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Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

Discussion in '"My Two Cents Worth"' started by Endeavourer, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I think people like to take the side of the victim. The mee too movement is a good sign of this. Now again I am not saying victims should not be heard. But both sides need to be heard. In the mee too movement I just read a story of a woman who was sexually molested by her youth pastor and was used by the Lord to testify against him and and he was imprisoned. And rightly so. But in that case, both sides were heard and legally he was tried and put to prison. So my point is this, both side were heard. We are only hearing her side. Not his. So in order to rightly put this to test we need to hear both sides. Yes we can all agree that he should not beat her. That is given. But why was he beating her, was she holding out sex for ten years, twenty years. That can make a man angry. So my point is this.....if she wishes to avoid conflict in future marriages she needs to adress the root of the problem. However if the pastor was simply wrong, and this man was simply beating her up due to mental problem or a chemical abuse problem, then that stuff needs to be adressed too. Rarely does a man just beat someone up. There is a trigger. And if the trigger is alcohol or a mental problem so be it, she can't fix that. But if it's that she is holding out on him sexually because say she was molested herself, and she is mentally tramatized by sex itself, then that means that SHE is the one that needs counseling. if she wishes to not go through yet another divorce she needs to find the trigger. And isolate it so it does not get pulled again.
     
  2. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    There is no acceptable reason for a man to beat his wife. None.

    Suggesting that there might be is exactly the problem the OP was identifying.

    The root of the problem in domestic violence is not anything the victim does. The root of the problem is the abuser believing he is entitled to control his spouse. I would recommend the book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" (which you can find for free online) as excellent reading on the topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  3. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    this is a very narrow comment. For one, no one, not a single person in this thread, not even myself have remotely made a statement that a men "should beat their wife." Or that in an abusive situation "a woman should stay in an abusive relationship."

    normally on books written for counseling, I typically refer to only biblical writers. I have another thread on why psychology is worldly and not really God honoring. Some can be helped by psychology but most of the people in my circles realize that psychology just puts a band aid, lessens trauma but does not remove it, while through Christ alone we can have utter healing.

    also I posted some reviews of the book you posted, I think it's important to read negative reviews ok any book given.

    "Before anyone purchases this book u must realize that Mr. Bancroft has no degree, no certifications, nor does he site any resources at all in this book. 100% of this book is written from 1 man’s opinion and nothing else at all.
    Next and even worse is some of the counsel he gives. Mr. Bancroft gives absolutely zero possibility of any abuser being able to improve at all. He states that according to his experience that “ small or even medium improvements generally slip away over time...” he goes on and says that even if the abuser may even wait 2 years before testing u again. So basically, no matter what no abuser can ever change. So only if u really want no hope at all about your marriage being restored, do not read this book.
    The 2nd huge problem with this book is that Mr. Bancroft actually says that an extramarital affair can be good for u. On (pg. 87) he states “You may be sorely tempted to have a secret affair, since your partner shows you so little kindness or tenderness. A positive sexual connection may be especially affirming to you, because of how sexually degrading the Drill Sergeant tends to be. But, cheating on him can be deadly if he catches you. Consider holding off on seeing other men until you have gotten safe.”. Please listen read very closely “SEX DOES NOT HEAL HURT”. How in the world can someone say that this is what someone needs for healing? A sexual relationship only has the possibility of making things far more complicated.
    Lastly I am just begging people please reconsider reading this book. I am not advising any abused person to stay with the abuser, but at least seek out real help from a person who has been properly trained and at least holds a degree."

    "I did not find this book helpful at all. I had read Patricia Evans book on verbal abuse, and it was like reading the story of my 16 year marriage. The descriptions of the men in this book all seemed to be name-calling abusive pigs, and was repeated in every chapter. Nothing that I could use."

    "Starts off well, presenting the subject of abusive males in heterosexual relationships both broadly and in depth. The author's long experience shows through well enough to forgive the occasional judgemental slips. However, when he begins to tie it up at the end, where he claims to offer advice in dealing with such a situation, his writing devolves into a painfully ignorant, self-superior, feminist diatribe on the ills of society. I couldn't finish, but it did give me a good laugh at the cliche. If you are considering this book, my advice is to keep looking and not waste your time here."

    "in my own personal opinion, it does not apply to the typical abuser and should be read with a grain of salt. The book claims that abusers having low self-esteem is a myth, which much research and a friend of mine who is a therapist disagrees with. (from his personal experiences too) Perhaps the author is only seeing one side of his clients - the front that these people present to the world that hides their insecurities and false beliefs. The book does a good job of classifying the different types of abuse and the different stages of abuse, but appears to miss the core of the problem. The author seems rather biased siding with victims. (Victims need an advocate, but this isn't going to solve their problem.) Yes, an abuser deserves no excuses - but I believe there are core problems/perspectives of people who abuse that are not being covered in this book."
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  4. Cimorene

    Cimorene Self-banned Supporter

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    This thing happened right here over the summer that was seriously traumatic. This wolf in sheep clothing who'd sexually preyed on a girl I was friends w roped me into it all bc she had rightfully cut him off & he was trying to manipulate me to into getting her to talk to him again. What he showed me literally made me puke, it was so vile. I've never been exposed to anything that warped b4 in my life, hope never ever to be exposed to that again. It broke my heart.

    I was on a cruise in Australia then. My mom had to call the police in the States to report everything. They intervened to help the girl. It was a horrible ordeal.

    When the LAW is broken, you need to go to law enforcement. But abusers who don't want their sin exposed will try to contain it by perverting Scripture & saying you have to just talk to someone in the church about it. Nope. It's the law that you report crimes against kids. This involved the sexual abuse of a minor. We followed the law.
     
  5. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I agree if they break the law don't go to a church go to police.
     
  6. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    But you did say that "But why was he beating her, was she holding out sex for ten years, twenty years. That can make a man angry. So my point is this.....if she wishes to avoid conflict in future marriages she needs to adress the root of the problem."

    This justifies the man's abuse (because of his "anger") and blames the victim of the abuse for not "avoiding conflict" and addressing the root of the problem.

    It does not put the responsibility for abuse squarely where it belongs; with the abuser.

    As for the book, I've read it and found it both illuminatingly accurate and immensely helpful. If you don't want to read it, fine. But you haven't produced anything to counteract its basic premise that men abuse women when men feel entitled to control those women.

    That's the root of the problem.
     
  7. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    If I didn't say 'future marriages' then you would be correct. But say for example she really doesn't like having sex and that she was abused as a child and it brings back trauma for example. Well I can assure you this will create marriage problems if she remarries. And like I said if she does not want to have fights in the future, and if she is holding out, then she will have to address that. As far as the first husband and his punching her in the face or whatever, yeah that is wrong. Even if you are not getting what you want that does not mean you are allowed to punch someone. That is a violation of spiritual and civil laws and punishable by prison. If he does that, you take pictures of the bruises, go directly to a hospital so they can document it. If for example you are raped, you don't want to take a shower you need to go directly to your police so they can get DNA evidence of your attacker. But as far as this thread the pastor which is an eye witness to 'both parties' said that she should have more sex. So that is evidence one of the fact that two people, the husband and the pastor fealt she was holding out. And that is in direct violation of scripture, even if she was raped or abused years earlier, it is 'STILL IN VIOLATION' of scripture. See she can stay single if the trauma was bad enough. She doesn't have to get remarried. But if she does and she is christian, she is bound to biblical principle. Just like the husband is bound to love his wife, and 'dwell with her according to wisdom." So normally marital fights are due to miscommunication. But there can be harborring biterness and such over the period of years and a point where each other person really no longer, not only does not love one another, but bitterly hates one another. So they would need christian counseling at that point. But if you watch marriage seminars one thing is consistent a wife cannot hold back sex. In many cases if the wife simply has boring old sex regularly and simply tries to be nice to him. I will say that romance can return relatively quickly. As far as refusing the husband... I think some times a wife is like, well he wasn't nice to me today, so sorry for him, there is no sex. well she doesn't think about it this way, but the male thinks you don't love him. Sex is the males love language. And if you don't give him the sex he literally shrivles up and thinks the wife does not love him. So if a wife says, well we argued earlier so no sex today, maybe if he is nicer tomorrow we can do this. That will lead to further hurt in the male. I am not saying to be a slave and just be at his beck and call. But at the same time if he is waiting months. Then that is wrong. It should be way sooner than that, a healthy marriage has sex weekly or really healthy marriages have sex several times a week. I don't think a wife realizes the power of simply having sex with her husband, how it can change the dynamic of a marriage. Now many many marriages have what is called sexless marriages. And so they would disagree with this whole post. And for them I would seek to treat the sexlessness. Try to overcome it, go to your doctor, get in better shape, diet, do whatever. Sex is a blessing and it is a reward for the love two people have and it is a tremendous tool. I think many spouses don't even passionately kiss after being married for 10-20-30 years. So of course having a romantic night together will of course spice up the romance on both sides.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  8. WolfGate

    WolfGate Senior Member Supporter

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    createdtoworship - let me be blunt. You are wrong and playing dangerous semantical word games. While you are correct that "not even myself have remotely made a statement that a men 'should beat their wife.'" you follow that by saying "But why was he beating her, .....if she wishes to avoid conflict in future marriages she needs to address the root of the problem." You place blame on her for the sin of her abuser and while you didn't say he "should" your follow-on diatribe excused it without doubt. Your attitude is vile, repulsive and sinful.
     
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  9. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Not necessarily. Some people think "more sex" is the answer any time a marriage has a problem. She could have been having sex with him daily and some people's reflex answer would still be "more sex."

    It's not evidence of anything except that the pastor failed to deal with the issue of the abuse.
     
  10. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    So you know and have interviewed both people? You know the full situation? The book that was posted was as feminist as they come. Yes there should be a mee too movement and yes rapists are the bad ones. But this story has an third witness. A pastor. You forget the pastor mentioned that if she simply had sex this would not happen. So for a third time...the man needs prison time. And a divorce and restraining orders should be in place. However if she wishes not to go through a 3rd and 4th and 5th divorce she needs to adress the other issues.
     
  11. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Do you have evidence this was the case? Do you honestly think a pastor is going to tell a couple...."I know you have sex twice a week but you really need to do it every day to be successful?" No. That is far fetched. However if a wife has nit had sex for months or years then that may prompt a pastor to recommend maybe to have a time of romance.
     
  12. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    If the marriage relationship is a metaphor for the spiritual relationship; (which Scripturally that evidence stands)

    Ehhh What would Jesus do?

    The person who has the problem with the physical aspect of the relationship (which this can happen to men too) The partner should be helping them work through that; not mad at and abusing them because they "can't".

    Yet, a lot of Christians don't want to think about that aspect of this whole thing because:

    1. They get "weirded out" by putting "Jesus" and "sex" in the same sentence.

    2. (And what is probably more the crux of the problem.) Humans are selfish and don't want to lay down their lives for someone else!
     
  13. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    You say that like it's a bad thing...

    If I read the article correctly, it was the pastor's wife who suggested more sex.

    But even if what you said here is correct, any pastor saying that "if she simply had sex [abuse] would not happen" would be both wrong and appallingly negligent.

    It'd probably prompt me to ask more questions about what's really going on. And maybe suggest a trip to the GP.
     
  14. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    sexism is bad.


    it was a critical analysis of the pastors counseling.
    Not fighting of course wold result in less physical abuse but again she is not to reform this marriage she is to call the police and put a restraining order.

    Well of course you should ask questions. That is a given.
     
  15. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    And feminism is a movement aimed at overcoming entrenched sexism.

    I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.

    I understood you to be saying that the pastor was giving wise and appropriate advice in counselling "more sex." I countered that that was wrong and appallingly negligent.

    How does this follow from that?

    Doesn't sound like the pastors in question asked many questions, or at least, not the right ones...
     
  16. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Yes feminism is not all bad just recent developments. There should not be a pay gap and originally women could not vote so there was a lot of rights that women needed and still need. However using feminism as a way to down talk males is wrong. In being anti sexist they actually use sexism to accomplish it and thus self defeat their original goal. And that is what that book says according to reviews, that the author down talks males and uses sexist language toward them.

    originally you said that the pastor's advice to have more sex was negligent. And I am saying that I agree with the pastor. While no one should put up with abuse but call the local authorities and have a restraining order put out. More sex means less fighting. Studies have proven that more romance and sex actually lessens fights and divorce
    You don't know that. They could have gone to counseling for years and again you don't know. So this is an assumption not founded on evidence.
     
  17. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    Having read the book, I completely disagree that that is what it does.

    Yes. In a situation where one person is abusing another, advising the abused person to have more sex is negligent.

    More sex doesn't mean less fighting when sex is used as a mechanism of control (as abusers do). There's no romance when you're being abused!

    That's not at all what the article actually says.
     
  18. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Well typically I typically will read the negative reviews before buying anything. That book has a lot of good reviews. Mainly for doing the things I already mentioned, divorcing the abusive partner, putting a restraining order. All that should be common sense. However many of the reviewers felt the author was under qualified, and had no official degrees in said field of study. So that to me is alarming. If I am going to go for a medical type of book, I want them to be a professional in the field of study.



    marriages that have more sex, it is peer reviewed and proven that there is less divorce and less fights, and likewise when there is less sex or absence of sex, the hormone called oxitocin. This is called the "cuddle hormone." It is released during breast feeding, and allows a mother to bond with a child, but it is also released during sex. And it is a proven fact that the chemical calms you and makes one 'less fighty and irritable.'
    so you read this in the article, that he was using sex as a means of control, or you read it in a sexist book?


    Most likely the article doesn't say. And thus my point is valid.
     
  19. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    You don't need to buy it; it's available for free download if you google. But I don't need to defend the book, and we don't even need to debate the book.

    The fundamental point - and the reason I raised it - is that victim-blaming narratives around abuse are a problem, because abuse does not happen because of anything the victim does or does not do. Abuse happens because an abuser chooses to abuse someone else.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with abuse.

    The article says her husband abused her sexually (as well as physically, emotionally and spiritually).

    It does say, actually. It says there was an episode of intensive counselling in which the woman described her husband's abusive behaviours, and that those were not addressed; after which the abuse escalated. From the article: "The physical and emotional abuse was so bad that she was vomiting several times a day and thought she was going to die." She went on to be hospitalised for PTSD.

    That's not something a bit of romance is going to fix.
     
  20. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    it was probably pirated. I have 15000 books, some of them I got for free, and good percentage but that is because they were bundled in ministry software, for pastors and seminary students. But one thing I noticed is that if it's not the author giving the book out for free, it's probably pirated.

    .
    you don't know the victim did or did not do anything, this is pop psychology at it's worst. Say for example a young girl gets raped walking home by some gang member, they typically will say 'the victim did nothing wrong." And while that is mostly true, it's not entirely true. She walked home alone in a dark alley. That was not smart at all. She should have had her pepper spray which she left on her nightstand. So yes you can't just lay blame on one party, you have to look at the whole situation. That is how Jesus would deal with the situation


    I already said what the guy did was bad and he should be jailed. I am not sure what else about abuse you want me to say? The abuse part is relatively simplistic, and would have been addressed on the first page. However if you want to deal with marital problems and how to have a successful marriage, then that take a bit more.

    he probably raped her. The guy was a creep.


    like I said it does not say how long they went to counseling, that was my whole point.
    so then why did she stay with him? To try and fix him? Because she loved him? Why? Sounds like that was her first mistake was staying with him. If that happens you simply divorce, there is no need to convince someone about your abuse, you take photographs of your bruises, you journal it in a journal, you submit it to police and you divorce. The fact that she went to her pastors at all is sort of wierd. Sounds like a sheparding movement, which has it's own problems. our pastors would tell us to go to police, and excommunicate the husband. But I am unsure why she is going to biblical counseling for a physical abuse situation. Thats like going to a pastor after your car is stolen, that is why I mentioned the sheparding movement it's a real creepy movement where the pastor chooses what house you buy, your budget, your clothing, everything. The pastor micro manages your whole life. It's creepy.
    but the romance is something every relationship NEEDS ABSOLUTELY to function. So if she is not willing to do that, then she should be single.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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