Why Im Not a Christian Zionist, Academically Speaking
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“Why I’m Not a Christian Zionist, Academically Speaking”
by Gary M. Burge, Ph.D., Professor of New Testament Wheaton College & Graduate School
by Gary M. Burge, Ph.D., Professor of New Testament Wheaton College & Graduate School
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From the link
[FONT="]❀ [/FONT]Reformed theologians (like myself) believe that something decisive happened in Christ. His covenant affected not simply the covenant of Moses making a new and timeless form of salvation but it also affected every Jewish covenant, including Abrahams covenant. Christ fulfills the expectations of Jewish covenant life and renews the people of God rooted in the OT and Judaism. Thus Jesus is a new temple, the new Israel , there are 12 tribes/apostles, etc.
Where would such a silly notion come from??
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From the link
[FONT="]❀ [/FONT]Reformed theologians (like myself) believe that something decisive happened in Christ. His covenant affected not simply the covenant of Moses making a new and timeless form of salvation but it also affected every Jewish covenant, including Abrahams covenant. Christ fulfills the expectations of Jewish covenant life and renews the people of God rooted in the OT and Judaism. Thus Jesus is a new temple, the new Israel , there are 12 tribes/apostles, etc.
Where would such a silly notion come from??
And what specifically is silly? You could ask Dr. Burge where this notion came from. gary.burge@wheaton.edu
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Because this contradicts ...........
[FONT="]❀ [/FONT]Reformed theologians (like myself) believe that something decisive happened in Christ. His covenant affected not simply the covenant of Moses making a new and timeless form of salvation but it also affected every Jewish covenant, including Abrahams covenant. Christ fulfills the expectations of Jewish covenant life and renews the people of God rooted in the OT and Judaism. Thus Jesus is a new temple, the new Israel , there are 12 tribes/apostles, etc.
This.......
Matthew 5 : 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Hamas wants Israel to give in and let them take over.
"If the bloodshed in Gaza and the West Bank does not stop, there will be similar bloodshed in ... Tel Aviv," Hamas spokesman Hamad al-Rukeb said in a statement.
( LIKE THERE WAS NO BLOODSHED BEFORE ??? LOL )
Since Hamas took over Gaza, Israel has cut off all ties with the territory, only allowing in food, fuel and humanitarian supplies. On several occasions in recent months, Israel has reduced fuel and electricity supplies with the hope that Gaza's population would pressure the militants to stop the rocket fire.
Since the siege was imposed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have had to live with erratic supplies of food and no imports of products like spare car parts and computer paper.
"This can only lead to the deterioration of an already dire situation," Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees, said of the latest Israeli decision.
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Israeli decision would not bring a cessation of the rocket fire.
"Violence and military solutions and collective punishment will breed violence and more hatred ... and it will not provide no peace and security," Erekat said.
( EVEN THE SUPPOSED NON EXTREME PALESTINIANS BLAME ISRAEL INSTEAD OF HAMAS )
Nabil Abu Rdeineh, Abbas' spokesman, said Palestinian negotiators have urged the United States to stop Israel from "sabotaging" the talks.
( THE UN IS NOT BLAMING ISRAEL HERE INSTEAD OF HAMAS ARE THEY
)
A U.N. agency warned that the Israeli closure of the Gaza passages would increase hardship in the impoverished territory of 1.4 million Palestinians. Hamas threatened suicide attacks on Israel if its sanctions and military raids continued.
"If the bloodshed in Gaza and the West Bank does not stop, there will be similar bloodshed in ... Tel Aviv," Hamas spokesman Hamad al-Rukeb said in a statement.
( LIKE THERE WAS NO BLOODSHED BEFORE ??? LOL )
Since Hamas took over Gaza, Israel has cut off all ties with the territory, only allowing in food, fuel and humanitarian supplies. On several occasions in recent months, Israel has reduced fuel and electricity supplies with the hope that Gaza's population would pressure the militants to stop the rocket fire.
Since the siege was imposed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have had to live with erratic supplies of food and no imports of products like spare car parts and computer paper.
"This can only lead to the deterioration of an already dire situation," Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees, said of the latest Israeli decision.
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Israeli decision would not bring a cessation of the rocket fire.
"Violence and military solutions and collective punishment will breed violence and more hatred ... and it will not provide no peace and security," Erekat said.
( EVEN THE SUPPOSED NON EXTREME PALESTINIANS BLAME ISRAEL INSTEAD OF HAMAS
)Nabil Abu Rdeineh, Abbas' spokesman, said Palestinian negotiators have urged the United States to stop Israel from "sabotaging" the talks.
( THE UN IS NOT BLAMING ISRAEL HERE INSTEAD OF HAMAS ARE THEY
)A U.N. agency warned that the Israeli closure of the Gaza passages would increase hardship in the impoverished territory of 1.4 million Palestinians. Hamas threatened suicide attacks on Israel if its sanctions and military raids continued.
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and the secular state counters Gods commands.
Je 9:13-16
13The Lord said, "It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law.
14Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their ancestors taught them."
15Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "See, I will make this people eat bitter food and drink poisoned water.
16I will scatter them among nations that neither they nor their ancestors have known, and I will pursue them with the sword until I have made an end of them."
Now, does anyone believe, even among the most zealous Christian advocates, that the modern secular state of Israel in which a high percentage of Jewish people do not even believe in God, and a high percentage of Israeli Jews would label themselves as atheists, does anyone believe that this state is living in obedience and submission to God's law?
The Old Testament never ever separated obedience to God's law and the gracious gift of being able to live in the Promised Land. The land was forfeited, in other words, when people turned their backs on God. (Continued)
What is the inheritance promised to us today?
Is it a piece of ground in the Middle East? Is it the West Bank? The Gaza Strip? The Sinai Peninsula? Listen to the apostle Paul's answer in Romans 4.13,
Ro 4:13
13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
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billwald
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There is nothing in Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Reformed theology which requires the continued existence or practicing Jews.
Second, Nation of Israel is not a Jewish theocracy. For example, it has been in existence for 60 years and neither the required 7th year not the 50th year been celebrated.
Second, Nation of Israel is not a Jewish theocracy. For example, it has been in existence for 60 years and neither the required 7th year not the 50th year been celebrated.
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dead horse.
OK
No sir, not dead, espesically when there is injustice done in the name of Christ. Carey thought you might be interested in this document from your avitar.
In 1948, prior to the creation of the State of Israel, Albert Einstein was solicited by the Stern Gang to raise money and support for its terrorism against the British and the Palestinians.
In the United States, the Stern Gang operated under the title of American Friends of the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel. Here is Einsteins response written the day after the massacre at Deir Yassin, the same day it was first reported in The New York Times. The original letter is slated to become part of the Deir Yassin Remembered Archives.
Below is a "copy" in its entirety of a very important letter to the New York Times from Jewish intellectuals including Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, and Sidney Hook that appeared on December 4, 1948. Of particular interest is the reference to the Deir Yassin massacre which occured earlier that year. While it is quoted from in brief on several web sites, it appears nowhere in its entirety, and it deserves to be disseminated as it originally appears. Follow link provided. http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/NYTimes1948.html
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Back to the topic; the one thing that made me question CZ is that the secular state of Israel has been placed above God's command to love our neighbor as our self.
A Christian theology that does not treat all life as equal is false.
A Christian theology that does not treat all life as equal is false.
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How is accepting Israel having their rightful rule over there land given toi them by God puting them above love thy Neighboor??
That is ridiculous.
That is like saying support Kuwait against Saddam was puting Kuwait above loving their nieghboor Saddam when he invaded.
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Carey your first mistake is assuming that modern day Israel is Biblical Israel, Second there is nothing in the Holy Bible that gives the secular state the right to harm or steal from the people who were and are living there currently and whom can trace their historical roots back centuries. I could care less about your arguement that the Palestinians never exsisted in Palestine, get real, history can not be erased thought there are those who do try. There is injustice being done in the name of zionism/Christian zionism and it is wrong and wicked and not of our Holy Father. CZ reduces the Gospel of Christ to nothingness. Collective punishment is against international and is pure evil.
Leading article: An unlawful policy of collective punishment
The siege of Gaza has reached a vicious new intensity. Last Thursday, Israel blocked the delivery of fuel oil supplies to the Strip. The result is that Gaza's only power station has not functioned since the weekend. Hundred of thousands of homes in the territory have been left without power. Hospitals have been forced to rely on diesel generators. Bakeries and petrol stations have closed. International aid organisations working in the Strip have warned of a threat to sewage and water supplies if the blockade continues.
http://comment. independent. co.uk/leading_ articles/ article3359045. ece
Leading article: An unlawful policy of collective punishment
The siege of Gaza has reached a vicious new intensity. Last Thursday, Israel blocked the delivery of fuel oil supplies to the Strip. The result is that Gaza's only power station has not functioned since the weekend. Hundred of thousands of homes in the territory have been left without power. Hospitals have been forced to rely on diesel generators. Bakeries and petrol stations have closed. International aid organisations working in the Strip have warned of a threat to sewage and water supplies if the blockade continues.
http://comment. independent. co.uk/leading_ articles/ article3359045. ece
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You are right people have been trying to erase the fact that Israelis where romved from their land and rightfully have it back now.
People try to erase the injustice constant attacks on Israel by Palestinian Hamas and Hizbullah and want to focus on the rightful rulers trying to combat that extreme terrorism with what ever means they can.
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There you go again acting like Christ never came. Even Abraham knew it was NEVER about 'the land' as he had his sites/faith set on God's heavenly promise. Abraham trusted God and was content. When the land becomes a primary focus the land has become an idol. Historical Israel lost the land because of their lack of faith; a modern day creation, militarily backed does not constitute God's will.
You know something Carey? If you beat a dog long enough he will turn on you and bite. The Palestinians have every right to defend their selves and properties, it is within mans' rights to resist occupation and persecution. Gaza has been a virtual prison since the illegal settlers left, every entry and exit controlled by others, people, innocent men, women and children, are slowly dying of starvation and sickness.
These people just want to live the same as you or I able to provide and care for their families in freedom and with out fear. And for one to say Israel is justified because of some home made old and out dated rockets that nine and 1/2 times out of 10 do not hit a target, verses Israels elite (#5 in the world) army is ridiculous. I mean think about it, a million and half people collectively punished because of a few radicals (more and more are recruited everyday because of hopelessness, despair and humiliation) because Israel is threatened? I am sorry but this makes me sick and this belief that Israel is Divine is sacrilegious. We will only be blessed when we treat all peoples as we would our selves. Christ did not teach exclusion.
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Every time Israel has offered the Palestinians concessions the bombs do not stop.
What would you have a government do to protect their citizens from the tactics of Hamas Hizbullah the Martyrs Gregade etc. ???
The land covenant was never replaced.
Sons of God Are Heirs of Promise
Galatians3:23 Now before faith 1 came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners 2 until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian 3 until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous 4 by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.5 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 563:27 For all of you who 57 were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave 58 nor free, there is neither male nor female 59 for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams descendants, 60 heirs according to the promise.
Yes and those heirs spoken of here are the ones that are heirs to the KIngdom and that is a seperate covenant from the land covenant that was everlasting.
Ever lasting means what??
Main Entry: 1ev·er·last·ing
Pronunciation: \ˌe-vər-ˈlas-tiŋ\ Function: adjective Date: 13th century 1: lasting or enduring through all time : eternal<H4>Genesis 17</H4><H5>The Covenant of Circumcision </H5> 1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [b] ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreignerthose who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Because Abraham walked upright God promised the land to his Heirs.
The rightful heirs now have and rule the land .
They do their only requirement for the land... ( Flesh )circumcision .
This does not mean they will get to heaven unless they accept a seperate covenant to get to heaven and inherit the Kingdom of heaven that will eventually be sitting literally on top of the land.
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Responding to an international outcry over a looming humanitarian crisis in Gaza, Israel decided to provide the crowded coastal Strip with cooking oil and fuel, including 2.2 million litres of diesel - enough to generate 60 megawatts of power in Gazas power plant for a week. They will also allow a single convoy through the Kerem Shalom crossing, which will include 500,000 litres of fuel for hospitals and 50 trucks of medical supplies and food. However, Palestinians still fired four rockets into the western Negev early Tuesday morning. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak stressed that they still have to put pressure on Gaza, saying, "Our concern has to be quiet for the residents of the western Negev and Sderot. If this silence requires a large noise on the other side, there will be noise." Israeli officials have also noted that Israel is closely monitoring the sanctions, and that a humanitarian crisis will not ensue. Israel insists there is already enough electricity since it regularly supplies 70 percent of Gaza's electricity needs.
Palestinian gunman on Tuesday morning fired from Gaza at farmers working at the same Ein Hashlosha kibbutz in the western Negev where an Ecuadorian volunteer was killed last week. Meanwhile, after Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak eased up restrictions on Gaza, rocket fire and mortar shells increased. Nine rockets and thirteen mortar shells were reported to have hit Israel, up from only four on Sunday.
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Every time Israel has offered the Palestinians concessions the bombs do not stop.
What would you have a government do to protect their citizens from the tactics of Hamas Hizbullah the Martyrs Gregade etc. ???
The land covenant was never replaced.
Sons of God Are Heirs of Promise
Galatians3:23 Now before faith 1 came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners 2 until the coming faith would be revealed. 3:24 Thus the law had become our guardian 3 until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous 4 by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.5 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 563:27 For all of you who 57 were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave 58 nor free, there is neither male nor female 59 – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, 60 heirs according to the promise.
Yes and those heirs spoken of here are the ones that are heirs to the KIngdom and that is a seperate covenant from the land covenant that was everlasting.
Ever lasting means what??
Main Entry: 1ev·er·last·ing
<H4>Genesis 17</H4><H5>The Covenant of Circumcision </H5> 1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [b] ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Because Abraham walked upright God promised the land to his Heirs.The rightful heirs now have and rule the land .They do their only requirement for the land... ( Flesh )circumcision .This does not mean they will get to heaven unless they accept a seperate covenant to get to heaven and inherit the Kingdom of heaven that will eventually be sitting literally on top of the land.
The home made rockets fly, because???? The 'OCCUPATION'; having every aspect of ones life controlled by others. Palestinians still suffer daily loss of life, land, homes, livelihood, etc. none stop for the past 40+ years. All in the name of the almighty idol 'Land'.
Israel is systematically destroying the Gaza Strip and the lives of the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there, but never is Israel's collective ravaging of a civilian population denounced for what it is: a war crime. International Middle East Media Center (www.imemc.org) reports the startling body counts for a 4-day period. On Tuesday, January 15, the Israeli army killed 17 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in less than 4 hours and wounded 45, at least 12 of them critically. A handful of the casualties were fighters who were resisting an Israeli onslaught; the rest were civilians. The next day, three members of the Yazji family-a man, his brother, and his 5-year-old son--were killed by an Israeli missile fired at their car. On Thursday, a woman and two of her sons were killed in Bayt Lahiya, in another incident, a husband and wife were killed in their car. By Friday, the death toll for the 4-day period had risen to 37, a high casualty rate even by the permissive standards Israel allows its army in the Gaza Strip. At this rate, Israel will easily surpass in 6 weeks the entire 2007 toll (200 Palestinians killed). The Web site does not mention the number of children orphaned during this killing spree.
Between September 2000 and November 2007, about 1,804 Palestinian civilians in Gaza were killed by the Israeli army and 11,300 were wounded; (in the past 6 yrs only 12 Israelis have been killed due to the home made rockets) 2,931 homes were completely destroyed, and 2,848 homes were partially destroyed. Because 71% of the population is refugees, the probability is high that those made homeless by Israel's periodic rampages were losing their homes for the second or third time. Gazan households typically consist of 6-7 people, and so the number of people affected by a single death, an injury, or a house demolition is huge.
But then Carey you could care less about these families/people as long and the land agenda is filled to completion.
Curious why Christ never made a point of talking about 'the land' especially he, himself, living under occupation?
Carey an everlasting covenant does not excuse one from injustice, an everlasting covenant does not ever place one above the law.
Humanitarian impact of Israel's blockade of Gaza
Gaza's 1.5 million residents are struggling to cope without electricity and other basic necessities on the fourth day of an Israeli blockade.
http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=01hqVzViFTw
Hamas says won't abandon rockets under Israel attack
Palestinians will keep targeting Israel with rockets as long as the Jewish state continues its "onslaught" on Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said on Tuesday.
http://www.alertnet .org/thenews/ newsdesk/ L22846387. htm
Resistance fires homemade shells at settlements near the Gaza Strip
The Al Quds brigades, the armed wing of the Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility on Tuesday evening of firing several homemade shells at Kfar Azza settlement, east of the Gaza Strip, and Al Majdal town, north of the Gaza Strip.
http://www.imemc. org/article/ 52413
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The home made rockets fly, because???? The 'OCCUPATION'; having every aspect of ones life controlled by others. Palestinians still suffer daily loss of life, land, homes, livelihood, etc. none stop for the past 40+ years. All in the name of the almighty idol 'Land'.
Israel is systematically destroying the Gaza Strip and the lives of the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there, but never is Israel's collective ravaging of a civilian population denounced for what it is: a war crime. International Middle East Media Center (www.imemc.org) reports the startling body counts for a 4-day period. On Tuesday, January 15, the Israeli army killed 17 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in less than 4 hours and wounded 45, at least 12 of them critically. A handful of the casualties were fighters who were resisting an Israeli onslaught; the rest were civilians. The next day, three members of the Yazji family-a man, his brother, and his 5-year-old son--were killed by an Israeli missile fired at their car. On Thursday, a woman and two of her sons were killed in Bayt Lahiya, in another incident, a husband and wife were killed in their car. By Friday, the death toll for the 4-day period had risen to 37, a high casualty rate even by the permissive standards Israel allows its army in the Gaza Strip. At this rate, Israel will easily surpass in 6 weeks the entire 2007 toll (200 Palestinians killed). The Web site does not mention the number of children orphaned during this killing spree.
Between September 2000 and November 2007, about 1,804 Palestinian civilians in Gaza were killed by the Israeli army and 11,300 were wounded; (in the past 6 yrs only 12 Israelis have been killed due to the home made rockets) 2,931 homes were completely destroyed, and 2,848 homes were partially destroyed. Because 71% of the population is refugees, the probability is high that those made homeless by Israel's periodic rampages were losing their homes for the second or third time. Gazan households typically consist of 6-7 people, and so the number of people affected by a single death, an injury, or a house demolition is huge.
But then Carey you could care less about these families/people as long and the land agenda is filled to completion.
Curious why Christ never made a point of talking about 'the land' especially he, himself, living under occupation?
Carey an everlasting covenant does not excuse one from injustice, an everlasting covenant does not ever place one above the law.
Humanitarian impact of Israel's blockade of Gaza
Gaza's 1.5 million residents are struggling to cope without electricity and other basic necessities on the fourth day of an Israeli blockade.
http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=01hqVzViFTw
Hamas says won't abandon rockets under Israel attack
Palestinians will keep targeting Israel with rockets as long as the Jewish state continues its "onslaught" on Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said on Tuesday.
http://www.alertnet .org/thenews/ newsdesk/ L22846387. htm
Resistance fires homemade shells at settlements near the Gaza Strip
The Al Quds brigades, the armed wing of the Islamic Jihad, claimed responsibility on Tuesday evening of firing several homemade shells at Kfar Azza settlement, east of the Gaza Strip, and Al Majdal town, north of the Gaza Strip.
http://www.imemc. org/article/ 52413
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
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And what has this got to do with the Israeli occupation the Palestinian Territories? What has this got to do with the current injustice suffered by the innocent Palestinian people?
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