians 4:3
being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ecumenical Movement is an effort to bring Christian Churches back into the union that existed at least prior to the Council of Chalcedon. A noble endeavour, to be sure.

But why attempt to join everyone together into one body, while their minds, their beliefs, and their practices remain dissimilar and contradictory? This is not unity! How can there be one body but different minds? This is impossible! Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head. It turns a blind eye to differences in fath, belief, doctrine, and practice, as if these things do not matter. On the contrary, these things are of the utmost importance! These things are the very basis and foundation of our lives; they are the Church. If we cast these things aside, what is left? All that is left is a shallow, hollow shell of what was formerly the fullness of the Church. If we cast these things aside, we are casting aside our own salvation.

Against Ecumenism

I hate to crash this party, but didn't Jesus say, "...they will know you by your love for one another?" In fact, I don't see Jesus or the Apostles putting as much exacting emphasis on 'correct doctrine' as some sectarian minded churches have been doing ever since.....well, since the time of Peter and Paul.

So, maybe we need to place less emphasis on ontological Christian doctrines and more upon practical, ethical doctrines that comport with God's Will for the facilitation of our ongoing unity and sanctification in Christ. Maybe?

 

[Barney2.0]

Those who want to split with the Orthodox Church, may split a million times over, however the Orthodox Church never went and will never go back into communion with heresy.

 

[Halbhh]

Ecumenical Movement is an effort to bring Christian Churches back into the union that existed at least prior to the Council of Chalcedon. A noble endeavour, to be sure.

But why attempt to join everyone together into one body, while their minds, their beliefs, and their practices remain dissimilar and contradictory? This is not unity! How can there be one body but different minds? This is impossible! Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head. It turns a blind eye to differences in fath, belief, doctrine, and practice, as if these things do not matter. On the contrary, these things are of the utmost importance! These things are the very basis and foundation of our lives; they are the Church. If we cast these things aside, what is left? All that is left is a shallow, hollow shell of what was formerly the fullness of the Church. If we cast these things aside, we are casting aside our own salvation.

Against Ecumenism

Consider a 2nd time this piece of how you see it -- "..., "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head.'

But consider, Christ, the head, doesn't have differing beliefs...about how to do as He said to do, about what He said. See? The reason men split up into groups with differing ideas/beliefs (as they do inside large churches also even without leaving), is because for those who are (themselves) leaving a church with real believers following Christ in it, or splitting it even as they stay (such as for politics, etc.), or those in a church pushing some real believers out -- those taking any of these actions are trying to be the Head, but only Christ is the Head.

He said, "Love one another", and in case we wanted to avoid the full meaning, He made it very clear with "Love your enemies" so we can't think it means we don't have to love those that we are at odds with about whatever. When He said "take up your cross and follow me" He knew at times we would suffer for the sake of others -- suffer instead of condemning them, suffer instead of striking back, suffer instead of leaving, suffer instead of ejecting them. That we would suffer for others at times, and bear one another's burdens, as needed.

The challenge and the good in following Christ is every day -- is in how we love not only those who love us, but even love those who do not (yet) love us.

But, it's also something we can do, as we rely on Him, abide in Him, keep His words in our hearts, look to Him.

 

[dreadnought]

Ecumenical Movement is an effort to bring Christian Churches back into the union that existed at least prior to the Council of Chalcedon. A noble endeavour, to be sure.

But why attempt to join everyone together into one body, while their minds, their beliefs, and their practices remain dissimilar and contradictory? This is not unity! How can there be one body but different minds? This is impossible! Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head. It turns a blind eye to differences in fath, belief, doctrine, and practice, as if these things do not matter. On the contrary, these things are of the utmost importance! These things are the very basis and foundation of our lives; they are the Church. If we cast these things aside, what is left? All that is left is a shallow, hollow shell of what was formerly the fullness of the Church. If we cast these things aside, we are casting aside our own salvation.

Against Ecumenism

People sometimes think we should all unite in to one church, but does the Lord want it that way here on earth? Don't forget the Tower of Babel.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Those who want to split with the Orthodox Church, may split a million times over, however the Orthodox Church never went and will never go back into communion with heresy.

It's funny that, isn't it? I can accept you guys with all your extra-religious trappings and pageantry, but you guys can't accept me simply because I don't run in your specific circles and repeat the exacting doctrinal formulas...even though we're both Trinitarian believers in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and even though I too incorporate the value of the Creeds into my historical perspective of our faith.

Ok. Hugs to you anyway, Brother!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I agree, ecumenism should be conducted with the goal of converting the other and not uniting for the sake of uniting alone.

People sometimes think we should all unite in to one church, but does the Lord want it that way here on earth? Don't forget the Tower of Babel.

This seems like a bad comparison. The Church was instituted by Christ and the Tower of Babel was created by men for the purposes of glorifying man (rather than God).

It doesn't seem right that God wanted Christianity to be fractured like it is.

 

[Halbhh]

People sometimes think we should all unite in to one church, but does the Lord want it that way here on earth? Don't forget the Tower of Babel.

Right, we don't all need in some city or suburb to unite all the believers into one huge local church. Not at all. Rather, the churches themselves should come to see other churches nearby as their brothers and sisters (if they don't already), and aid one another as opportunities arise, and perhaps have some joint projects, as opportunities arise.

(But it's a good thing to have many churches in a city in that once a congregation is a thousand or more, it's getting really big, and a key thing we need to be doing is fellowship. Of course, many churches do this with multiple services, as if several churches meet each week.)

 

[Barney2.0]

It's funny that, isn't it? I can accept you guys with all your extra-religious trappings and pageantry, but you guys can't accept me simply because I don't run in your specific circles and repeat the exacting doctrinal formulas...even though we're both Trinitarian believers in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Ok. Hugs to you anyway, Brother!

Nestorius was also a Trinitarian.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nestorius was also a Trinitarian.

Yes, see my edit to my previous post.

 

[Sanoy]

We may not be of one mind, but we are of one heart. I am non denominational, and it's very easy to see one body in the love and devotion each share. While there may be differences in theology it is very easy to see the specializations born out by those differences, so much that denominations are now acting like specialized parts of the body. Each has their strengths, and their weaknesses are covered by the rest of the body so that the world may not lack.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ecumenical Movement is an effort to bring Christian Churches back into the union that existed at least prior to the Council of Chalcedon. A noble endeavour, to be sure.

But why attempt to join everyone together into one body, while their minds, their beliefs, and their practices remain dissimilar and contradictory? This is not unity! How can there be one body but different minds? This is impossible! Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body, the church." In order to belong to this body of which Christ is the head, we must be of one body, believing the same things. For as a head cannot have multiple bodies, so we cannot differ in beliefs yet belong to the same head. It turns a blind eye to differences in fath, belief, doctrine, and practice, as if these things do not matter. On the contrary, these things are of the utmost importance! These things are the very basis and foundation of our lives; they are the Church. If we cast these things aside, what is left? All that is left is a shallow, hollow shell of what was formerly the fullness of the Church. If we cast these things aside, we are casting aside our own salvation.

Against Ecumenism

The two sticks in Ezek. 37 has, in English, Ezekiel taking the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph and joining them in his hand. However, the word for "join" is qarav, which literally means, "to draw near." So, Ezekiel was actually taking these two people groups and drawing them near, one to another... where they remained unique but living in a sense of mutual respect and once they did that... God made them one (truly "echad") in His hand.

We don't have to agree on who the two sticks are, but the spirit of that story parlays over to all of God's people. We will simply not all look, think and act alike on every major doctrine. But what we can do is look beyond our differences, see the larger picture, and work together for the good of the whole. In other words... live in mutual respect and understanding.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yes, see my edit to my previous post.

You’d have to be pretty specific on creeds since each denomination has their own thing going on.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We may not be of one mind, but we are of one heart. I am non denominational, and it's very easy to see one body in the love and devotion each share. While there may be differences in theology it is very easy to see the specializations born out by those differences, so much that denominations are now acting like specialized parts of the body. Each has their strengths, and their weaknesses are covered by the rest of the body so that the world may not lack.

I like this analogy of yours, Sanoy. It's like an extended version of Paul's 'body of Christ' metaphor. And with this kind of concept in mind, maybe we need a better term than what Ecumenism has thus far provided as a platform of unity for the Church as a whole. Maybe something more along the lines of Complementarianism, or something like that.

 

[ubicaritas]

Doctrine is important and I agree we need a substantive amount for true unity but I still think love is the most important thing. Part of the modern ecumenical movement is no longer organizational unity without diversity, but just simply cooperating together as a Christian witness in the world.

Some of this is reflected, for instance, in our joint declaration with the Catholic Church. We can recognize diversity of emphasis on some doctrinal points within the body of Christ, without having to abandon the validity of our received tradition.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You’d have to be pretty specific on creeds since each denomination has their own thing going on.

Yeah.................that's where we differ. I see the historic Creeds more as thoughtful and useful theological heuristics rather than as supremely authoritative measures of precise doctrine.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yeah.................that's where we differ. I see the historic Creeds more as thoughtful and useful theological heuristics rather than as supremely authoritative measures of precise doctrine.

Supremely authoritative measures of precise doctrine, as you call them are what keep the Church what it is, strong and unified, unlike many other denominations.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Supremely authoritative measures of precise doctrine, as you call them are what keep the Church what it is, strong and unified, unlike many other denominations.

Oh, that's why the Schism of 1054 and the Protestant Reformation, not to mention Paul and Barnabas' feud happened, right? Because the "authoritative measures of precise doctrine" had already been officially installed by the Church to prevent our----dare I say----inevitable disagreements, right?