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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That the tribulation is seven years, orintes with Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:24-27. In which the 70th and final week, is seven yer period. Jesus amplified it in His Olivet Discourse, in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21, as in Rev.6.

    Hope this helps.


    Quasar92
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is well documented that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in 70 AD. If they had believed that Christ was speaking of a futurized tribulation, they would have disregarded His warning to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16). Most or all would have perished.

    They understood whereof Christ spoke.
     
  3. LinkH

    LinkH Regular Member

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    Look at the passage and don't assume pretrib. Pretrib relies on interpreters assuming it is the right scenario and reading it into the text, rather than exegeting it.
    The announcement of the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs in that chapter right before it records Jesus coming to earth. What do we know about Jesus' coming to earth from II Thessalonians? From chapter 1, we see the church will be here so Jesus can give the church 'rest' when He comes back to execute judgment on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints. II Thessalonians 1 tells us that Jesus will return with His holy angels. There were non-human armies of heaven from Old Testament times after all.

    In I Thessalonians 4, we see that the dead in Christ will rise first and we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

    Between the (human) saints being with Jesus as He descends and the holy angels, that explains the armies with him.
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom.11:17 "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either"

    Take careful notice of the following: The Olive root, or tree, is God's elect or Jesus Christ. The branches of Israel broken off, is Israel, because of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. The branches grafted in are all those who believe/receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and become members of His Body, the Church. The belief that somehow, believers in Jesus Christ become m3mbers of Israel is a heresy.

    Jesus remarks in John 15 make it a little better understood:

    Jn.15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

    THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL, NOT IS ISRAEL THE CHURCH!



    Quasar92
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You keep trying to ignore the fact that the New Covenant was promised to "Israel" and "Judah" in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The exact text from Jeremiah 31 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.

    You continue to claim that Israel rejected the Messiah, even though the text of Acts chapter 2 says otherwise, because 3,000 of "all the house of Israel" did become part of the New Covenant on that day. They are part of the "remnant" of Romans 9:27.

    The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. The Gentiles were grafted into the tree containing the faithful Israelite branches. Only those branches that rejected Christ were broken off of the tree.

    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have ignored nothing, but rather, you pay no attention to the dozen times I have told you; Jesus ratified into existence, the New Covenant you are married to, when He shed His blood and died on a cross. Whom Israel rejected as their Messiah, the Scriptures reveal will not accept Him as such, until His second coming in Zech.12:10, at the ending of the tribulation.

    Meanwhile, ever since Pentecost, all those who believe/receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior become members of His Body, the [email protected] Noy Israel!

    The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the Church!


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please show me by the historic record when Jesus returned as He prophecied, in Mt.24:30-31, in 70 A.D.. you lay claim to.


    Quasasr92
     
  8. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    But this is the usual false teaching derived from a complete misinterpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks
    prophecy. So pre-tribbers end up as usual promoting a quite false doctrine concerning the church,
    christians and the last days and the coming of our Lord.

    "The tribulation is a future seven-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will not be present during the tribulation." from your web site link...
    But Jesus and the Apostles do not preach of any 7 year period of tribulation. If it were so Jesus would
    have spoken of this in his telling privately to his disciples of the signs of the end of the world and his coming. There is no reference to any 7 year period of tribulation in the NT.

    Daniel's famous 70 weeks prophecy has come and gone. It was about Jesus and his ministry, his
    death and atonement, the destruction of the Temple by a prince [Titus] and the end of sacrifices,
    and a new covenant > Pentecost.
    Daniel's prophecy has nothing to do with our times in these last days.
     
  9. Cheyann

    Cheyann New Member

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    There is no rapture. Book of Rev, is not in chronological order. We are in the sixth kingdom now the new world order is progressing, tribulation begins when Satan is kicked out of heaven with his angels at the fifth trump then he will appear at the sixth as Christ and many will believe. 2 thesis chot 2 Gid forwarns us there too.
     
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13; Lk.21 as well as Rev.6, is all future. Jesus amplified Dan.9:27, which is a seveb yer period of time. Jesus Olivet Discourse is basically the final 3.5 years of it, called, the Great Tribulation, culminating in His second coming with His Church, as recorded in Mt.24:30 and Rev.19:14.


    Quasar92
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Time does not permit me to ddress all the claims you addressed above tonight. Escept to provide you with my four post link of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke; John and Paul, in the following:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


    Qusar92
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please show me by any record how Mt. 24:16 = Mt. 24:30-31.
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Disproven by Jesus' admonitions in Matthew 24:16 and other verses in the chapter, and by Josephus' eyewitness accounts.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    God has never ever protected the Church from trials and tribulations.
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    Similarly, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the Church's being "caught up" together to Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the Church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at His Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea no rapture will occur at Jesus' Second Coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking Jesus' Second Coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the Church to hold a meeting in the sky with Him at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

    Note Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

    Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the 7th and last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then He will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding "the land of Judea" (cf. Matthew 24:16), note there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile Christians, not just Jewish Christians. The Church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the Church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to Christians around the world.

    Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

    And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is well documented that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in 70 AD. If they had believed that Christ was speaking of a futurized tribulation which would not occur for thousands of years, they would have disregarded His warning to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16). Most or all would have perished.

    Instead, the Christians understood that Christ had been speaking of events which would unfold in their generation. As the signs materialized, they heeded His warning, fled to the mountains, and survived without a single loss of life.

    This was no futurized tribulation.
     
  19. LinkH

    LinkH Regular Member

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    How can you say that? rapture means 'caught up' as in 'caught up to meet to the Lord in the air' in I Thessalonians 4. That's where the word rapture comes from, from the Latin translation of that phrase.
     
  20. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    O foolish Americans, who has bewitched you that you should depart from the truth?
    What are you all going to do when the promised rapture of "the church" [whatever that is?] does not happen?
    Pre-tribulation is contrary to the entire history of Christianity whereby Biblical faith has always been
    defended and upheld through sufferings and martyrdom.

    Many on the Forum site claim how they love Jesus, how they love the gospel, how they are willing to
    die for the gospel. Well now is your chance to put your words into action.
    For the tribulations of war and planet shaking coming upon the entire world shall be as in the days of Noah. Only those in the Ark were saved.

    "The Church" - the broad scope of what passes for Christianity these days is not the Ark.
    There will be a sifting of the chaff from the wheat...
    which is what pre-tribbers are most fearful of.
     
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