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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Hi; if you do want to reply on your profile page, look to the extreme right of the page, level to the post in question, and click where it says 'Comment'.
     
  2. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    Is this bit a joke? Can't believe that anyone with any intelligence would not realise the church has been making money at least for centuries and probably most for the last 2000 or so years. All that gold and property the church owns certainly shows they have made huge amounts of money and wealth.Living in palaces and with the honour and power akin to royalty.
     
  3. EllyGrace7

    EllyGrace7 New Member

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    I don't seem to have that... Oh well! I'm either very much blind, or the website is a little different for me... Thanks for the help, though. It's very much appreciated :)
     
  4. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    YW :)

    Meanwhile you'll be able to check out other threads, right?
     
  5. EllyGrace7

    EllyGrace7 New Member

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    Luckily, yes! I'm currently checking out that thread that you've recommended to me... about John 3:16? It's an interesting read! I hope to contribute to the thread if possible :)
     
  6. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Please do! :)
     
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Prove it! Still posting meaningless opinion rather than contributing to the subject of the thread,

    Who did Peter make the 3,000 new believers members of? The answer to that is: He made them members of the One Body of Christ, His Church...not to Israel, or to make Jews of them.

    The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the Church!


    Quasr92
     
  8. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Well, exactly Sir; Paul to the Corinthians said: 'Give non offence, neither to the Jew, nor to the Gentile, nor to the church of God'.

    There are indeed these distinct categories in Scripture which can usefully be remembered for good interpretation.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
    Rom 11:2  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 
    Rom 11:3  "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"? 
    Rom 11:4  But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 
    Rom 11:5  Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 


    You are arguing with the Apostle Paul, instead of me.

    .
     
  10. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    So where did the 10 tribes of Israel end up?
    We know from scripture that Israel (Ephraim) still exists today, as does Judah (the Jews).

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
    and with the house of Judah:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Jeremiah 31:
    This was accomplished at Pentecost and we can read of its unfolding in the book of Acts ...
    That gentiles were now included in the commonwealth of Israel and that Paul was directed to travel
    west into Macedonia gives us all a strong clue as to where the "lost" tribes of Israel had settled. Europe!
     
  11. Robert76

    Robert76 Robert

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    My understanding is that while the Bible has references to tribulations in this life, that is not the same as the great tribulation in God's judgment being poured out during the 7 years of tribulation. I've also been taught that the saints referred to in Rev 7:14 is in reference to those who accept Jesus during the 7-yr tribulation period and are martyred for their faith. Have you been taught differently?
     
  12. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    What is this obsession with a 7 year period of worldwide tribulation?
    Where does Jesus tell us of this 7 years?
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Further evidence that the tribulation of Jerusalem and Judea in the era of 70 AD was unsurpassed to that time, and "...ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

    If you dislike carnage, don't continue.

    There's a whole lot more where this comes from.

    Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews II,18:2,3

    2. However, the Syrians were even with the Jews in the multitude of the men whom they slew; for they killed those whom they caught in their cities, and that not only out of the hatred they bare them, as formerly, but to prevent the danger under which they were from them; so that the disorders in all Syria were terrible, and every city was divided into two armies, encamped one against another, and the preservation of the one party was in the destruction of the other; so the day time was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear, which was of the two the more terrible; for when the Syrians thought they had ruined the Jews, they had the Judaizers in suspicion also; and as each side did not care to slay those whom they only suspected on the other, so did they greatly fear them when they were mingled with the other, as if they were certainly foreigners. Moreover, greediness of gain was a provocation to kill the opposite party, even to such as had of old appeared very mild and gentle towards them; for they without fear plundered the effects of the slain, and carried off the spoils of those whom they slew to their own houses, as if they had been gained in a set battle; and he was esteemed a man of honor who got the greatest share, as having prevailed over the greatest number of his enemies. It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied, and those of old men, mixed with infants, all dead, and scattered about together; women also lay amongst them, without any covering for their nakedness: you might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities, while the dread of still more barbarous practices which were threatened was every where greater than what had been already perpetrated.

    3. And thus far the conflict had been between Jews and foreigners; but when they made excursions to Scythopolis, they found Jew that acted as enemies; for as they stood in battle-array with those of Scythopolis, and preferred their own safety before their relation to us, they fought against their own countrymen; nay, their alacrity was so very great, that those of Scythopolis suspected them. These were afraid, therefore, lest they should make an assault upon the city in the night time, and, to their great misfortune, should thereby make an apology for themselves to their own people for their revolt from them. So they commanded them, that in case they would confirm their agreement and demonstrate their fidelity to them, who were of a different nation, they should go out of the city, with their families to a neighboring grove; and when they had done as they were commanded, without suspecting any thing, the people of Scythopolis lay still for the interval of two days, to tempt them to be secure; but on the third night they watched their opportunity, and cut all their throats, some as they lay unguarded, and some as they lay asleep. The number that was slain was above thirteen thousand, and then they plundered them of all that they had.
     
  14. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are the ten tribes of Israel really lost?

    The disposition of the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel: From 722/712 B.C. to 445 B.C., through Jesus first advent.

    Jeroboam was the first king of the ten tribes of Israel: 1 Kgs.12:31; 1 Kgs.13:33-34. He set up the wicked/immoral sacrificing, ceremonial activity and worship of pagan gods in high places. Dismissed all the Levitical priests and assigned heathen priests of his own.

    As a result of Jeroboam's behavior, all the Levitical priests as well as a remnant of citizens from all 10 of the tribes of Israel, returned to Judah, under Rehoboam, first king of Judah and Benjamin: 2 Ch.11:13-17 and 2 Ch.15:9. That all 12 tribes of Israel were included into what was all Judah during Jesus first advent, is confirmed by His reference to "being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel," among many other places, in Mt.15:24 as well as in Mt.10:5-6. That is why they are now all called Jews. Because the tribe of Judah is where the term Jew originated. However, since all 12 of the tribes are represented, they are referred to as the original Israel. Confirmed by Paul in Rom.11:2-4, when God spared a remnant, totalling seven thousand of all ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel

    In 612 B.C. Nabopolassar united the Babylonian army with an army of Medes and Scythians and led a campaign which captured the Assyrian citadels in the North. The Babylonian army laid siege to Nineveh, but the walls of the city were too strong for battering rams, so they decided to try and starve the people out. A famous oracle had been given that "Nineveh should never be taken until the river became its enemy." After a three month siege, "rain fell in such abundance that the waters of the Tigris inundated part of the city and overturned one of its walls for a distance of twenty stades. Then the King, convinced that the oracle was accomplished and despairing of any means of escape, to avoid falling alive into the enemy's hands constructed in his palace an immense funeral pyre, placed on it his gold and silver and his royal robes, and then, shutting himself up with his wives and eunuchs in a chamber formed in the midst of the pile, disappeared in the flames. Nineveh opened its gates to the besiegers, but this tardy submission did not save the proud city. It was pillaged and burned, and then razed to the ground so completely as to evidence the implacable hatred enkindled in the minds of subject nations by the fierce and cruel Assyrian government." (Lenormant and E. Chevallier, The Rise and Fall of Assyria).

    "Nineveh was laid waste as ruthlessly and completely as her kings had once ravaged Susa and Babylon; the city was put to the torch, THE POPULATION WAS SLAUGHTERED OR ENSLAVED, and the palace so recently built by Ashurbanipal was sacked and destroyed. At one blow Assyria disappeared from history. Nothing remained of her except certain tactics and weapons of war ...The Near East remembered her for a while as a merciless unifier of a dozen lesser states; and the Jews recalled Nineveh vengefully as 'the bloody city, full of lies and robbery.' In a little while all but the mightiest of the Great Kings were forgotten, and all their royal palaces were in ruins under the drifting sands. Two hundred years after its capture, Xenophon's Ten Thousand marched over the mounds that had been Nineveh, and never suspected that these were the site of the ancient metropolis that had ruled half the world. Not a stone remained visible of all the temples with which Assyria's pious warriors had sought to beautify their greatest capital. Even Ashur, the everlasting god, was dead." (Will Durant, Our Oriental Heritage, pp. 283, 284).

    Therefore, all of the Levites, priests and citizens of all ten of the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel, under Jeroboam, who did not return to Judah/Benjamin, under Rehoboam in [about] 885 B.C., were carried off to Babylon in 612 B.C. Where they were united with the exiles from Judah/Benjamin from 605 through 586 B.C.

    From there, remnants of all twelve tribes have been represented ever since the decrees by Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes, Persian kings, from 539 B.C. through 445 B.C., to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem, all the way though Jesus first advent. Those who have returned to Israel since May 14, 1948 consist of all 12 of the tribes of Israel, as prophecied in the Scriptures, in various places.

    However, in God's great love, mercy and compassion for all His people, He will restore them again after the second coming of Christ, according to Hosea 3:4-5.

    From the above Scriptural and historic facts, a remnant of all ten of the northern tribes of Israel were saved, but many thousands of others were lost. See 1 Kgs.19:18 and Rom.11:2-4.


    Quasar02
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    [Posted in error. Please delete.
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Also, note the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding "When the role of the church is completed", are you thinking of the idea of a "Church age"?

    If so, note there's no such thing as the Church age, for the Church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the Church will continue in the world throughout the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) and then throughout the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the Church will then continue forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

    Regarding "taken as a completed body to heaven", do you mean the rapture will take Christians into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)?

    If so, note no scripture requires Christians will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the Church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the Church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the Church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the Church will live on a New Earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding your reference to Matthew 24:9-26, note Jesus Christ spoke specifically of His "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before He spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future Tribulation, by which time the Church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the Tribulation will be the Church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and there are no believers in Jesus Christ outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the Church who will be in the Tribulation could include most of the Christians alive today, whether Jews or Gentiles, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

    Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to Christians (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to Christians (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view admits, for example, that John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to the Church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to the Church today.

    Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Biblical Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for Him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that He's letting them and their little ones suffer in the Tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).
     
  19. Robert76

    Robert76 Robert

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  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Reference to Paul's remarks in Rom.11, your attempt in the loud screaming you do , will NEVER make the Church, Israel! Paul was an Israelite, and more importantly an apostle for the Lord Jesus Christ, and member of His Body, the Church. He preached the gospel to the Gentiles, bringing thousands into the Church of Jesus Christ, not into Israel. In Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians Philippians and Thessalonians, for starters Bringing them all into the one body of Christ, His Church...NOT into Israel!

    Reference to God saving a remnant of 7,000, who did not worship Baal, pertains to events that took place during the reign o the first king of the northern ten tribes of Israel, during the days Elijah was an active prophet, in 2 Chr., and has nothing whatever to do with the thread subject, centuries before the Lord Jesus Christ was born!

    The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the church!


    Quasar92
     
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