Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

LoricaLady

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P.S. Again, I am no way saying that Paul's murderous heart was not changed. But this string is about intervention with the Church system. First, there was no Church system as we know it back then. Believers met in others' homes, or in the Synagogues on the Sabbath. (This I learned from studying first century historians. They all agree on that, secular, Protestant and Catholic.)

2nd, Paul had no Pastor, no believer, no Apostle, no One but the Lord involved in His transformation. Well, Ananias did come along later and follow direction from the Lord to help Paul see again. But Ananias was not the One Who changed Paul's heart. He didn't give Paul Scriptures or advise him on this or that. He performed a miracle at Yahushuah's, aka Jesus', directions, simply and with few words so that the scales fell from Paul's eyes. Then he baptized Paul.

But who made Paul ready for baptism? The Lord, through His appearance at Damascus. No way was Paul's metamorphosis due to Ananias or any other mortal. There was no counseling session, no building with a cross on top, no Pastor sitting in an office. MESSIAH alone transformed Paul. Of course He is the only One Who transforms anyone. If He wants to use someone sitting in a Church office, He can do that. But that wasn't how Paul's murderous heart was changed to one of great love for others.
 
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Endeavourer

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You don't fix a broken bridge by insisting on walking over it. Yes, the church needs to build a healthier culture on these matters. In the meantime, until/unless it does, encouraging traumatised people to put themselves in an unsafe position doesn't actually do anything to fix the problem.

And by the way, this thread has highlighted that pastors are not trained to work with people who have been abused; we have even less training to work with people who are abusers. I really have no skill or knowledge about how to minister well with perpetrators. I would be referring them on to a specialist (outside the church) as fast as I possibly could.

Paidiske, I've been thinking about your comment, and would like to suggest this is only part of the church body's problem. The best case scenario here is what you do, which is have the training to recognize a problem that is outside of your expertise and hand it off to someone with the expertise.

Your comment addresses the next problem, which is pastors who try to work with abusers even though they are not trained to do so. These pastors might still be well intended or even have sound theology although their counseling fails due to lack of training. Hopefully in that case the victim still receives affirmation so that the support, even if ineffective, is not as damaging as the next case scenario.

The worst case scenario goes beyond your comment where horrific theology is applied with brute force and ol' boy's club collusion. These scenarios fall along this story line in varying degrees:
The woman is told that due to the Bible's ordained headship order, she is to submit better to the abuse from her husband (who is her head and authority) and stop gossiping to the pastor about her husband. When the abuse escalates (as it always does when the abuser is empowered), she is then disciplined by the church publicly for failing to honor and obey her authority.
The video by John Piper in post #21 on this thread is a degree of this third scenario. He is more worried about the wife's submissive and humble heart than he is worried about the the husband abusing her.

Four years after making the video, after tiring of the uproar from abuse advocates of telling the physically battered spouses to endure "being smacked for a night" and then going to the church instead of calling 911 on the spot, he clarified to say she might be able to call the police under these ludicrous conditions:

This legitimate recourse to civil protection may be done in a spirit that does not contradict the spirit of love and submission to her husband, for a wife may take this recourse with a heavy and humble heart that longs for her husband’s repentance and the restoration of his nurturing leadership.
Piper is still more worried about whether she is planning to have a submissive spirit and get back under the lout's 'leadership' than he is about her safety, or about her husband stopping his abuse of her. He pretends to not know that abusers often don't change.

Piper has made his gender theology an idol that creates a prism distorting his ability to comprehend the full counsel of God's holy word. He also makes a lot of money on it, lol, having established the Counsel of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood to create for himself an eminent (apparent) qualification to write and sell books on the topic. Sadly many people love his teaching and buy his books, not realizing this rotten root creates a filter through which other theological formations are also distorted.
 
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Yahkov

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I can see the church has failed thousands of women in these cases. I still encourage you go to your church first. Or at the very least, if you think your church will have the same response as these women have experienced, seek help among a ministry designed to help with abuse. If they don't help you or display patterns like what was shared in these stories, go to court. I just ask we at least start with what God has instructed. There is nothing in Scripture that prevents us from seeking help among government if the church fails to help in these situations. This way we can at the very least be without any guilt in that regard.

I also appreciate this thread a ton despite my disagreements because it raises awareness and that is what should happen all throughout churches in America. This is a serious problem that the church does nothing or acts in this way. What a shame. If it is men the church want to favor to listen to, I am one less man who refuses to fall into that way of thinking. I am also one less man who will stand idle to abuse. I haven't before and I will not today or tomorrow. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
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Endeavourer

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Or at the very least, if you think your church will have the same response as these women have experienced, seek help among a ministry designed to help with abuse.

I appreciate your comment Yahkov. I would recommend that if you do send a woman to her pastor, go beside her and make sure she isn't abused even worse by her system.

As for me, I have found a marriage ministry that is safe, so I send the ones that are beyond my help there. That ministry is part of the ekklesia, also, just as much as any one in a local church body is.

Like @Paidiske said, pastors don't have that kind of training - that's not what they went to school for, so it's still of little use to engage a pastor specifically to resolve the abuse. Paidiske would absolutely be a wonderful resource to come beside the abused with spiritual comfort and ministering, but she is really an exception. We need more pastors like her!!! And like @topher694

Without knowing ahead of time that the woman's particular pastor is like these two, I just wouldn't dare to blindly recommend an abused woman go to a pastor I know nothing about. Too many of them cause more damage with wretched gender theology and horrible advice.

To clarify, not all complimentarians have wretched gender theology. My husband is a complimentarian and he's the best husband in all the world. ....lol..... and we have a great marriage. I'm not a complimentarian anymore, and I feel we have a mutual marriage. He feels we have a complimentarian marriage. We just both bring the fruits of the Spirit to our union and not the fruits of darkness. Somehow, that all turns out to have a result everyone is happy with regardless of their theology. However, many complimentarians have twisted the complimentarian theology into devilish fruits of darkness.
 
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Yahkov

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Your comment addresses the next problem, which is pastors who try to work with abusers even though they are not trained to do so. These pastors might still be well intended or even have sound theology although their counseling fails due to lack of training. Hopefully in that case the victim still receives affirmation so that the support, even if ineffective, is not as damaging as the next case scenario.

I would like to expand on this is all. This is also a reason I moved away from "go to your pastor" and shifted to "go to your church". Church as we know it isn't the building we go to on Sunday with the cross and a flashy sign off of the side of the road. A ministry that reaches out to women who are abused is also church. Church can come in many forms.

Pastors, most I'd hope, have the gift of teaching. As you have pointed out, they don't all have the training, I'd also add perhaps the gift, to handle these situations. There are many parts to the body.

I believe there are so many problems with the typical church we all seem to experience these days. There is so much that needs correcting, not just the issue of abuse and cover ups. I believe one way that would be a great step forward would be a ministry team through all churches that help with this particular situation. It's far too common to do nothing. We must have accountability. Not dominance and favoritism.
 
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Yahkov

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I appreciate your comment Yahkov. I would recommend that if you do send a woman to her pastor, go beside her and make sure she isn't abused even worse by her system.

I'd love to do this. If anyone experiencing abuse lives in Houston, TX, I wouldn't hesitate to go with you, alongside my wife as well. I have met with pastors myself a number of times and they most certainly are not perfect. They are to be held to a very strong standard, arguably the highest.
 
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~Zao~

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I....recommend that if you do send a woman to her pastor, go beside her and make sure she isn't abused even worse by her system......Without knowing ahead of time that the woman's particular pastor is like these two, I just wouldn't dare to blindly recommend an abused woman go to a pastor I know nothing about. Too many of them cause more damage with wretched gender theology and horrible advice.
What your saying is that women sitting under this teaching are too ill-informed to know the difference. (Gullible, easily swayed and all the other accusations) This is no way a sign of the times, it’s a sign of old wine with a huge fly in the ointment that is so prevalent that it’s still considered the norm. Instead of the rise above the common place that it’s meant to be.
 
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Endeavourer

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What your saying is that women sitting under this teaching are too ill-informed to know the difference. (Gullible, easily swayed and all the other accusations) This is no way a sign of the times, it’s a sign of old wine with a huge fly in the ointment that is so prevalent that it’s still considered the norm. Instead of the rise above the common place that it’s meant to be.

No, often they are too broken down and gaslit to be able to recognize and stand up for their righteousness.

However some have been taught bad theology for their whole lives and have not yet begun to question whether what seems to be so plain is as actually saying what their group claims it is saying. You have been witness to some very ugly posts by people who are insist their view is the only one and the Bible is so plain in support of such.
 
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~Zao~

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The thing is is that slavery is abolished. How does one become a slave but to be born into it, or a captive from another nation. We already know Adam and Eve drew cards that one had to sweat to get his bread and she had him dominating her to help him. But what did Jesus purchase? The right to be Thee guide for the one of Him, male and female. He is OUR high Priest. G’night peers
 
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Sam91

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What your saying is that women sitting under this teaching are too ill-informed to know the difference. (Gullible, easily swayed and all the other accusations) This is no way a sign of the times, it’s a sign of old wine with a huge fly in the ointment that is so prevalent that it’s still considered the norm. Instead of the rise above the common place that it’s meant to be.
Not so much gullible but already suffering from the consequences of abuse. This means that they'll be vulnerable emotionally and may have difficulty opening up and communicating the abuse effectively. Having someone on hand to make them feel supported would be a good thing. Especially when talking to a Pastor who already knows both of them. A woman may fear not being believed due to her husband's powers of communication and closer relationship to the Pastor than that she has, due to the fact that the men talk more to each other.

It is likely that she will have lower self esteem and a misplaced sense of guilt. She may feel conflicted due to loyalty to her abusive spouse and wonder too if the same scriptural passages used by him to subjugate would also be used by her pastor.

If the Pastor seems to not be understanding, or makes excuses for her partner or minimises the abuse she is suffering, it would take a remarkable woman to be able to smother the emotions (despair and anxiety primarily, anger would likely happen after the conversation has ended) aroused by such conduct enough to be able to converse at the level needed to challenge this.
 
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~Zao~

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Not so much gullible but already suffering from the consequences of abuse. This means that they'll be vulnerable emotionally and may have difficulty opening up and communicating the abuse effectively. Having someone on hand to make them feel supported would be a good thing. Especially when talking to a Pastor who already knows both of them. A woman may fear not being believed due to her husband's powers of communication and closer relationship to the Pastor than that she has, due to the fact that the men talk more to each other.

It is likely that she will have lower self esteem and a misplaced sense of guilt. She may feel conflicted due to loyalty to her abusive spouse and wonder too if the same scriptural passages used by him to subjugate would also be used by her pastor.

If the Pastor seems to not be understanding, or makes excuses for her partner or minimises the abuse she is suffering, it would take a remarkable woman to be able to smother the emotions (despair and anxiety primarily, anger would likely happen after the conversation has ended) aroused by such conduct enough to be able to converse at the level needed to challenge this.
Why wouldn’t another woman go with her? People go to the opposite sex for understanding (which is what is not being offered by the offending churches) but for help they should go to the same sex because understanding is already a given.
 
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Endeavourer

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If they don't help you or display patterns like what was shared in these stories, go to court.

Just so I understand you, the emotional and spiritual abuse is not actionable within the penal system so you are suggesting go to court for civil redress, which would be either divorce, or perhaps more imaginatively (if your personal conviction is no-divorce) suing him for the intentional infliction of emotional distress instead of a divorce.

While my theology used to be very restrictive against divorce, my understanding has evolved after working with abused women and realizing that the Lord did not die on the cross to save us and grant us the beautiful liberty in Him promised in Galatians, Romans, etc just to subjugate half of his bride to slavery under the twisted fruits of darkness that inevitably arises out of hearts of sinners. This, and other promptings from the Lord, instigated a long path of study for me that I feel reconciles a more full counsel of Scripture about marital failings and endings.

I also appreciate this thread a ton despite my disagreements because it raises awareness and that is what should happen all throughout churches in America. This is a serious problem that the church does nothing or acts in this way. What a shame. If it is men the church want to favor to listen to, I am one less man who refuses to fall into that way of thinking. I am also one less man who will stand idle to abuse. I haven't before and I will not today or tomorrow. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Thank you very much for your appreciation, and for your strong passion to stand for the abused. This also became my passion, and particularly for those entrapped in abuse under dark and wretched doctrines.
 
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~Zao~

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When a pastor offended the women at a church awhile back the women all separated themselves to one side of the church meeting the following day. The pastor told them all to join their husbands and as one they got up and sat in amongst the others. Not a word spoken but the message was clear. But it was once and it was all. Only time I have ever seen that happen.

PS it was also not planned!
 
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Yahkov

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Just so I understand you, the emotional and spiritual abuse is not actionable within the penal system so you are suggesting go to court for civil redress, which would be either divorce, or perhaps more imaginatively (if your personal conviction is no-divorce) suing him for the intentional infliction of emotional distress instead of a divorce.

While my theology used to be very restrictive against divorce, my understanding has evolved after working with abused women and realizing that the Lord did not die on the cross to save us and grant us the beautiful liberty in Him promised in Galatians, Romans, etc just to subjugate half of his bride to slavery under the twisted fruits of darkness that inevitably arises out of hearts of sinners. This, and other promptings from the Lord, instigated a long path of study for me that I feel reconciles a more full counsel of Scripture about marital failings and endings.



Thank you very much for your appreciation, and for your strong passion to stand for the abused. This also became my passion, and particularly for those entrapped in abuse under dark and wretched doctrines.

Ok I need more consistency if I'll take further in this discussion. Is the guy abusing his wife emotionally or is he beating the heck out of her and her kids? You have to pick one. I was given so many hypotheticals I can't keep up with at this point. I don't recall who it was but someone gave me a hypothetical of a man raping his children and brutally beating his wife almost to the point of murder. Using such a case to argue a point on this is on par with saying "abortion should be legal because of rape." It's arguing through the lens of an unlikely and rare situation to push an idea.

So if it is emotional or spiritual, no I don't recommend court, no way. That is something that is no where near the severity of a man beating the heck out of his wife everyday. It is abuse nonetheless, I am not denying that.

I'd argue most forms of abuse is not justifiable for divorce; emotional or physical, Sexual you may have an argument. Abandonment from an unbeliever you may have an argument. But this isn't a thread about divorce. My stance on that is also firmly planted in Scripture as well. The issue with changing what your stance used to be is firstly, it's not rooted in Scripture but rather it's rooted in experience with people. Secondly, you'd have to assume that abuse was not common during that time (which I extremely doubt) and didn't need any correcting.

This is yet another side I can debate with you but I am certain it will have the same conclusion. I will present to you Scripture and you'll just tell me you used to think this way. Experience with people will constantly be different and change. God doesn't change. I believe God was well aware of domestic abuse and saddened by it infinitely more than you are, even when He inspired what was penned in His word.

"the Lord did not die on the cross to save us and grant us the beautiful liberty in Him promised in Galatians, Romans, etc just to subjugate half of his bride to slavery under the twisted fruits of darkness that inevitably arises out of hearts of sinners." --- but isn't this exactly the reality? How many of the early disciples were stoned or crucified? In fact the one who wrote Galatians and Romans that speaks of those promised liberties was himself imprisoned and killed. Jesus never once promised a "heaven on earth" that we will experience in this world. Literally he warned the direct opposite. You can take this way of thinking in this quote from you and apply it to all of Scripture. Then if what you say here is correct, I'd be stuck reading the New Testament constantly asking myself, "Jesus, where are you?"
 
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Endeavourer

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So if it is emotional or spiritual, no I don't recommend court, no way. That is something that is no where near the severity of a man beating the heck out of his wife everyday. It is abuse nonetheless, I am not denying that.

Actually, this is incorrect. Emotional abuse can be more physically damaging than beating a wife.

I suffered under emotional abuse in a marriage for 25 years until my body could no longer take it and my heart suffered physical damage in the form of a stress induced arrhythmia. I wish it could have been a few blows and bruises that completely went away. Instead it's likely my natural lifespan has been reduced and my activities have been limited quite a bit to manage the arrhythmia. One of my virtual friends on another forum who is about my age (50) just died from her arrhythmia.

So, emotional abuse is physical abuse. It damages women in physiological ways. Abuse is abuse. Jesus says that hating your brother is murder. There's a reason for that. Emotional abuse is murder (physical abuse).
 
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~Zao~

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Actually, this is incorrect. Emotional abuse can be more physically damaging than beating a wife.

I suffered under emotional abuse in a marriage for 25 years until my body could no longer take it and my heart suffered physical damage in the form of a stress induced arrhythmia. I wish it could have been a few blows and bruises that completely went away. Instead it's likely my natural lifespan has been reduced and my activities have been limited quite a bit to manage the arrhythmia. One of my virtual friends on another forum who is about my age (50) just died from her arrhythmia.

So, emotional abuse is physical abuse. It damages women in physiological ways. Abuse is abuse. Jesus says that hating your brother is murder. There's a reason for that. Emotional abuse is murder (physical abuse).
It comes down to Molech so includes many heartfelt feelings associated with it. That’s a much deeper topic.

But I’ll check into this thread later. It’s not a topic I enjoy engaging in.
 
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Yahkov

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Actually, this is incorrect. Emotional abuse can be more physically damaging than beating a wife.

I suffered under emotional abuse in a marriage for 25 years until my body could no longer take it and my heart suffered physical damage in the form of a stress induced arrhythmia. I wish it could have been a few blows and bruises that completely went away. Instead it's likely my natural lifespan has been reduced and my activities have been limited quite a bit to manage the arrhythmia. One of my virtual friends on another forum who is about my age (50) just died from her arrhythmia.

So, emotional abuse is physical abuse. It damages women in physiological ways. Abuse is abuse. Jesus says that hating your brother is murder. There's a reason for that. Emotional abuse is murder (physical abuse).

I am sorry you went through what you did. I stand on the opposite side. I was severely abused by my parents growing up and I wish instead of blood and bruises it would've been more emotional. My mother was the one who was emotionally abusive. Not sure if this really counts but my most vivid memory is myself and my older brother trying to stop my mom from killing herself. She had her hand over ours and had two knives she put into our hands, telling us we were killing her, and we were each pulling with all our might to stop it from happening. I guess that's the worst I have experienced with emotional abuse.

I don't share this for sympathy, I share this to show you I get it. I am not speaking out of ignorance here.

I say this to no disrespect, but I am not buying that your heart condition is because of emotional abuse. How do you even prove that? There are so many other factors that could have been a cause.

I get that abuse is abuse. But I don't think I can sit there and look at two women, one has her face completely swollen, and another just has makeup smeared from crying, and tell the one who was emotionally abused that she has it worse and is prone to more physical damage with her abuse.
 
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Cimorene

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I'm not saying it's wrong to notify police or that this guy was right.. but anytime you go to the police and report a crime like rape or incest, in order to prosecute the perpetrator the victim has to take the stand and face the accused..

This is the most difficult aspect of rape prosecution.. taking the stand and facing the perpetrator of the crime.

It's best that happens with police and lawyers around though.. for safeties sake.

The police can still help victims of incest even if that victim does not want to see the perpetrator prosecuted bc that would only inflict more pain & suffering.

Victims should never ever ever ever ever feel like they must not seek proper help for fear they'll be forced onto the stand.

What percentage of incest are ever forced to take to the witness stand against their abusers?? I think it's very small.
 
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Yahkov

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I think it is time I withdrawal from this conversation. I feel as if now I may be crossing the line, trying to go too far to deliver my point. I think my stance has been made clearly and I have delivered my Biblical evidence. Thank you for the discussion and God bless everyone!
 
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