Why I am a Calvinist, defense of TULIP

[PrettyboyAndy]

T) Total depravity/Sinful Nature
I did not chose God, I have nothing to offer him, I wasn't even seeking him, nor could I, I was a slave to sin (John 8:34 Romans 6:20) Dead in my transgressions (Ephesians 2:1 Collossians 2:13) Prior to my salvation, I was living only for myself!

The bible explains this is effects from the garden, and the results of sin entering the world, and how we all became sinners, born sinners. (Genesis 6:5 Jeremiah 17:9 Romans 3:10)

U) Unconditional Election,
Because we are totally depraved and unable to come to God, that is why salvation must be and is From the Lord, Jonah 2:9,

Ephesians 1:4-6, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, Deuteronomy 7:6-7 - Why did God chose Israel, out of the whole world?!

L) Limited Atonement -

Christ only died for the sins of his sheep, he died for all the sins of some people.

Christ could not have died for everyone, he died for all the sins of some people, not all the sins of all people, that clearly isnt the case! If he died for all the sins for all the people, then Hitler, rapists, murderers, etc, would enter the kingdom of heaven, that just isn't the case!

I) Irresistible grace -

God opens the heart, and changes the heart of stone to flesh

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 -

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekial 36:26


P) Perseverance of the Saints,
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. John 10:27-29


All men are born sinners, direct result of the fall in the garden, and sin entered the world, we are born blind and deaf to God, God has to open our hearts and initiate salvation, so that we can believe, and even the faith we have is also a gift, everything is from Him. The one he saves, will remain in the faith, because he is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

L) Limited Atonement -

Christ only died for the sins of his sheep, he died for all the sins of some people.

Christ could not have died for everyone, he died for all the sins of some people, not all the sins of all people, that clearly isnt the case! If he died for all the sins for all the people, then Hitler, rapists, murderers, etc, would enter the kingdom of heaven, that just isn't the case!

Nice to read your OPINION, but it's just that, an opinion.

Now where is your scripture?

 

[98cwitr]

Nice to read your OPINION, but it's just that, an opinion.

Now where is your scripture?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Greek:

κόσμος,n \{kos'-mos}
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government 2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3 3) the world, the universe 4) the circle of the earth, the earth 5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family 6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ 7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly 7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ 8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort 8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) 8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Same word used in John 3:16. Now, if we look at John 3 in context, we find:

John 3:17-20 New International Version (NIV)

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

I think verse 18 could be understood to support limited atonement theory, as those who do not because already stand condemned, and thus Christ's blood does not cover them, and therefore Christ's blood does not apply to them.

If we take an Armenian understanding and position of John 3:17, we know that if even one person winds up in Hell, God's plan for Christ fails. If God intended for Christ to save the literal "whole world" and this does not take place, what does that mean about God's intentions and character?

 

[thecolorsblend]

I) Irresistible grace -

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 -

Your interpretation of this passage presupposes that not all are drawn to Our Lord. I say this as someone who doesn't really have a major preference on I either way. My point is that this is a rather unusual passage to select as a prooftext for I.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekial 36:26

Contextually that passage relates to the restoration of Israel. It is addressed a uniquely jewish audience. There's no reason interpret some mode of universal applicability based strictly on this passage.

As a Catholic, I must ask what grace we're to understand as being irresistible here. There is grace efficacious unto salvation (ie, grace that ultimately leads you to Heaven) and we can even postulate that such grace only goes to some people. However, there is sufficient grace offered to all people that they can choose communion with God... but this isn't necessarily a guarantee that they will remain in communion in perpetuity. So to say that God's grace is irresistible makes a lovely sentiment, it also lacks specificity. I assume it wasn't for nothing that St. Stephen accused the Sanhedrin of resisting the Holy Spirit in Acts 7 so on some level we know such a thing must be possible. So again I ask what grace specifically is being referred to with I.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, Andy. Good to meet you on here.

 

[RC1970]

Nice to read your OPINION, but it's just that, an opinion.

Now where is your scripture?

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." ~ John 10:14-15

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Greek:

κόσμος,n \{kos'-mos}
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government 2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3 3) the world, the universe 4) the circle of the earth, the earth 5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family 6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ 7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly 7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ 8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort 8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) 8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

That is not even the correct Greek word.

The correct Greek word is

2889 [e]
kosmou
κόσμου .
world

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.


Which proves my point. Christ died for all of the world.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." ~ John 10:14-15

Does that take out of the Bible the verses that Jesus died for the sins of the world, all mankind?

Whenever the word sheep is used, it is always talking about those who are saved. So of course this means the sheep, but this does not disinclude others in any way.

Romans 5:8–10
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

[RC1970]

Does that take out of the Bible the verses that Jesus died for the sins of the world, all mankind?

Whenever the word sheep is used, it is always talking about those who are saved. So of course this means the sheep, but this does not disinclude others in any way.

Romans 5:8–10
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Read all of Romans 5. Does the "we" and "us" refer to everyone or just believers?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Read all of Romans 5. Does the "we" and "us" refer to everyone or just believers?

Believers, but Paul is talking to them about before they were believers, that is clear. When he uses the phrase "while we were enemies" that had to have been before salvation because Paul does not call any saved person an enemy of God. Also note the wording that Paul uses saying "we have now been" that is speaking of salvation and them now being saved, so it is contrasting between before they were saved and the present time

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Read all of Romans 5. Does the "we" and "us" refer to everyone or just believers?

Context is important.

 

[RC1970]

Believers, but Paul is talking to them about before they were believers, that is clear. When he uses the phrase "while we were enemies" that had to have been before salvation because Paul does not call any saved person an enemy of God. Also note the wording that Paul uses saying "we have now been" that is speaking of salvation and them now being saved, so it is contrasting between before they were saved and the present time

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Yes, the "we" and the "us" refer to believers.

"while we (believers) were still sinners, Christ died for us (believers)."

So then, does this say that he died for believers or for everyone?

 

[98cwitr]

That is not even the correct Greek word.

The correct Greek word is

2889 [e]
kosmou
κόσμου .
world

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.


Which proves my point. Christ died for all of the world.

As your link shows the transliteration being kosmos, mine did too. Look at the whole definition in context please.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Believers, but Paul is talking to them about before they were believers, that is clear. When he uses the phrase "while we were enemies" that had to have been before salvation because Paul does not call any saved person an enemy of God. Also note the wording that Paul uses saying "we have now been" that is speaking of salvation and them now being saved, so it is contrasting between before they were saved and the present time

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Take a look at this "all" verse:

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But look who this letter was for, who is the audience?

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 2 Peter 1:1-2

This was only to the believer, not the non believer

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Context is important.

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Luke 2:1-2

Does this mean every person in the world went to take a census? Was this why all the inn's in Bethlehem were taken?

 

[98cwitr]

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Luke 2:1-2

Does this mean every person in the world went to take a census? Was this why all the inn's in Bethlehem were taken?

Makes me realize that ancient man looked at the sea like we today look into deep space.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, the "we" and the "us" refer to believers.

"while we (believers) were still sinners, Christ died for us (believers)."

So then, does this say that he died for believers or for everyone?

This is one verse and Paul is talking specifically to believers. That does not prove your point. You still have Christ's own words to call false and say He did not die for the WORLD.

 

[RC1970]

This is one verse and Paul is talking specifically to believers. That does not prove your point. You still have Christ's own words to call false and say He did not die for the WORLD.

Scripture?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Luke 2:1-2

Does this mean every person in the world went to take a census? Was this why all the inn's in Bethlehem were taken?

Take a look at the Greek, it is not the same word used when Christ said He came for all the world.

οἰκουμένην (oikoumenēn) — 8 Occurrences

Luke 2:1 N-AFS
GRK: πᾶσαν τὴν οἰκουμένην
NAS: of all the inhabited earth.
KJV: that all the world should be taxed.
INT: all the world

Acts 11:28 N-AFS
GRK: ὅλην τὴν οἰκουμένην ἥτις ἐγένετο
NAS: over the world. And this
KJV: all the world: which
INT: all the world which came to pass

Acts 17:6 N-AFS
GRK: Οἱ τὴν οἰκουμένην ἀναστατώσαντες οὗτοι
NAS: who have upset the world have come
KJV: that have turned the world upside down
INT: Those who the habitable world have set in confusion these

Acts 17:31 N-AFS
GRK: κρίνειν τὴν οἰκουμένην ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ
NAS: judge the world in righteousness
KJV: judge the world in
INT: to judge the world in righteousness

Acts 24:5 N-AFS
GRK: κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην πρωτοστάτην τε
NAS: throughout the world, and a ringleader
KJV: throughout the world, and
INT: in the world a leader moreover

Hebrews 1:6 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην λέγει Καὶ
NAS: the firstborn into the world, He says,
KJV: into the world, he saith,
INT: into the world he says And

Hebrews 2:5 N-AFS
GRK: ὑπέταξεν τὴν οἰκουμένην τὴν μέλλουσαν
NAS: to angels the world to come,
KJV: put in subjection the world to come,
INT: did he subject the world which is to come

Revelation 12:9 N-AFS
GRK: πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην ἐβλήθη
NAS: the whole world; he was thrown
KJV: the whole world: he was cast out
INT: misleads the habitable [world] whole he was cast


I've included it for your reference.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture?

15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 1 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.