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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that just as the highly detailed Tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, so the Tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Are you thinking of Matthew 24:34?

    If so, note it refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the future Tribulation, and Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which He would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the Tribulation, Second Coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming in the 1st century AD, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

    Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the Tribulation which will immediately precede the Second Coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the Tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

    Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding your reference to Revelation 12:1-2, note the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

    Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

    Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10) but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    DECEIVERS

    Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

    Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

    Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

    We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke's account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus said: "And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them." Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

    Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

    According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

    An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

    Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

    Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

    WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

    Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

    Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

    Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

    We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

    Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

    In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

    Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

    But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." (See footnote). As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

    Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

    FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

    Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

    Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

    Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

    The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

    Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

    Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

    During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

    Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

    PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

    Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

    Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

    Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

    The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

    The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

    Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

    Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

    In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

    In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

    Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

    Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

    The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

    GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. (See footnote.) This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

    It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

    On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

    Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

    Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

    The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

    Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

    By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

    By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


    (FOOTNOTE When the disciples spoke of "the END of the world" (Mt.24:3), the word is SUNTELEIA (number 4930 in Strong's Concordance). But in verses 6 and 14, the word translated "end" is a different word altogether, TELOS (number 5056 in Strong's Concordance). Not realizing this, some read about "the end of the world in verse 3, and think that the word "end" in verses 6 and 14 refers to the end of the world also. But such is not the case. In verses 6 and 14 the primary end in view is the destruction of Jerusalem. Later in the passage, when Jesus answered the question about his coming and the end of the world, he used the term "that day"—when "heaven and earth shall pass away"—the end of the age.



    Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    See post #84.
     
  6. Robert76

    Robert76 Robert

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    Sorry for not responding sooner. Thank you for this information, I'm not very knowledgeable on this particular topic and the various churches I've been a part of have always taught 7 years. With that said, this will be a good opportunity for me to dig in and do some research. Thanks!
     
  7. Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

    Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 Active Member

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    Because if christians were alive when tribulation starts , anticrhist would not be able to deceive many because we would tell every1 about mark of beast.

    There need to be deceived nations so they can rise against Israel so then Israel can repent while being surrounded among many armies wanted to destroy them and accept Jesus Christ as thier Messiah.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 


    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

    The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

    Therefore, the New Covenant Church does not end before the Second Coming of Christ.

    .
     
  9. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    Another great deception and misunderstanding of our times.
    This Hollywood nonsense about some mythical futuristic all powerful god-like being who will enslave
    the world and insert a microchip into everyone.
    Complete rubbish.
    Anti-Christ has been around from the beginning and if anyone studied the history of Europe and Rome,
    church history, and did some timelines you pre-tribbers might understand the narrative of Revelation.
    Maybe even the significance of 1917 in history concerning prophecy, Daniel, Judah, the end times.

    Anti-Christ is the opposing of the original Apostolic gospel written for all to read and believe in our own
    NTs. And thus Rome replaced Mark 16:15-20 with the Nicene Creed and Luther did not much better.
    And so today the vast majority of christians are opposed to obedience to the one gospel delivered unto
    the saints and reject Mark 16:15-20 Even denouncing these scriptures and the epistles that reaffirm
    the truth of the anointing by the Holy Spirit.
    "The Church" so worthy of being raptured as claimed by those wearing rose coloured glasses cannot
    even submit to the fundamental commandment given by Jesus himself: that is a disciple must be
    baptized by full immersion.
    Now here is more evidence of the work of anti-Christ from the beginning right through to now -
    'give your heart to Jesus and believe on him.' Anti-Christ doctrine and practise that delivers no salvation nor discipleship to those deceived.

    The spirit of anti-Christ is still alive and very active. Opposing Pentecost and the teachings of Jesus
    and the Apostles. Preach Mark 16:15-20 and experience some anti-Christ right now.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that while Jesus Christ was originally speaking with His apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, in His mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 doesn't require Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including Jesus' never-fulfilled Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

    Similarly, in Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus Christ's still-unfulfilled Second Coming. That is, shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after the apostle John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, 1st century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a 1st century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all of the (to us) still-future events of the Tribulation and subsequent Second Coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

    Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus Christ's first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a New Heaven and New Earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Matthew 24:3 . . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Here the original Greek word (G0165) translated as "world" can indeed be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

    It's sometimes claimed the end of the age refers to the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus Christ died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment He brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles of the Church asked Jesus Christ about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), He didn't tell them the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd Jewish temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, or even at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at Jesus' post-tribulation, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell His apostles other things during His ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all non-Christians will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Are you thinking that people in the Church, that is, the elect of God (Colossians 3:12), can't be deceived?

    And do you base this on Matthew 24:24?

    If so, note that in Matthew 24:24 the original Greek doesn't say: "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it says: "if possible", meaning false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20) as part of Satan's intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says it's impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus Christ had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect: "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning it's possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

    The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before they become Christians (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The apostle Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it's possible for Christians to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    The fact Christians can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean Satan is stronger than God, or God would for no reason abandon a Christian, but means the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10, Proverbs 17:4a) applies even to Christians.

    --

    That is, one way a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they're no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Another way a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had been Christians before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could require everyone receive an injected RFID microchip, which could be used as an identification device, a debit/credit card, and a repository of emergency healthcare information (that is, it could alert emergency healthcare workers to any medicinal allergies or conditions an individual may have). But any such microchip would be separate from the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 16:2, Revelation 13:16-18). For the latter will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation, even one without electricity, whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will also be visible because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads.

    Also, the mark of the future Antichrist will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma: G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (that is, the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what was shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

    The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

    --

    Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they're Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded by the Antichrist, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient Church of all times) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

    In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (compare also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, and Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one who will cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. But he won't say he's Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

    In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the nations at the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

    The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (that is, they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like how a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes. For Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

    Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.
     
  14. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    Speculation. Pure fantasy. Hollywood fiction.
    The anti-Christ has always been with us for almost 2,000 years.
    The city that sits on seven hills. False doctrines. A person who succeeds his predecessor in office.
    A continuation of blasphemies against the word of God. A power that rules over many peoples over
    many lands across many seas. One who makes war against the Lamb and his saints.
    A faith that is worldly and corrupt in complete opposition to the spirituality and purity of the
    original gospel of salvation.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The disciples personally experienced everything that Christ had predicted about "ye".

    When do you think they became aware that "ye" was not "ye", and that Christ had not been addressing them at all?

    They must have been more than a little outraged at being deceived.

    A substantial and convincing volume of original evidence by acknowledged credible historical sources, in addition to the scriptural evidence itself, has been presented. This original evidence can only be unseated by an equivalent volume of equally convincing contrary evidence showing the original evidence (including the scriptural evidence) to be nonexistent or inaccurate. The actual historical fulfillments themselves can, of course, never be refuted.

    Until such contrary evidence is presented, the historical fulfillments, and the original evidence for them, stand unassailable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  16. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    The anti-Christ hasn't been with us for 2,000 years. He's an end-time figure. No Pope has ever been the man of sin.
    I know you're refering to Rome and the Popes. Rome doesn't sit on seven hills, and the word hill is an awful mistake, the word is oros which means mountains.
    Definetily true of Islam, NOT Catholicism. You blaspheme your own brothers and sisters.
    That again would be islam. In the month of July the were 179 Islamic attacks in 24 countries, 37 of them suicide blast, killing 1,275 people and injuring 931. Not you show me how many people Catholics have murdered in July.
    It's the same gospel. Islam, now that's a different gospel!
     
  17. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    Islam and Mohammed are referred to as the 'false prophet' not the anti-Christ.
    The work of the anti-Christ is within Christianity and opposes the truth of the gospels and Acts.
    Islam, like Buddhism, Shinto or Hinduism, is not a corruption and reworking of the gospel; it is
    another religion in opposition to Christianity. Definitely not another gospel.
     
  18. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    from post # 89
     
  19. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    You need to study history.
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It was a foundational doctrine of the Reformation.

    Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
    "...nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." (Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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