Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

[claninja]

But let's stay focused on the present

Yes, let's stay focused, you still haven't answered my question, which is what you originally responded too. What were the believing gentiles grafted into that Unbelieving Israelites were cut out of?

the Great Tribulation, and the millennial reign.

Not really concerned about these topics, as that is not what I asked about.

there will be the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21. All previous things will pass away. There is no distinction in tribes, nations, peoples in that future period.

This is my entire point. The spiritual promises are much better than the physical.

Israel is given the land that was promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, during the millennial reign.

Israel was already given the promise land under the old covenant. But this is physical and the spiritual is always better.

You seem to be avoiding answering my questions.

 

[Quasar92]

Couple of questions about this statement

1. What were the gentiles grafted into in Romans 11:17?
2. If the church is not part of Israel (Abraham's seed), how does it inherit the promises: Galatians 3:29?
3. How are the OT saints made perfect outside of the body of Christ: Hebrews 11:39?

Notice that branches are alluded to in the case of both Israel as well as new believers. The ROOT is Jesus Christ/God that we are grafted into. Review John 15 for another view of this issue.

The Church is Abrahams seed through Jesus Christ.

The righteous OT saints are not saved until they recognize Jesus s their Lord and Savior. They all had their opportunity when Jesus went to shel/prison in the Spirit, and preached the Gospel to them there, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. When He ascended into heaven, He took all of them who believed/received Him as Lord, to heaven with Him, as recorded in Eph.4:7-10, confirming Ps.68:18.

When Jesus returns from heaven in His second advent, they will return with Him, in His armies from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14, and reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:6.


Quasar92

 

[Copperhead]

Yes, let's stay focused, you still haven't answered my question, which is what you originally responded too. What were the believing gentiles grafted into that Unbelieving Israelites were cut out of?

The root. Did you not read the book of Romans?

 

[claninja]

The root. Did you not read the book of Romans?

So is the church and OT saints part of the same root or different roots?

 

[Copperhead]

Are there different roots?

 

[claninja]

Are there different roots?

That is what I asked you, as it appears you believe in 2 separate groups: Israel and the church.

For the root and branches are 1 plant:
Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

However, if Israel (OT saints) is separate from the church, as you say, what root does it belong too?

 

[Quasar92]

So is the church and OT saints part of the same root or different roots?

Is not Paul referring to one root in Rom.11:17? Where some of Israel's branches have been broken off, and new ELECT of God , have been grafted into it?

Why should there be more than one root?


Quasar92

 

[claninja]

Is not Paul referring to one root in Rom.11:17? Where some of Israel's branches have been broken off, and new ELECT of God , have been grafted into it?

Why should there be more than one root?


Quasar92

He is saying there is 1 root. So if the church and Israel are part of the same root, how are they separate?

 

[Quasar92]

Are there different roots?

Israel is one of God's elect, whom He has not rejected. The Church is His other elect. When Jn.10:16 is fulfilled in Jesus 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, as recorded in Acts 2:29-30; 15:16 and Rev.20:6, the two elects will become one, with one Shephed.


Quasar92

 

[claninja]

Notice that branches are alluded to in the case of both Israel as well as new believers. The ROOT is Jesus Christ/God that we are grafted into. Review John 15 for another view of this issue.

The Church is Abrahams seed through Jesus Christ.

The righteous OT saints are not saved until they recognize Jesus s their Lord and Savior. They all had their opportunity when Jesus went to shel/prison in the Spirit, and preached the Gospel to them there, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. When He ascended into heaven, He took all of them who believed/received Him as Lord, to heaven with Him, as recorded in Eph.4:7-10, confirming Ps.68:18.

When Jesus returns from heaven in His second advent, they will return with Him, in His armies from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14, and reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:6.


Quasar92

So how is Israel (OT saints) separate from the church, if they are both part of the same root?

 

[BABerean2]

The Remnant of Israel (subtitle from eSword)

Rom 11:1　 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.　
Rom 11:2　 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,　
Rom 11:3　 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.　
Rom 11:4　 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.　
Rom 11:5　 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.　

Throughout the Old Testament there were two groups of Israelites.
One group remained faithful to God's Plan and the other group turned away from God.
Paul said the same was true during his time.

The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into the same tree.
Those broken off of the Olive Tree can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.

Paul provides no plan of salvation outside of the Olive Tree.

.

 

[Quasar92]

He is saying there is 1 root. So if the church and Israel are part of the same root, how are they separate?

See my post #149. At the present time, Israel are non-believers and are the broken off branches, but will be grafted back in again at Jesus second advent, according to Zech.12:10. The Church is presently a second elect. But they will become one when Jesus reigns in His 1,000 year kingdom, fulfilling Jn.10:16


Quasar92.

 

[mark kennedy]

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."Deuteronomy 30:7-8 God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

Ok, Israel as a nation doesn't repent until the middle of the Tribulation, just before the Great Tribulation starts during the Trumpet judgments. After the first four seals, the four horsemen run wild and the opening of the fifth seal shows the martyrs beneath the altar. After the wrath of the sixth seal they are hiding in caves and the dens of the rocks calling for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Question, how do they know it's the Lamb? Personally I think it's the testimony of the church leading up to the sixth seal judgment. What are your thoughts?

The Tribulation Focuses on IsraelThe Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains: The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

Even the most staunch Dispensationalist could tell you that Israel is under the protection of what has come to be known as, the covenant of death. Thematically it's related to the many times Israel went down to Egypt for help, and forged other alliances with the nations around them. The abomination that causes desolation is basically an idol set up in the Temple, or perhaps a Tabernacle, there is no way Israel is going to believe the Messiah wants them to worship an idol.

That will get us started.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[claninja]

See my post #149. At the present time, Israel are non-believers and are the broken off branches, but will be grafted back in again at Jesus second advent, according to Zech.12:10. The Church is presently a second elect. But they will become one when Jesus reigns in His 1,000 year kingdom, fulfilling Jn.10:16


Quasar92.

This does not answer the question

 

[Copperhead]

That is what I asked you, as it appears you believe in 2 separate groups: Israel and the church.

For the root and branches are 1 plant:
Ephesians 5:31-32 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

However, if Israel (OT saints) is separate from the church, as you say, what root does it belong too?

If there are different branches in a tree, do they share in the same root? Are they then no longer different branches but the same branch?

 

[claninja]

If there are different branches in a tree, do they share in the same root? Are they then no longer different branches but the same branch?

If branches come from the same root, then the the whole plant is one. Israel and the church both come from the same root and are therefore one.

 

[Quasar92]

Ok, Israel as a nation doesn't repent until the middle of the Tribulation, just before the Great Tribulation starts during the Trumpet judgments. After the first four seals, the four horsemen run wild and the opening of the fifth seal shows the martyrs beneath the altar. After the wrath of the sixth seal they are hiding in caves and the dens of the rocks calling for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Question, how do they know it's the Lamb? Personally I think it's the testimony of the church leading up to the sixth seal judgment. What are your thoughts?



Even the most staunch Dispensationalist could tell you that Israel is under the protection of what has come to be known as, the covenant of death. Thematically it's related to the many times Israel went down to Egypt for help, and forged other alliances with the nations around them. The abomination that causes desolation is basically an idol set up in the Temple, or perhaps a Tabernacle, there is no way Israel is going to believe the Messiah wants them to worship an idol.

That will get us started.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, at His SECOND COMING, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and in 14:4-5. Not in the middle of the tribulation. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven, against the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist and the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them.

Jesus and His armies from heaven will throw the two beasts into the lake of fire and destroy the armies of the ten horns/nations allied to them, ending the seven year period of tribulation.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

This does not answer the question

So, what then is there about it you don't see the answer to?


Quasar92

 

[Copperhead]

He is saying there is 1 root. So if the church and Israel are part of the same root, how are they separate?

Are those that trust in Messiah before the resurrection and beginning of the church part of the same body as those that come to faith in Messiah afterward? John the Baptist was the greatest of those born of woman, per Yeshua. That would imply greater than Abraham. Yet Yeshua said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John. If that is the case, and there is no category difference between those that trusted before Yeshua's death and resurrection and those after, does that mean that John is less than least (non sequitur) in the kingdom?

Likewise, Yeshua told Nicodemus that one cannot enter the kingdom unless they are born again. If John is "less than least" (non sequitur), does that mean he wasn't saved? And since John is the greatest born of women, does that mean Abraham, David, etc are also not saved?

 

[mark kennedy]

Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, at His SECOND COMING, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and in 14:4-5. Not in the middle of the tribulation. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven, against the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist and the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them.

Jesus and His armies from heaven will throw the two beasts into the lake of fire and destroy the armies of the ten horns/nations allied to them, ending the seven year period of tribulation.


Quasar92

Ok so Israel doesn't repent until the middle to late tribulation. That leaves us with the question of who the martyrs beneath the altar and the tribulation saints are.