Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

[Quasar92]

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,
Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5
Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha! W

By Thomas Ice


Quasar92

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well of course the OT doesn't mention the church in the tribulation, guess why?

Because the church wasn't a thing then. That is why.

Paul says in 1 & 2 Thessalonians that "we" would not be gathered to Jesus until the AntiChrist is revealed that automatically eliminates any pretrib idealogy.

Jesus said in John that there are only 2 resurrections. One to life and one to death. Not multiple to life...

 

[BABerean2]

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church

The Capitol "C" Church as we use the term today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation or several other New Testament books.

Seven individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.

The New Covenant Church of Christ is found in the verse below.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ, found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.


Rev_1:9　 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Providence Theological Seminary

(located between Philadelphia and Dallas)

.

 

[Yahchristian]

Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age.

Only Pretribulationists think that the Comforter will NOT abide with some who accept Jesus in the future.

In contrast...

The Bible says the Comforter will abide with ALL believers for EVER!

John 14:16... And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


P.S.

Who do Pretribulationists think "both" and "one body" refer to in this verse?

Ephesians 2:16... And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

I would say "both" refers to Jewish believers and Gentile believers, and "one body" refers to Jesus' church.

 

[jgr]

This is the same Thomas Ice who concedes that the early church believed that it would experience tribulation, and was thus not pretribulational. From his commentary on Irenaeus, a prominent early apologist:

"Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism."

 

[Soyeong]

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual. These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes,
Never are tribulation saints given the special and perculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint.5
Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha! W

By Thomas Ice


Quasar92

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and it is used in the Septuagint to refer to the church of Israel in the wilderness, so Israel is the Church.

 

[keras]

Israel as God’s righteous nation:

Romans 11:25-26…when all the Gentile believers are come in..…the Deliverer will come and so all Israel shall be saved.
But remember Romans 9:6-8…not all of ethnic Israel are truly the Israel of God…it is the children born from the Promise, [Jesus: His Christian believers.] who are reckoned as Abrahams descendants.
Galatians 4:28 Now you, my friends, like Isaac; are children of God’s Promise.

We know that the ‘all of Israel’ must include those Christian believers who are grafted in, Romans 11:17, who are the true circumcision, the ‘real Jews’; Romans 2:29 People from every race; nation and language, including Jews, all bought by the blood of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

We know that God did choose ethnic Israel to be His people and Jesus came to continue God’s Promises to the Patriarchs, Romans 15:8 He came to save the lost sheep of Israel.
But they rejected and killed Him, as the parable of the vineyard relates. Now the Gentiles glorify God for His mercy, Romans 15:9-13

The ethnic Israelites have lost their vantage ground because of this rejection and todays Jewish people, in the main, continue in this sin and they stand level with the rest of fallen humanity. The Cross has broken down the wall of separation between Israel and all other peoples, it has levelled all distinctions. Ephesians 2:14-18
How can it be when there is now; no special people, that in the last days, God could forgive the Jews their centuries of disbelief and now in the State of Israel, their prideful atheism, false religions and LGBT sins?

Simply put: If God was to fulfil the promises He made to ancient Israel, to the current Jewish State of Israel, it would be entirely inconsistent with the truths of the New Testament and a denial of Jesus’ Words in John 3:16.

 

[Quasar92]

Well of course the OT doesn't mention the church in the tribulation, guess why?

Because the church wasn't a thing then. That is why.

Paul says in 1 & 2 Thessalonians that "we" would not be gathered to Jesus until the AntiChrist is revealed that automatically eliminates any pretrib idealogy.

Jesus said in John that there are only 2 resurrections. One to life and one to death. Not multiple to life...

Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church, which is not taught in the OT at all, Review the following.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church, which is not taught in the OT at all, Review the following.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

No.

Left Behind or Led Astray

The History of the False Pretrib Rapture Doctrine

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[Quasar92]

No.

Left Behind or Led Astray

The History of the False Pretrib Rapture Doctrine

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

Here again is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul's teachings on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, you continue to call liars!

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/...he-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church#.WUSsPumQwa4

Either provide a valid Scriptural rebutal to their teachings, or your views are the those that are false.


Quasar92

 

[Yahchristian]

Either provide a valid Scriptural rebutal to their teachings, or your views are the those that are false.

Quasar92

One Scriptural rebuttal to your Pre-trib view is...

Daniel 9:25 ESV... Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

The 7 weeks plus 62 weeks equals 69 weeks, which prophetically represents 483 years (69 * 7).

But according to your Pre-trib view...

If Daniel's first 69 weeks started sometime in 444 BC (as you claim) and ended when Jesus was crucified in the Spring of 30 AD (as you claim), that was a period of 472 1/2 - 473 1/2 years and NOT 483 (69 * 7) or 476 (69 * 7 * 360 / 365.25).

If you need help with the Math, here is Casio's Online Calculator for calculating time between two dates.

 

[jgr]

Here again is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul's teachings on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, you continue to call liars!

How is this not a flagrant violation of site policy?

These accusations have been leveled incessantly for weeks, and I've reached my flashpoint. It would be charitable to characterize such rhetoric as slanderous or defamatory. Odious, execrable, and detestable are other more applicable descriptions.

To accuse those who have legitimate scriptural disagreements with one's own views as calling Christ and His servants liars is the epitome of despicability.

A different thread today was discontinued because a poster was allegedly attacking the Roman Catholic church. What is seen in the foregoing is no less deserving of censure.

I'm hereby formally requesting that appropriate site disciplinary action be taken.

 

[Quasar92]

One Scriptural rebuttal to your Pre-trib view is...

Daniel 9:25 ESV... Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

The 7 weeks plus 62 weeks equals 69 weeks, which prophetically represents 483 years (69 * 7).

But according to your Pre-trib view...

If Daniel's first 69 weeks started sometime in 444 BC (as you claim) and ended when Jesus was crucified in the Spring of 30 AD (as you claim), that was a period of 472 1/2 - 473 1/2 years and NOT 483 (69 * 7) or 476 (69 * 7 * 360 / 365.25).

If you need help with the Math, here is Casio's Online Calculator for calculating time between two dates.

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, was to his people, Israel. It has nothing whatever to do with the Church nor the rapture of the Church. As for your math pertaining to the date of Artaxerxes decree in his 20th year of reign, in Meh.2:1-8, could have been 444/445/446 B.C. from the inaccuracies of the ancient Persian historic records. Which also applies to the ancient Babylonian historic records.

This is an example of the confusion that comes from those who try making the Church out to be Israel. Where did you find anything I posted on the math of the above prophecy?

The four post link for the rapture of the Church teachings follows:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, was to his people, Israel. It has nothing whatever to do with the Church

Dan 9:24　 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.　



Act 10:38　 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.　



Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.　

.

 

[Quasar92]

Well of course the OT doesn't mention the church in the tribulation, guess why?

Because the church wasn't a thing then. That is why.

Paul says in 1 & 2 Thessalonians that "we" would not be gathered to Jesus until the AntiChrist is revealed that automatically eliminates any pretrib idealogy.

Jesus said in John that there are only 2 resurrections. One to life and one to death. Not multiple to life...

Of course the Church did not exist in the OT, because Jesus was/is the Founder and Head of it. In addition to that, the Church consists of everyone who belies/received Jesus as His/her Lord and Savior, nd belong to His body, which is His Church. Which has nothing whatever to do with Israel

Show me the Scriptures that reveal where the Antichrist will appear before we are gathered to the Lord, in 1st and 2nd Thess. .You have that exactly backwards, in addition to the fact that he is not mentioned at all in 1st Thess,


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

Dan 9:24　 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.　



Act 10:38　 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.　



Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　
Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.　

.

The Church that Jesus is the Founder and Head of, is not Israel, no matter how long and hard you press the false argument. Daniel's people, is Israel. The Church did not exist then until Jesus did. The facts pertaining to this issue are in my post #13.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The Church that Jesus is the Founder and Head of, is not Israel,

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
　



Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　(NKJV)
(Who was Peter talking to on the Day of Pentecost?)




Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.
Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)




Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
(NKJV)


All false doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.

 

[Quasar92]

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
　



Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　(NKJV)
(Who was Peter talking to on the Day of Pentecost?)




Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.
Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)




Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
(NKJV)


All false doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.

BABerean2 wrote: "Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,"

What Paul is referring to here, are the twins, Esau and Jacob. Jacob is Israel while Esau was the progenitor of Edom. It DOES NOT divide and make Israel into two entities as you keep trying to do. Israel is one nation of non-believers, who have not yet accepted Jesus as their Messiah - nor the New Covenant! Which WILL NOT be ulfilled until Jesus second coming, recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the Church!


Quasar92


　

 

[Yahchristian]

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, was to his people, Israel. It has nothing whatever to do with the Church nor the rapture of the Church.

Most Pretribulationists say there are two New Covenants (or two applications of the New Covenant), one for the Church and one for Israel (even though that is not what the Bible says). But at least they admit the New Covenant does apply to the Church. But you say "it has nothing whatever to do with the Church".

The truth is, a professing Christian is NOT a Christian unless the New Covenant applies to them...

Jeremiah 31:31-33... Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Daniel 9:24... Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hebrews 10:16-20... This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

As for your math pertaining to the date of Artaxerxes decree in his 20th year of reign, in Meh.2:1-8, could have been 444/445/446 B.C. from the inaccuracies of the ancient Persian historic records. Which also applies to the ancient Babylonian historic records.

Sir Robert Anderson, a famous Pretribulationist quoted by just about every other Pretribulationist, makes a big deal of the dates of Daniel's seventy weeks working out to the exact day.

Are you saying he cannot be correct because of "the inaccuracies of the ancient Persian historic records. Which also applies to the ancient Babylonian historic records"?

 

[Quasar92]

Most Pretribulationists say there are two New Covenants (or two applications of the New Covenant), one for the Church and one for Israel (even though that is not what the Bible says). But at least they admit the New Covenant does apply to the Church. But you say "it has nothing whatever to do with the Church".

The truth is, a professing Christian is NOT a Christian unless the New Covenant applies to them...

Jeremiah 31:31-33... Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Daniel 9:24... Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hebrews 10:16-20... This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;





Sir Robert Anderson, a famous Pretribulationist quoted by just about every other Pretribulationist, makes a big deal of the dates of Daniel's seventy weeks working out to the exact day.

Are you saying he cannot be correct because of "the inaccuracies of the ancient Persian historic records. Which also applies to the ancient Babylonian historic records"?

To correct the record: Do not make false statements of what you think I said. But rather, quote me as is the proper procedure, if you intend to critique any of my views.

Of course the Church has fully accepted God's free gift of grace, He provided us with the New Covenant, Jesus brought into existence through Hi8s shed blood and death on a cross. Israel HAS NOT accepted it yet, because they do not believe Jesus is their Messiah, and won't until Jesus second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:2 and 14:4-5

The Church IS NOT Israel, nor is Israel the Church. There is nothing whatever in Dan.9:24-27 that pertains to the Church, As Gabriel told Daniel, it was for HIS PEOPLE, Israel, not the Church.


Quasar92.