Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Hal A Peno

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It was a foundational doctrine of the Reformation.

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
"...nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." (Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197)
And they were wrong not only about that but a few other things. Babylon is Babylon and associated with false religion. It's not Rome.
 
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jgr

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And they were wrong not only about that but a few other things. Babylon is Babylon and associated with false religion. It's not Rome.
Without the prophetic faith and sacrifice, frequently to the death, of the Reformers; you, I, and the Christian Church whose spiritual liberties and benefits we enjoy and take for granted today, would simply not exist. The death toll of true Christians over the more than 1000 years of the papacy is conservatively estimated at over 50 million. God raised up the Reformers to deliver His Church out of the spiritual Dark Ages. If they were wrong, then God was wrong. But He wasn't, and they weren't.
 
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Hal A Peno

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Without the prophetic faith and sacrifice, frequently to the death, of the Reformers; you, I, and the Christian Church whose spiritual liberties and benefits we enjoy and take for granted today, would simply not exist. The death toll of true Christians over the more than 1000 years of the papacy is conservatively estimated at over 50 million. God raised up the Reformers to deliver His Church out of the spiritual Dark Ages. If they were wrong, then God was wrong. But He wasn't, and they weren't.
And that estimate is blown way out of proportion. That's NOT TRUE. The real estimate is between 3-6 million. Much of those deaths were committed by the imperial factions of Rome, not Papal Rome. BUT. Catholicism has snapped out of it. Islam has stepped it up. It's estimated that since Islam began, Muslims have murdered between 250-270 million people.
Catholicism or Rome aren't prophesied in one verse in end time prophecy in the bible. Islam is written all over it.
 
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jgr

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And that estimate is blown way out of proportion. That's NOT TRUE. The real estimate is between 3-6 million. Much of those deaths were committed by the imperial factions of Rome, not Papal Rome. BUT. Catholicism has snapped out of it. Islam has stepped it up. It's estimated that since Islam began, Muslims have murdered between 250-270 million people.
Catholicism or Rome aren't prophesied in one verse in end time prophecy in the bible. Islam is written all over it.
ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER KILLED BY THE PAPACY IN THE MIDDLE AGES AND LATER

Daniel 7 little horn, Revelation 13 beast, 2 Thessalonians 2 man of sin, John's epistles antichrist
 
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Hal A Peno

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jgr,
You said,
"God raised up the Reformers to deliver His Church out of the spiritual Dark Ages. If they were wrong, then God was wrong. But He wasn't, and they weren't."
I would hope people wouldn't think like that because that too just isn't true. Those kind of claims are just unreasonable and overgloified. You say those thing to prop up your side when you're basically saying these reformers were infallible. The Pope being infallible??? I bet you've had plenty to say about that.
 
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jgr

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jgr,
You said,

I would hope people wouldn't think like that because that too just isn't true. Those kind of claims are just unreasonable and overgloified. You say those thing to prop up your side when you're basically saying these reformers were infallible. The Pope being infallible??? I bet you've had plenty to say about that.
There's no denying history.
 
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Hal A Peno

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ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER KILLED BY THE PAPACY IN THE MIDDLE AGES AND LATER

Daniel 7 little horn, Revelation 13 beast, 2 Thessalonians 2 man of sin, John's epistles antichrist
There are people who are bent on demonizing Catholicism. Many of the sources quoted were Catholic hating groups who were bent on making Catholicism look as bad as they can. Even today, it's obvious, those people are still around pushing these false numbers. It's just too funny though. The reformers had it out for Catholicism, even though it was shortly after the second round of the Crusades. It was the predominately the Catholics who saved Europe from falling to the Muslims hoards.

There's no evidence of Rome being involved in any prophecies of the last days.
 
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Copperhead

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If I may offer a perspective. Look at the descriptions given by Yeshua in Luke 21 and Matthew 24, they were two separate instances. The episode in Luke was done while Yeshua was walking about the Temple area. The Matthew account was on the Mount of Olives later.

Many try to work the similarities, but they fail to take into account they are two discussions at two different times and don't necessarily talk about the same events, though the language is similar. The episode in Luke primarily centers around the temple and Jerusalem and the discussion was at the Temple area. And those do match more to the AD 70 and AD 135 events. The Matthew episode occurs later on the Mount of Olives and centers more around the last days events as opposed to 1st century events.

I apologize in advance if this was noticed by someone else in a previous post. I might have missed it.
 
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jgr

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There are people who are bent on demonizing Catholicism. Many of the sources quoted were Catholic hating groups who were bent on making Catholicism look as bad as they can. Even today, it's obvious, those people are still around pushing these false numbers. It's just too funny though. The reformers had it out for Catholicism, even though it was shortly after the second round of the Crusades. It was the predominately the Catholics who saved Europe from falling to the Muslims hoards.

There's no evidence of Rome being involved in any prophecies of the last days.
History of itself neither demonizes nor deifies. It simply records. Everything I've cited is historically and/or scripturally verifiable.

One of the great deficiencies in today's Christian Church is its disdain for history. If you're a disciple, or partial disciple, of John Nelson Darby, you may know that he expressed that disdain explicitly. But as George Santayana appropriately observed (to paraphrase), "Those who reject history's lessons are condemned to repeat them."

I'd suggest you do some historical research on the associated topics.
 
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Hal A Peno

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There's no denying history.
Depends on whose history you believe. There's no denying both Papal and Imperial Rome committed atrocities in those ages. Over the centuries the goal of many was to inflate those numbers to the max and make Catholicism look as bad as they can. HISTORY!!! That's right! Who is cutting people's heads of today? Who's is burning people alive, plucking the eyes and tongues out of priest and nuns and shooting up schools, hospitals, and markets. Who is flying jet liners into skyscrapers?
 
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Copperhead

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Do a little study on the history of the Popes. One, while engaging in hanky panky with a woman, was killed by the jealous husband. One got his jollies by instructing young boys in self gratification. One historian commented that the reason there were so many harlots in Rome was because there were so many "celibates". While offenses against other Christians were indeed committed on occasion, the Huguenots comes to mind where one Pope in one afternoon had more Christians killed than most of the Roman emperors combined, corruption was the major hallmark of the Roman Church. The quest for earthly, temporal power.

And when one factors in that Adolf Hitler has still never been excommunicated from the Roman Church, it is easy to see why so many demonize the Roman Church. Those that do though, should make a distinction between the the Church and the people. There are many very good Catholics that lead excellent lives. Even some great clergy. But the hierarchy has a very checkered history.
 
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Hal A Peno

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History of itself neither demonizes nor deifies. It simply records. Everything I've cited is historically and/or scripturally verifiable.

One of the great deficiencies in today's Christian Church is its disdain for history. If you're a disciple, or partial disciple, of John Nelson Darby, you may know that he expressed that disdain explicitly. But as George Santayana appropriately observed (to paraphrase), "Those who reject history's lessons are condemned to repeat them."

I'd suggest you do some historical research on the associated topics.
I don't accept the numbers yo
Do a little study on the history of the Popes. One, while engaging in hanky panky with a woman, was killed by the jealous husband. One got his jollies by instructing young boys in self gratification. One historian commented that the reason there were so many harlots in Rome was because there were so many "celibates". While offenses against other Christians were indeed committed on occasion, the Huguenots comes to mind where one Pope in one afternoon had more Christians killed than most of the Roman emperors combined, corruption was the major hallmark of the Roman Church. The quest for earthly, temporal power.

And when one factors in that Adolf Hitler has still never been excommunicated from the Roman Church, it is easy to see why so many demonize the Roman Church. Those that do though, should make a distinction between the the Church and the people. There are many very good Catholics that lead excellent lives.
Again, this is nothing but historical badmouthing. It does nothing for the cause of Christ. The Protestants aren't off the hook either. They have blood on their hand too. Catholicism isn't the harlot or any of the beast. The reformers had it wrong.
 
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Copperhead

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No one said that Protestants were as pure as the wind driven snow either. The entire church was already screwing up before the ink was dry on the NT. Don't accept that, then re-read the letters to the seven churches in the Revelation and the sordid events in the letters to the Corinthians, or as I sometime call, the Californians. The bloodshed and corruption, there is plenty to go around. The only way to get a handle on it is to accept responsibility for it. And the Roman Church really has done nothing to accept full responsibility for their actions in history.
 
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Hal A Peno

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No one said that Protestants were as pure as the wind driven snow either. The entire church was already screwing up before the ink was dry on the NT. Don't accept that, then re-read the letters to the seven churches in the Revelation and the sordid events in the letters to the Corinthians, or as I sometime call, the Californians. The bloodshed and corruption, there is plenty to go around. The only way to get a handle on it is to accept responsibility for it. And the Roman Church really has done nothing to accept full responsibility for their actions in history.
Other than they don't do it anymore and have asked for forgiveness.
 
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Waggles

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@Hal A Peno you need to stop being so blind and closed minded... ortherwise you will never learn

Reactions to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre

The slaughter of over 100,000 unarmed French Protestants (Huguenots) within three weeks in 1572.
For which a song of celebration was composed and sung by the victorious Catholic Church
Also medals were struck to celebrate the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of the French Protestants

Huguenots.jpg

History is history. And Revelation is especially about history.
 
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Hal A Peno

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@Hal A Peno you need to stop being so blind and closed minded... ortherwise you will never learn

Reactions to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre

The slaughter of over 100,000 unarmed French Protestants (Huguenots) within three weeks in 1572.
For which a song of celebration was composed and sung by the victorious Catholic Church
Also medals were struck to celebrate the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of the French Protestants

View attachment 203810
History is history. And Revelation is especially about history.
I don't care what happened back then because it's water over the dam. I'm looking at today and how Catholicism doesn't persecute people anymore. I'm not looking to badmouth the Protestants or the Catholics. It does no good. But if tearing down others makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead.
There are no end-time prophecies concerning Rome. What evil they did is long past.
 
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Waggles

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4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain
upon the earth.

Revelation 18:
Rome is a city; Islam is not.
 
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Hal A Peno

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4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain
upon the earth.

Revelation 18:
Rome is a city; Islam is not.
That great city of Revelation 18 is Mecca. The great city of Revelation 17 is Jerusalem.
Revelation 18 is all about Mecca, it's mosque, Shrines, and palaces, and the oil rich Arab world, etc. The blood of the prophets are the two witnesses who are killed by Muslim's outside the Dome area.
"Come out of her my people" means people in general. No specific group.
 
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Copperhead

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Revelation 18 meaning Mecca is a bit of the stretch.

But Vatican heraldry does have a lot of Babylonian symbols incorporated in it. It can be somewhat argued that the veneration of Mary is strikingly similar to the Babylonian worship of Semiramis the queen of Babylon and the child Tammuz.

There have been good scholars on both sides, that Babylon in Revelation 18 is the Roman Church, and that it really is literal Babylon. I see no connection to Mecca, though it can also can be argued quite effectively that Islam is solidly built upon much of Babylonian religious concepts.

There are even some who argue effectively that America is alluded to as a viable application of Babylon in Revelation 18.

But, one can come to just about any conclusion that fits a presupposition. If one tortures the text long enough, it will confess to just about any eschatological position.
 
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Waggles said in post #94:

The anti-Christ has always been with us for almost 2,000 years.

Any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

But the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who's commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict there's an individual man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who's the Son of God (John 20:31).

The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the Bible by the Church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

*******

Waggles said in post #115:

History is history. And Revelation is especially about history.

Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
 
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