why have children if there is a chance they will end up not being one of the elect?

Ribosome

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i listen to reformed pastors on the computer. piper, washer, spurgeon, and go to macarthur's church from time to time. i dont really understand much about how predestination works and how everything else works with it. it is very confusing. so far however, i dont like the idea of having free will, and my salvation being dependant on MY choice.

however, i just had a question come up to my head. i remembered how i saw a clip of piper saying something about how he doesnt know if all his children will be ones of God's elect. i dont remember what he said after that.

but now i wonder, how could i have children if they might end up not being one of the elect? i would just have children only for them to perish, and i cannot do anything about it. not all children that grow up in good christian homes get saved.

if i was an arminian, then at least i could feel that i have some control over this problem, and that maybe if i teach them right, or find the right way to their heart that they could make a choice to recieve salvation. but with calvinism, it seems there is no control over your children at all. you'd just give birth to people that will perish. it seems better not to give them life at all. giving birth to people from who God withholds his salvation, and they happen to be your children!

then again, with arminianism, you will blame yourself for the rest of your life that you didnt say the right words or find the right way to your child's heart.

both options seem terrible. seems like the best thing to do is not to have children.
 

James1979

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grant,

Welcome to life, that's the way God has designed his plan to be and there's not much we can do about it. Lot of the people in the bible weren't of the elect either. Remeber, esau? Definitely not one of the elect. What about Cain? Definitely not one of the elect. King Saul, definitely not one of the elect and his father and mother gave birth to him, it was out of their control too.
 
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heymikey80

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"The Lord wants godly offspring."

Redemption is the entire point. The fact is, some children shall be redeemed by the God of the Universe. How would one accept this truth and still have despair about giving birth to children?
 
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heymikey80

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so a question for everyone, well maybe two questions

Will you love your children even if they don't get saved? and does God love them even if they will go to hell?
Yes, and yes.

Mt 5:44-48 comes to mind.
 
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epistemaniac

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grant, in response to "but i would like to know, how can one accept this truth and still have joy about giving birth to children?"

I personally have joy in the birth of all my children and I am a Calvinist. Since we are talking about subjective emotions here... I guess that I do experience joy should be enough. The "why" I have joy is that I know God is a just judge, He is merciful and kind and WILL save the elect. Are my children (any or all) part of the elect? I don't know, but then again, its not my business to know. If they are, they WILL be saved. If there are not I know that in heaven, He will wipe every tear from our eyes. I know God will have acted justly towards my children.

as far as your other 2 questions:
God expresses love to all while on earth... for the non-elect, they get what is called "common grace", the rain falls and the sun shines on the just and unjust alike.. God shows them this undeserved mercy while on earth. Since I am to love (remember that here we need a biblical definition of "love") everyone, of course I will love my children. And, again, I do not know if they are among the elect or not. I certainly cannot go around withholding or giving out my love based on who I personally think are the elect or non-elect. Some of those who appear to be of the elect may not actually be, and some who are not presently seving the Lord may eventually do so... mine is not to make these sorts of judgments, mine is to love as I am commanded. Its the same for evagelism itself.. why preach to persons at all since God will save the elect no matter what, and those who are not of the elect will never be saved.... right? Again, its not my job to try and determine who is elect and who is not, I am to preach the gospel, knowing that if a person does repent and turn its not because of my persuasive words, after all I am little more than Balaam's Ass, the really awesome thing is that God will infallibly use my very fallible words to draw His child to Him, even in spite of all my limitations!! All I have to worry about is being obedient, preach the gospel, and let God decide to use my words as the means by which He may draw His Bride to Himself. So too with our children. All we need to do is to be obedient. We are to fill the earth and subdue it.... children are a blessing... we thank God for all our children and let God decide to save all those whom He will... enjoying and loving our children along the way because that is what we are commanded to do...
 
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Skala

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Why have children even if you don't believe in predestination?

The Bible teaches that all fallen men, by nature, are hostile to God and find the gospel foolishness.

Unless God intervenes by grace, all children (and thus all people) would go to hell.

So if you don't believe in predestination, but simply believe God sits back and waits to see what fallen men do...what would happen? If we take serious the attitude fallen man has towards God, it seems to me that 100% of people would end up in hell.

Thus predestination is mandatory if anyone at all is to be saved. Predestination is grace on God's part.

Predestination puts nobody in hell who wouldn't be there otherwise. Rather, it saves men who are headed to hell, and gives them mercy so that they go to heaven.
 
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epistemaniac

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excellent points skala... Reformed views on election at least guarantee that some will be saved. Arminianism's hypothetical universalism doesn't and either way, there is no way one could, from a human parent's perspective, know if your child will be among the saved or not, whether you are Arminian or Calvinist. So to be consistent, if someone was to say that we should not have children because we don't know if they are among the elect, likewise then, the Arminian shouldn't have children either because there is no way they can know whether or not they will choose Christ.
 
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Skala

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excellent points skala... Reformed views on election at least guarantee that some will be saved. Arminianism's hypothetical universalism doesn't and either way, there is no way one could, from a human parent's perspective, know if your child will be among the saved or not, whether you are Arminian or Calvinist. So to be consistent, if someone was to say that we should not have children because we don't know if they are among the elect, likewise then, the Arminian shouldn't have children either because there is no way they can know whether or not they will choose Christ.

True brother, but let me remind you that Arminianism does believe in election. Arminianism does believe that before creation, God elected some people, and not others, to be saved. (His choice was based on their foreseen faith)

Thus Arminians, too, believe that during time, only the elect will be saved and have the possibility of being saved.

So the same argument works against Arminians too. Why have kids? You don't know of they will be the elect or not.
 
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light_eclipseca

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Keep in mind, also, the reason we do anything. Obedience and love for God. We take joy in God's blessings, and the Bible clearly teaches that children are a blessing from God and we are to take joy in them. Arminians and Calvinists would agree on this.

That being said, some people have chemical problems in their brains and cannot experience happiness and peace naturally. He also works in those people to be able to experience peace and joy through doctors & therapy, etc., and the teachings in the Word of God. In some cases, those people can realize the supernatural power of God more than others who do not feel as dependent on Him. I guess this point is more for another forum to discuss though.
 
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Ryft

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How could I have children if they might end up not being one of the elect? ... If I was an Arminian, then at least I could feel that I have some control over this problem ...

As already pointed out by others, it is not true that an Arminian can escape this dilemma because the Arminian likewise has no idea whether or not his children will be counted among those chosen by God (having foreseen their enduring faith).
 
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hedrick

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Calvinism doesn't change as much as some people think. Because God works through humans, our work with children can certainly make a difference in their salvation. Calvinists simply say that God has a plan that covers everything, including what we do or don't do in spreading the Gospel. Of course God also acts directly through the Holy Spirit, but Arminians agree with that.

God's plan is not visible to us. Partly I think because it would create a causal loop. Basically all we can do is act in accordance with our goals, just as an Arminian would. The only thing Calvinism adds is an understanding that God is in control, and means everything to help us in the long run. It doesn't, however, change the importance of us doing things.

Arminians have the same concern with children that we do, since they also acknowledge that some will not be saved. Indeed why limit it to children? Why not simply ask why God created people at all, since some would end up rejecting him? I assume he wanted to share his love with us, and would rather do that even though the approach he needed to follow also ended up with some people incapable of what he wanted.

I would think we would take the same view of children.
 
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alton3

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Calvinism has always cautioned against overconfidence in one's own election. Rather than stress over your children's salvation "knowing," perhaps falsely, that you're safe - always strive to question and improve your own salvation and the Godly example you give to your children. If you truly acknowledge God's sovereignty, worry is naught but vanity.
 
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Foghorn

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but now i wonder, how could i have children if they might end up not being one of the elect? i would just have children only for them to perish, and i cannot do anything about it. not all children that grow up in good christian homes get saved.
This is one big question I had just after I started to see the truth of predestination. And after 9 years, this is the question that always keeps me thinking and checking. But the fact of the matter is, I cannot deny the truth. No matter how much I look for something to disprove the reformed doctrine of predestination I cannot find anything, but, it just confirms it more.
And along with it comes a peace.
 
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pdudgeon

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excellent points skala... Reformed views on election at least guarantee that some will be saved. Arminianism's hypothetical universalism doesn't and either way, there is no way one could, from a human parent's perspective, know if your child will be among the saved or not, whether you are Arminian or Calvinist. So to be consistent, if someone was to say that we should not have children because we don't know if they are among the elect, likewise then, the Arminian shouldn't have children either because there is no way they can know whether or not they will choose Christ.

but the main difference here is that the Arminian knows that their children have a chance to choose Jesus, while the Calvinist knows no such thing.
and that makes all the difference.

in a way it's similar to giving or not giving your child a college education.
you don't know whether your child will take advantage of the education, and likewise you don't know whether the child without a college education will succeed. All you can do is put the tools and the advantages in front of them and give them the chance to use them advantageously.

but with Calvinism whether you send you child to school or keep them out, whether you train them up in the Lord or let them go on their own way, whether you provide for them or kick them out makes no difference when it comes to heaven. they don't get a choice and you don't have a responsibility.

except that's not what my bible tells me. My bible tells me that as a parent i do have a responsibility to train them up in the way they should go. My bible tells me that I should tell them, and that i am responsible to tell them about God and Jesus, to teach them right from wrong, to nurish and care for them.

Calvinism would say that none of that care and teaching and training matters; that they could have not a smidgen of religious upbringing or care and still be chosen.

that may be fine, but i'd like to see how such a child ends up to be good if they were never taught that there was such a thing.

what if they die never knowing that there is a God who created them, their life is a shipwreck, and yet they end up in heaven as one of the chosen?
how does that make any sense? Even in Arminiasm there is the possibility of a wasted life turned around by repentence before the end. But in Calvinism is there any such thing?
 
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Foghorn

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While I have an outrigging of beliefs with regards to predestination and choice, I did pray for each child once conceived that God would bless them, cause them to follow him, and keep them healthy. He did all that. :)
Praise God!
 
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