Why holding scripture up to high esteem is NOT worshipping an idol.

[simonthezealot]

If it were then Christ Himself did...

Jesus' words,
... haven't you read what was spoken to you by God:

 

[Wgw]

I agree, amd I think so do most Orthodox and RCs.

Bibliolatry is rather manifest when people take an unscriptural view of Scripture; that is to say, it becomes regarded as uncreated and unoriginate; John 1:1-14 is read as referring to it rather than our Lord. One sees the nadir of this in the extremes of the KJVO movement, where you have people who regard KJVs with updated spelling and punctuation as blasphemous.

 

[brinny]

If it were then Christ Himself did...

Jesus' words,
... haven't you read what was spoken to you by God:

i agree.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Lol.

 

[farout]

If it were then Christ Himself did...

Jesus' words,
... haven't you read what was spoken to you by God:

Over and over in both the Old and New Testaments the genuine believers who follow Yahweh have been chosen. Those who follow Christ always place The Almighty Creator as highest above all. The Lover of our Soul has given His WORD to guide and instruct us . The written Word is unmistakable as a precious protected record of how Yahweh has dealt with mankind in the past as well the recorded events and instructions our Lord Jesus Christ, and the instructions given to we who are chosen, and to the churches by the Apostles given for believers then and mow. These sixty six books are God inspired, recorded as the Holy Spirit directed the authors to record.

The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are above all, nothing is to be Worshiped but the Holy Trinity.

 

[simonthezealot]

It is holding in esteem the very breath of God, breathed out for us.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is holding in esteem the very breath of God, breathed out for us.

Ok.
Terminology is about to get real.
lol

You know, the the terminology of worship/esteem/venerate/et., etc . seems itself to be half the problem, the RC to their merit, have proposed the latria, dulia, hyper-dulia distinctions... but generally are too embarrassed to admit they "worship" (hyper-dulia) Mary. Or descend into self contradictions obvious to all except themselves.
Most Protestants are unaware of those distinctions and seem to get outraged with statues, but are blind to their own blind loyalty toward scripture. I regard that as personal intellectual negligence regarding ...well, regarding a whole host of things are just 'the response of a good conscience toward God' to paraphrase Peter's description of what baptism is.
God is thrilling.
Our ways of expressing that joy are culturally, religiously filtered.
When we make accusations, we vent our outrage.
When we offer moderation as an alternative, we make ourselves less desirable of a target for venting.
Just a thought.
I was always a little uncomfortable with statues and holy hardware in general, but I believe it is because God got to me personally before the diocese did. And he revealed Himself to me though His creation as described in Psalm 19.
Nothing like personal relationship.

 

[Tigger45]

Although scripture is God breathed therefore powerful, effectual, life giving and prophetic. It is only because of God who is singularly worthy to be worshiped Himself.

 

[brinny]

It is holding in esteem the very breath of God, breathed out for us.

I agree. God's Word is a delight. It IS God-breathed.

God's Word is LIVING. It is written:

"For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." ~Hebrews 4:12[/b]

God is a DELIGHTFUL God. So is His Word.

 

[Rick Otto]

Although scripture is God breathed therefore powerful, effectual, life giving and prophetic. It is only because of God who is singularly worthy to be worshiped Himself.

Fine.
Of what is this worship composed, that we may know it when we encounter it, with the same surety you have about God being singularly worthy of it?

 

[Tigger45]

Fine.
Of what is this worship composed, that we may know it when we encounter it, with the same surety you have about God being singularly worthy of it?

But see the problem here is revealing the intent of someone's heart. We can post official dictionary definitions of worship, adore or revere but objectively proving when someone holds one or the other undeniably for anything is impossible whether it be scripture or more regularly argued here at CF, Marian devotion.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont see how someone can miss either a worshipper's body language or over the top praise of their idols when putting on their open shows, whether to a false God (or deity) or an idolized deified human.

To worship here is also to venerate, to regard as a god, pray to the same, make images to the same, sing worship songs to the same, overpraising them. Wanting experiences with their immortalized versions offering some of the same praises to them that belong to God alone.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ok.
Terminology is about to get real.
lol

You know, the the terminology of worship/esteem/venerate/et., etc . seems itself to be half the problem, the RC to their merit, have proposed the latria, dulia, hyper-dulia distinctions... but generally are too embarrassed to admit they "worship" (hyper-dulia) Mary. Or descend into self contradictions obvious to all except themselves.
Most Protestants are unaware of those distinctions and seem to get outraged with statues, but are blind to their own blind loyalty toward scripture. I regard that as personal intellectual negligence regarding ...well, regarding a whole host of things are just 'the response of a good conscience toward God' to paraphrase Peter's description of what baptism is.
God is thrilling.
Our ways of expressing that joy are culturally, religiously filtered.
When we make accusations, we vent our outrage.
When we offer moderation as an alternative, we make ourselves less desirable of a target for venting.
Just a thought.
I was always a little uncomfortable with statues and holy hardware in general, but I believe it is because God got to me personally before the diocese did. And he revealed Himself to me though His creation as described in Psalm 19.
Nothing like personal relationship.

Rick, I might not be getting you right there. Are you equating (in some way) certains loyalty to chunks of cement (shaped by hands) to anothers loyalty to the instructions given the churches from our God (even though it was written by hands)?

That part of your post I am stuck at but Im not too swift and a lot of time you fly way over my head

(and use words I dont need a dictionary for)

 

[Rick Otto]

Rick, I might not be getting you right there. Are you equating (in some way) certains loyalty to chunks of cement (shaped by hands) to anothers loyalty to the instructions given the churches from our God (even though it was written by hands)?

That part of your post I am stuck at but Im not too swift and a lot of time you fly way over my head

(and use words I dont need a dictionary for)

I am being forgiving of equating those things, on the ground of maturity in faith.
I'm saying worship as a term needs to be better understood, and appreciated if not endorsed, as a peaceful expression of faith.
It is still important to bring people out of excesses with enlightenment, but our approach may have more impact than the idea we approach with.

 

[Rick Otto]

But see the problem here is revealing the intent of someone's heart. We can post official dictionary definitions of worship, adore or revere but objectively proving when someone holds one or the other undeniably for anything is impossible whether it be scripture or more regularly argued here at CF, Marian devotion.

Ok, fine. You have identified intention as the identifier of worship.
So any action or non-action at all, if intended to be so, is worship.
So then, if intention is impossible to prove, no one should EVER be accused of idolatry, because no one can prove it, right?

 

[Rick Otto]

I dont see how someone can miss either a worshipper's body language or over the top praise of their idols when putting on their open shows, whether to a false God (or deity) or an idolized deified human.

To worship here is also to venerate, to regard as a god, pray to the same, make images to the same, sing worship songs to the same, overpraising them. Wanting experiences with their immortalized versions offering some of the same praises to them that belong to God alone.

I agree. To say a person's motivation (intention) cannot be proven, doesn't ring true, to me.

 

[simonthezealot]

but generally are too embarrassed to admit they "worship" (hyper-dulia) Mary. .

right, and not to sidetrack my own thread but funny enough there own Popes don't seem to be...
17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Now these latter can only have one object, which is that we should fully carry out what the divine Son of Mary commands. For if true love alone has the power to unite the wills of men, it is of the first necessity that we should have one will with Mary to serve Jesus our Lord. What this most prudent Virgin said to the servants at the marriage feast of Cana she addresses also to us: "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye" (John ii., 5). Now here is the word of Jesus Christ: "If you would enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. xix., 17). Let them each one fully convince himself of this, that if his piety towards the Blessed Virgin does not hinder him from sinning, or does not move his will to amend an evil life, it is a piety deceptive and Iying, wanting as it is in proper effect and its natural fruit.

Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum (02/02/1904)

 

[Fireinfolding]

I am being forgiving of equating those things, on the ground of maturity in faith.
I'm saying worship as a term needs to be better understood, and appreciated if not endorsed, as a peaceful expression of faith.
It is still important to bring people out of excesses with enlightenment, but our approach may have more impact than the idea we approach with.

Here is what I dont get, the making of the scriptures an idol, I believe it is falsely called this, especially since we are to love the LORD our God with all our hearts (which is inclusive of all our minds) as we are also given the words even in written form for our instruction. Whereof should come the form of sound doctrine for our own obedience. These words orginating with God, given unto us through the prophets and the apostles teachings. Jesus speaks of a twofold abiding "Me and my words". And he that abideth not in the doctrine (even the words) of Christ, hath not God. I dont get calling those who seek to hold to His words as "word idolators" because that is what it seems to come down to. You cant literally worship words on a page, and even if you could in some very corny sense of things such as lighting candles "to the book" and believe that the paper its written on is God (verses the words from God) I have never met one. But to equate God's words to that which is idolatrous seems to be calling what is from our good Shepherd (even the writings of the prophets and apostles) evil since idolatry is evil and is something to flee from. So to me, its as if certain want you to cast His words of truth to the ground and to flee Gods words (as is from idols) as if the words themselves and holding to them are sinful or something.

That whole thing boggles my mind to equate what God has spoken (and is written for us) for instruction in righteousness to something evil (such as idolatry) which somehow someone needs to be departed from (which in this case that would be His words).

See what I mean?

 

[Tigger45]

I agree. To say a person's motivation (intention) cannot be proven, doesn't true, to me.

Ok, fine. You have identified intention as the identifier of worship.
So any action or non-action at all, if intended to be so, is worship.
So then, if intention is impossible to prove, no one should EVER be accused of idolatry, because no one can prove it, right?

So what are you going to do when you have two individuals silently kneeling before an icon of the BVM. One is just praying to her and the other is worshiping her. If they both deny they are worshiping her what are ya gonna do to prove it? I see this played out on thread after thread after thread with no results. Our jobs as watchmen on the tower is to warn what might be a sin but after that your just beating a dead horse. That's why scripture reminds us only God knows the intent of ones heart.

 

[Fireinfolding]

There are certain positions that could invite judgement perhaps abstaining from the appearnce of evil might help.

If you walk into two people laying down upon a bed gazing into each others eyes we shouldnt assume they are in bed thinking about going where they ought not go? Even though being stationed in that position (between the two) where they are is not wise and providing an opportunity for their flesh.

I dont think most folks would encourage that (or their positions) or what it looks like.