Why I was pro-life even while flirting with secular humanism

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

For the record, my stance is the following:
I'm against abortion
I'm against euthanasia (although I have sympathy for this cause)
I'm against capital punishment except in extreme cases

Instead of talking about all of those, this thread is about abortion in general.

I have, for a very long time (I'm almost 30 now), viewed abortion as a symptom of a larger societal problem, and I don't mean a "culture of death" that gets bandied around so much. The whole "culture of death" axiom makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it; it's reactionary hyperbole, and just mentioning it seems to elicit a frothy rage from some quarters. A lot of people uncharitably view abortion as women being selfish. I don't necessarily think this is the case. I think for a lot of women, fear drives abortion more than selfishness.

I think that abortion in some cases is about selfishness, but more than that, I view the existence of abortion as a symptom of a greater societal issue: our society does not respect women and femininity in general, and it doesn't respect motherhood specifically. I view the idea that abortion is done primarily because women are selfish as disrespectful towards women and femininity. I think it's a myopic view to take. And while I acknowledge that it occasionally boils down to that (as when people have MULTIPLE abortions -- what the heck?), I don't think that encompasses the reasoning behind the vast majority of abortions.

Abortion on a large scale is an incredibly complex conundrum of modern society. Women are adamantly told that they need to get an education and a job, but if they take this route, they're typically derided for their later choice to become mothers. You see this attitude a lot with second-wave feminists. For what it's worth, I think that some women have the vocation of motherhood alone; however, other women need other forms of vocation to experience validation and happiness in everyday life. There are many women who enjoy the dual vocation of motherhood and career.

However, I don't think that American society respects parenthood in general and motherhood specifically. We have limited parental leave in this country, and while I'm not suggesting that we take the same route as other countries to raise taxes to offer parental leave, there are other alternatives. Anyway, just a few thoughts.

As for a blog I somewhat agree with on the topic of secular pro-life stances:
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2015/09/abortion-is-symptom-not-solution.html

One of the opening lines is:
"When a woman has an abortion because she feels that it's the only way to make it in this world, we as a society have failed her."

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

And, I could go into more here, but that was just something that was running through my brain at the moment.

 

[buzuxi02]

I dont really see a cure for this problem. Every western society has a high abortion rate except for Ireland. Which is why Ireland is the only western nation that (barely) has a birthrate that can sustain the native population rate at even.
This problem can only be minimized for people that practise traditional culture. Where an expectation that matrimony is where relations will take place to form a family.
Any society that expects its citizens to marry at 35 but start dating at 14 will never be concerned about abortion.
Other than that I'm not even sure western secular society even views low abortion rates as a good thing.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

Actually ... Austria, Poland and Luxembourg all have much lower incidence of abortion per 1000 women than Ireland does. And while I agree with you that children being born in matrimony would be ideal, we do not live in an ideal society, and we have to work under the parameters that exist. Focusing on preaching matrimony for childbirth is just irrelevant pontification at this point in society. And for what it's worth, my pro-choice friends and acquaintances do agree that reducing the abortion rate would be a good thing.

Unfortunately, we can thank second-wave feminism for believing that abortion frees women from "patriarchy". Any society that expects a woman to abort her child, and views this as liberating for women, is pretty horrific. For what it's worth, there are poor families (with married man and woman) who go to abortion because they don't think they can afford a child.

 

[buzuxi02]

I thought abortion was illegal in Ireland, did they change it?
Last I remember ireland's birthrate to be around 2.01 everyother place in Europe was way below that. if people dont care they are going extinct and rely on immigration to keep their industries and lifestyles going, I dont see how there can be any solution to abortion.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I'm pretty sure there is some legality to abortion in Ireland, but it's very heavily regulated.

Rates of abortion in Ireland is something like 5 abortions per 1000 women, whereas Austria has less than 2 abortions per 1000 women. Poland and Luxembourg are even lower than that.

 

[MrJim]

Interesting~~my first "exposure" to abortion was when I was in the Marine Corps...saw a big billboard in the nearby town of Jacksonville NC....not a Christian in any sense..but when I saw the billboard...the picture of the torn-up fetus..I instantly thought "the only reason anyone would be in favor of this is because of convenience and they'd need to get rid of the evidence of an illicit affair"...and I've often thought back on that particular billboard and incident...even as a "heathen" with no thoughts towards God I knew killing babies in the womb was wrong....

 

[buzuxi02]

Thats one reason I don't think we can stop it. Illicit affairs themselves are not as taboo. Just look at all the single moms but abortion is still high. Also abortion was never overturned not for even a few months when it was initially made llegal. At that time it was new, still taboo just to think of using stainless steel tools to yank out a baby" probably even more rage to call it "only an unwanted growth".
Today developed countries have below replacement level birthrates yet they are still more concerned with population control. If these circumstances doesnt make anyone question abortion nothing will.

 

[Cappadocious]

For the record, my stance is the following:
I'm against abortion
I'm against euthanasia (although I have sympathy for this cause)
I'm against capital punishment except in extreme cases

Instead of talking about all of those, this thread is about abortion in general.

Dang, cause I wanted to talk about all of those and that capital punishment exception.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think that abortion in some cases is about selfishness, but more than that, I view the existence of abortion as a symptom of a greater societal issue: our society does not respect women and femininity in general, and it doesn't respect motherhood specifically. I view the idea that abortion is done primarily because women are selfish as disrespectful towards women and femininity.

amen, sister

 

[applejack23]

I'll be happy when the pro-lifers I know want to help out the destitute homeless man as much as a zygote. I'll be happy when the pro-choice I know start valuing the family unit as stabilizing society not as hindering it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I totally agree with your first point, but I must take the second one further. I'll be happy when the pro-choice I know cease being pro-choice.

 

[LizaMarie]

I agree that our society does not respect women or femininity in general and is almost hostile towards parenthood and motherhood. I have read lots of publications from Feminists for life, good reading and I agree with what the blog you posted said. Women in second wave feminism, were expected to become like men, having sex without getting pregnant. That's not the way women are made. I also agree with you on the limited parental leave.
Most jobs and workplaces are not at all hospitable to parents and families.
I don't know what the answer is, but I agree with what you said about second wave feminism.
One thing that really cinched me for the pro-life cause after my conversion to Christianity( I used to support abortion reluctantly in the first trimester) is the silence of the pro-abortion feminists towards women who are forcibly aborted and sterilized in some countries. Pro choice or No choice?
If it's done in the name of "population control" it's OK.
Also read "Aborted Women Silent no More" by David Reardon.
Most of the women quoted in the book aborted to please someone or protect someone, not because they wanted to destroy the child.

 

[buzuxi02]

Its all so depressing to me. Sometimes I wish I didnt know so much. That I could be content with knowing pop culture and the latest fads, while being oblivious to everything else.

 

[LizaMarie]

I feel ya sometimes I wish that too. However, I do think the trend is moving in the pro-life direction I really do.
The pro-abortion crowd is graying-and I have seen several signs that millenials are much more pro-life than the booomer generation or see abortion as less of a "knee jerk" option. I think with all the knowledge of fetal development today and 3-D ultrasounds, people are seeing it's not just a clump of cells but a child quite early on . And look how strong the right to life movement is compared to the late 70's. And it has a large percentage of young people.
I agree with what you said above- abortion is a rotten fruit of the sexual revolution- unless sex gets back to it's rightful place within marriage abortion will be deemed necessary.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Abortion and humanism are diametrically opposed in my opinion. How does a humanist reconcile with literally millions upon millions of fetuses being aborted every year?

This is not humanism

x40,000,000

That's something more like systematic, mass killing (a holocaust) and an abandonment of accountability for life and parenthood. How humanizing.

*whoops, did it again. accidentally posted in an exclusive area. oh well, it's posted now, whatever