Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation Excludes the Church

[Quasar92]

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."
-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual.

These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World

Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

4) Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Unlike Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshiping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21).

Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes, "Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint."

5) Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.


Quasar92

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

IMHO Lord Jesus already suffered the wrath of God on the cross.If His body (the Church) was subject to it again, that would have Lord Jesus suffering God's wrath a second time. Thank you for sharing this explanation. It makes very good sense.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree with Corrie ten Boom, and the millions of Christians worldwide already killed or suffering tribulation today (and already 40 years ago, and longer ago, as Corrie noted) See her testimony online if desired. It is very enlightening and in line with all Scripture and Life .

 

[com7fy8]

But while our Father is executing His wrath judgments on enemies, He has self control so we His children are not effected by His wrath judgments. So, He is able to do all which Revelation says, without it hurting us.

Also . . . if you say only Jews will be in the trib. and not Christians . . . in case this is what you mean > what about Revelation 7:9-16? These who come out of the tribulation appear to not be Jews.

We former Gentiles have been joined together with the Israelites who have trusted in Jesus. So, we are connected with Jews who already have obeyed our Messiah.

 

[BABerean2]

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."
-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual.

These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World

Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

4) Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Unlike Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshiping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21).

Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes, "Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint."

5) Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.


Quasar92

What a "story".
It sounds like something that came right out of the "Left Behind" books and movies or maybe the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.


Now let us do a reality check.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13. The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, God is not going to go back to the Old Sinai covenant, during a future time period of 7 years.

We find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found at all in the Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

Jeremiah wrote about the "time of Jacob's trouble" when Israel was going to captivity in Babylon. It cannot be honestly ripped out of its ancient context and thrown into the future.

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.
This is a mathematical fact.


The greatest error of the "story" above is the idea that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)


Rev_1:9　 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[jgr]

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."
-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual.

These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World

Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

4) Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Unlike Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshiping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21).

Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes, "Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint."

5) Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.


Quasar92

Here we go again.

If Ice is correct, we should see full support of, and agreement with, the pretrib doctrine over 1800 years of post-apostolic New Testament Church history, by the saints of old.

We see nothing. Ice makes not a single reference to anyone in the Church over this period.

Might that be because he is channelling the doctrine's 19th century inventor, John Nelson Darby, who remarked “I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.”?

More dispensational cultic modernism.

 

[Waterwerx]

What a "story".
It sounds like something that came right out of the "Left Behind" books and movies or maybe the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

The above sounds like something that came right out of the opening sentence of your other posts as it appears to be the same here.

The Lord had taught the church to expect his return at any moment, and the church looked for him to come in their day and taught his personal return as being imminent. The exception to this was the Alexandrian
Fathers, who also rejected other fundamental doctrines.. We may assume that the early church lived in the constant expectation of their Lord, and hence was not concerned with the possibility of a tribulation period in the future. This may be the reason for the silence concerning the tribulation in the Fathers.
Further, it is not strange that the leaders in the Middle Ages are silent concerning the pretribulational rapture. With the rise of Constantine and the state church, the church turned to an allegorizing of the Scriptures concerning the Lord’s return. And with the denial of a literal millennium, the tribulation was allegorized or ignored.
The Reformers returned to the doctrine of the second coming, but their emphasis was on the doctrine of salvation rather than the development of the
details of eschatology. Consequently, there was little, if any, development of this doctrine throughout the history of the Christian church.
However, Christian doctrine is established on the basis of Scripture, and not on the basis of the development of doctrine, or the lack of it, in past generations.
The Bible must be our sole authority in matters of doctrine, and it is to it that we must turn to establish biblical truth.

II. SCRIPTURAL TEACHING
Various arguments from Scripture can be presented which substantiate this doctrine of the Lord’s pretribulational return for his church.

A. THE NATURE OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK OF DANIEL
The seventieth week of Daniel is mentioned in Dan. 9:27. We have already pointed out that after the sixty-ninth week, the Messiah was to be cut off. These “weeks” began with the return and work of Nehemiah (Neh. 2:4-6; Dan. 9: Xf .), and however we may reckon the time, we must perceive that the earthly life of Jesus was spent during the last four or five of the sixtynine
weeks. The church was not as yet in existence, but Jesus declared that he would build it (Matt. 16:X3). Since the church was formed by the baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1:4f. ; 11: 16f. ; 1 Cor. 12: 13), we date the beginning of the church from Pentecost.
It was, therefore, no part of the sixty-nine weeks.
Nor will it be a part of the seventieth week. Daniel was told that the entire seventy weeks were decreed upon his people and his holy city (Dan. 9:24), and not
merely sixty-nine. If that week is still future, and is in fact the future tribulation period, then there is no more likelihood that the church will be here during the last week, than there is evidence that it was in existence
during the last part of the sixty-nine weeks. In other words, the church fills the parenthesis between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks, and is no
part of either period. This position argues against both the posttribulational and the midtribulational positions. These two positions have of necessity a certain overlap between Israel and the church in the last week.

B. THE NATURE AND PURPOSE OF THE TRIBULATION
It is often said that since the church has not been exempted from persecutions throughout church history, there is no ground for supposing that it will escape the persecutions of the tribulation to come. But this is to misunderstand altogether the nature and purpose of the tribulation.
“The hour of testing” is “to test those who dwell upon the earth’ (Rev. 3: 10). The phrase, “those who dwell upon the earth,” is used over a dozen times in Revelation
and has reference to the earth-dwellers. Mounce writes that when this
“phrase occurs . . . the enemies of the church are always in mind.“ These are the people who have identified themselves with this world, the unsaved.

This period is also “the time of Jacob’s distress” (Jer. 30:7). In Isa. 26:20f. the Lord speaks of this same period and discloses its true nature, “Come, my
people, enter into your rooms, and close your doors behind you; hide for a little while, until indignation runs its course. For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; and the earth shall reveal her bloodshed, and will no longer cover her slain.”
That is, the tribulation is the period in which God will go forth to punish a God-rejecting and Christ-rejecting world. The persecutions during that period are only incidentals.
Futurist interpreters of the Revelation generally hold that Rev. 6-19 deals with the tribulation period. The main features of those chapters are the seals, trumpets, and bowls, but each of these is a judgment that emanates from heaven. It is God’s visitation of wrath upon
this sin-cursed world.
When God got ready to punish Sodom and Gomorrah, he first took Lot and his family out of the city. Abraham had induced God to promise to save the city if he found ten righteous in it; he did not seem to think it necessary
to argue that God should take Lot out of the city in case he did not find ten. But God would not “sweep away the righteous with the wicked” (Gen. 18:23), and so he took Lot out before he rained brimstone and fire on the cities of the plain (Gen. 19: 12-25).
Peter uses this incident to prove that “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation [lit. ‘trial’; same term as in Rev. 3: lo], and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Pet. 2:9). So with the case of Noah: when God got ready to
destroy the world with a flood, he delivered Noah and his family from it.

C. THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH
Without going into a lengthy study of this aspect of biblical revelation, we do observe that the church and Israel are two distinct entities. This can be seen in several ways.
(1) In the past God dealt primarily with Israel; now he is
dealing with the church. In the future he will again deal with Israel. Rom. 11 teaches that Israel as a nation has been cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. In the future Israel will again be grafted in (cf. Acts 15:16-18; Rom. 15:8-12).
(2) Israel is a nation; the church is a body of individuals
called out from the nations.
(3) Daniel’s seventy weeks deal with Israel (Dan. 9:24); the church fits into the time between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth week.
(4) Christ is to return to Israel to establish the kingdom; his return for the church is to take the church to be with him. And
(5) the great Old Testament covenants were made with Abraham and his seed, Israel (Gen. 12:1-3; 2 Sam. 7:11-16; Jer. 31:31-34); the church shares in the
spiritual benefits of these covenants, but not yet the physical (Rom. 4:ll; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 10:16f.).
The literal physical fulfillment of these covenants is yet future and will take place in the kingdom age. These
and other distinctions made between the church and Israel demonstrate that God has a different program for each. God’s program on earth for the church
will come to an end when we are caught up to be with him in the air. This will signal the beginning of God’s renewed dealings with Israel, just as Israel’s rejection in New Testament times signaled the beginning of a new
people of God called the church, the body of Christ.

E. THE NECESSITY FOR AN INTERVAL BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE REVELATION
Posttribulationalists generally hold that the saved will be caught up to meet Christ as he descends from heaven, but that they will immediately return to earth with him. They deny that there will be an interval between the two
events.’ But a careful study of the Scriptures discloses that there will be an interval between Christ’s coming into the air and his coming down to the earth.
It reveals that there are two things at least that must take place between these two events: the judgment of the believers and the marriage supper of the Lamb. Paul writes, “For we must all appear before the judgment
seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5: 10; cf. John 5:22 ; Rom. 14: 10). The believer will be judged to ascertain whether he is eligible for a reward or not, and if so, how large that reward is to be (1 Cor. 3: 12-15).
It is clear that the Lord will call his servants to himself for a private judgment of their works (Luke 19:15; 2 Cor. 5:lO). This is made necessary also by the fact that when they come back with him, they immediately enter
upon their part of the rule over the earthly kingdom (Rev. 2:26; 19:14, 19; 20:4). This much seems to be clear.
In addition to the judgment seat of Christ, there is also the marriage supper of the Lamb. In Rev. lY:l-10 the
scene is set in heaven; in v. 11 heaven is opened and Christ with his saints is seen coming down to earth. The marriage supper is brought before us in vss. 7-9, and is therefore in heaven. When the Lord Jesus returns to the
earth with his bride, there will, no doubt, be certain celebrations on earth as well with redeemed of all ages. These two events, the judgment of Christ and the marriage supper of the Lamb, must take place before the
coming of Christ to establish his kingdom. Obviously, these events would not necessarily demand the full seven years, but they do require a measure of
time.
In addition to the events in heaven, there are also developments on earth in preparation for the kingdom. God will be preparing a company of redeemed to enter into the millennial kingdom. This will include believing Jew and Gentile alike. At the return of Christ, believers will enter the kingdom, and unbelievers will be taken away in judgment (Matt. 13:37-43, 47-50; 24:4Of. ; 25: l-12).
Just as our Lord worked for over three years with those
who were to form the nucleus of the coming church, so it seems proper that those saved during the tribulation period will be those with whom the Lord will establish his kingdom when he returns. This gathering of the remnant of Israel and the saved from among the Gentiles will take a measure of time.
With the return of Christ in glory, there will be a major turning to the Lord (Zech. 12: lo-14), just as on the day of Pentecost with the coming of the Spirit and the preaching of Peter (Acts 2: 1441; cf. Joel 2:28-32 ; Rom. 11:25-27).

Thiessen, Henry Clarence. Lectures in Systematic Theology. William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1949. P. 372-376.

More dispensational cultic modernism.

And the above work was originally published before Thomas Ice's time. I guess that would place it somewhere on your "cultic" timescale as "pre-modernism". Being we're now considered a cult, what would that make you? A non-dispensational cultic modernist?
Oh and look, on the bottom of page 375 of Thiessen's work, he even references,
"For an excellent study of posttribulationalism, see The Church and the Tribulation by Robert Gundry, a leading posttribulationalist."
http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/PDF Books/00045 Thiessen Lectures in Systematic Theology.pdf

I fail to see how either view(pre,mid,post) falls into the "cultic" category, but I would expect such reasoning from armchair commentators.

 

[BABerean2]

THE NATURE OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK OF DANIEL
The seventieth week of Daniel is mentioned in Dan. 9:27. We have already pointed out that after the sixty-ninth week, the Messiah was to be cut off. These “weeks” began with the return and work of Nehemiah (Neh. 2:4-6; Dan. 9: Xf .), and however we may reckon the time, we must perceive that the earthly life of Jesus was spent during the last four or five of the sixtynine
weeks. The church was not as yet in existence, but Jesus declared that he would build it (Matt. 16:X3). Since the church was formed by the baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1:4f. ; 11: 16f. ; 1 Cor. 12: 13), we date the beginning of the church from Pentecost.
It was, therefore, no part of the sixty-nine weeks.
Nor will it be a part of the seventieth week. Daniel was told that the entire seventy weeks were decreed upon his people and his holy city (Dan. 9:24), and not
merely sixty-nine. If that week is still future, and is in fact the future tribulation period, then there is no more likelihood that the church will be here during the last week, than there is evidence that it was in existence
during the last part of the sixty-nine weeks. In other words, the church fills the parenthesis between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks, and is no
part of either period. This position argues against both the posttribulational and the midtribulational positions. These two positions have of necessity a certain overlap between Israel and the church in the last week.

Your interpretation denies the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 by Christ, which is found below.

Dan 9:24　 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.　



Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　
(This is a reference to the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.)

Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　

Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.　




Act 10:38　 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.　

................................................................................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[keras]

I agree with Corrie ten Boom, and the millions of Christians worldwide already killed or suffering tribulation today (and already 40 years ago, and longer ago, as Corrie noted) See her testimony online if desired. It is very enlightening and in line with all Scripture and Life .

Note that Corrie utterly refuted any notion of a rapture to heaven for the church. She saw the truth; that everyone must be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:9 There is no reason for the escape of those who just happen to be alive as the events of the end of this age unfold.
The false teaching of a rapture removal to heaven, just leaves people clueless about what God actually does plan for His people.

 

[Waterwerx]

Your interpretation denies the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 by Christ, which is found below.

And your response indicates a reading comprehension problem. That was exactly my point, and had you bothered to read the post to it's entirety, its not just "my interpretation". Your issue is the inability to distinguish who/what is being addressed in Daniel 9:24, which is symptomatic of someone that just picks up a Bible and plugs their own ideas in. The "who" and "what" are just as important as the subject in a given Scripture.

 

[Quasar92]

But while our Father is executing His wrath judgments on enemies, He has self control so we His children are not effected by His wrath judgments. So, He is able to do all which Revelation says, without it hurting us.

Also . . . if you say only Jews will be in the trib. and not Christians . . . in case this is what you mean > what about Revelation 7:9-16? These who come out of the tribulation appear to not be Jews.

We former Gentiles have been joined together with the Israelites who have trusted in Jesus. So, we are connected with Jews who already have obeyed our Messiah.

The Church does not go through the tribulation. The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17, is the same group as the tribulation martyrs/saints, of Rev.20:4 and 6. The 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth, as He will the two witnesses of Rev.11:3, will bring them to the Lord during the Great Trib., which they will pay for with their lives. They do not belong to the raptured Church, and come from those who were left behind, when the Church departed in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

A. THE NATURE OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK OF DANIEL
In other words, the church fills the parenthesis between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks, and is no
part of either period.

The church is not parenthetical. We are the end-product of the primary mission of the single most important person who ever lived. Moreover, Daniel's prophecy is as much about counting down the years as it is a description of what's going to happen at the end of those years. By claiming that history somehow got stuck between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth, what you're really claiming is that Daniel is a false prophet. Say that if you like, but you can't prop up a position with a pillar that you've already torn down.

Your interpretation denies the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 by Christ, which is found below.

Dan 9:24　 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.　

I'm always sorry to see how the atonement for sins got mis-translated into a covenant of the Antichrist with the modern nation of Israel. Ascribing the work of God to the devil is a blasphemy, even if an unintentional one. You can't possibly push your point too far. More people need to hear it.

And your response indicates a reading comprehension problem. That was exactly my point, and had you bothered to read the post to it's entirety, its not just "my interpretation". Your issue is the inability to distinguish who/what is being addressed in Daniel 9:24, which is symptomatic of ....

The "my interpretation" should not be taken to mean you, exclusively. We all know that it is not just your understanding of the scripture. The entire prophecy mentioned, there, was a countdown to the atoning of sins. Christ's death on the cross actually happened at the time predicted by this prophecy, which is the very end of the counted number of weeks. Daniel predicted the very year that the final atonement for our sins would happen. This is phenomenal, and it should be about the single greatest prophecy in the Bible, if only it were not made into something that it is not.

 

[Soyeong]

"And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today."
-Deuteronomy 30:7-8

God's purpose for the tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) revolves around His plan for Israel and does not include a earthly presence for the church. Why? Because God's plan for Israel is unfinished at this point in history. When the role of the church is completed she will be taken as a completed body to heaven in an instant-at the rapture. This will clear the way for a restoration and resumption of progress toward the completion of our Sovereign Lord's plans for His elect nation-Israel.

The Tribulation Focuses on Israel

The Bible teaches that the tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10).1 While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 15:18-25; 16:33; 2 Tim. 3:10-13), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Gerald Stanton explains:

The Tribulation does not deal with the Church at all, but with the purification of Israel. It is not the "time of the Church's trouble," but the "time of Jacob's trouble." The emphasis of the Tribulation is primarily Jewish. This fact is borne out by Old Testament Scriptures (Deut. 4: 30; Jer. 30: 7; Ezek. 20: 37; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8-9), by the Olivet Discourse of Christ (Matt. 24:9-26), and by the book of Revelation itself (Rev. 7:4-8; 12:1-2; 17, etc.). It concerns "Daniel's people," the coming of "false Messiah," the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," flight on the "sabbath," the temple and the "holy place," the land of Judea, the city of Jerusalem, the twelve "tribes of the children of Israel," the "son of Moses," "signs" in the heavens, the "covenant" with the Beast, the "sanctuary," the "sacrifice and
the oblation" of the temple ritual.

These all speak of Israel and clearly demonstrate that the Tribulation is largely a time when God deals with His ancient people prior to their entrance into the promised kingdom. The many Old Testament prophecies yet to be fulfilled for Israel further indicate a future time when God will deal with this nation (Deut. 30:1-6; Jer. 30:8-10, etc.).2

The Church is Absent from the Tribulation

Not one Old Testament passage on the tribulation refers to the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2), nor does the New Testament ever speak of the church in relation to the tribulation (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18), except as present in heaven. Such silence speaks loudly and supports the pre-trib position, especially when combined with clear, explicit statements that promise her exemption from that time (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10). Note the clear promise to the church of Revelation 3:10:

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.

If pretribulationism is indeed the teaching of Scripture, then we would expect that passages dealing with the tribulation would consistently make no mention of the church. This is exactly what we find. However, Israel is mentioned often throughout these texts. Dr. Robert Gromacki has studied the New Testament book of Revelation, chapters 4-19, which gives the most detailed overview of the seven-year tribulation in all the Bible. He has shown the following:

However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the Second Coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.3

Tribulation on a Christ-Rejecting World

Another purpose for the tribulation is that it is a time of God's wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world and a time of revenge for Gentile treatment of Israel.

Moreover, it is evident that the Tribulation also concerns God's judgment upon Christ-rejecting Gentile nations. Babylon, which "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8), shall herself "be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18:8). The "cities of the nations" shall fall, after which Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20:3). God's judgment falls likewise upon the individual wicked, the kings of the earth, the great, the rich, and the mighty, every bond man and every free man (Rev. 6:15-17). It falls upon all who blaspheme the name of God and repent not to give Him glory (Rev. 16:9). Wicked men, godless nations, suffering Israel--these may all be found in Revelation 6-18; but one looks in vain for the Church of Christ, which is His body, until he reaches the nineteenth chapter. There she is seen as the heavenly bride of Christ, and when He returns to earth to make His enemies His footstool, she is seen returning with Him (I Thess. 3: 13).

Such a time of judgment does not require the church, who has not rejected Christ, to be present. With the church in heaven during the tribulation, it enables God's focus to be on Israel as His Divine instrument through which He acts. This program was predicted by the Lord before Joshua and Israel ever entered the Promised Land. Notice the predicted pattern:

1) then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. (Deut. 30:3)

2) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it . . . (Deut. 30:5a)

3) And the LORD your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today. (Deut. 30:7-8)

4) Zechariah speaks of the Lord's retribution upon the nations as a time when "the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:8-9) Once again the focus is upon Israel, in this case Jerusalem, not the church.

The book of Revelation provides a graphic depiction of God's judgment upon an unbelieving world, often called "earth dwellers." As God prosecutes His judgment upon the "earth dwellers," John records periodic pauses by our Lord as He evaluates the response of mankind to His judgment before going onto the next phase. It is as if the Lord inflicts a series of judgments and then surveys the landscape to see if, like Ninevah in the days of Jonah, there is repentance so that He can suspend prosecution of the war. Unlike Ninevah in the days of Jonah, the "earth dwellers" do not relent in the wake of "the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), so our Lord proceeds to the next phase of His battle. Every step of the way, the "earth dwellers" would "not repent of the works of their hands" (Rev. 9:20) Instead of worshiping Christ, "the earth and those who dwell in it . . . worship the first beast" (Rev. 13:12). Instead of repentance they "blasphemed God" (Rev. 16:21).

Finally, "all the nations were deceived" (Rev. 18:23) resulting in the satanic notion that the armies of the world must march against Jerusalem-God's city-and Israel-His people. This results in the basis for the second coming of Christ, which is to rescue Israel from the world's armies who are striking out at God by invading His people. Such a scenario does not demand or require the church and so she will not be there. We can see that the purpose of the tribulation revolves around God's plan for Israel, not the church.

Conclusion

Only pretribulationism is able to give full import to tribulation terms like "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), as a passage specifically stating that the tribulation is for Jacob (i.e., Israel). John Walvoord concludes, "Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint."

5) Since God's purpose for the tribulation is to restore Israel (Jer. 30:3, 10) and judge the Gentiles (Jer. 30:11), it is clear that this purpose does not include the church. This is one of the reasons why she will be taken to heaven before this time. The church's hope is a heavenly one, not participation in the culmination and restoration of God's plan for His earthly people-Israel. Maranatha!

By Thomas Ice, PhD.


Quasar92

Genesis 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”

If we learn nothing from else from Genesis 18:22-33, it is that God does not treat the righteous and the wicked alike. Secondly, Revelation was addressed to the seven churches and written to be a blessing to them (Revelation 1:3), and telling them that they would have to go through everything in Revelation would not have made them happy, joyful, and content. Thirdly, John referred to himself a their companion in tribulation (Revelation 1:9), so he thought what he was going through was tribulation.

 

[jgr]

We may assume that the early church lived in the constant expectation of their Lord, and hence was not concerned with the possibility of a tribulation period in the future. This may be the reason for the silence concerning the tribulation in the Fathers.

They were concerned, and were not silent. Rather, they averred that the true Church would experience the tribulation.

Irenaeus was arguably the foremost apologist of his era. He lived from 130 to 202 AD, well before the apostacy of the papacy had begun to afflict the Church.

To Dr. Thomas Ice's credit, he does experience some moments of objectivity. He comments regarding Irenaeus:

"Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism."

In his comments regarding J. N. Darby:

"From the time of his convalescence, Darby developed a theology that taught and supported a dispensational, premillennial, pretribulationism."

"It would take at least another decade for Darby to develop full confidence in his new views and their implications."

"Darby possessed the intellect, education, and capability needed for original thinking, and the discipline to develop ideas into a system."

"...the development of Darby's own theology, in spite of how he remembers it, was from 1827 to even as late as 1843 in a largely formative stage."

"As his thought developed during the 1830s, this principle of interpretation became the lynchpin of his system."

"On the other hand, Darby most likely thought of and then developed the idea of pretribulationism in the process of shifting to futurism."

These identify Darby as the father of pretribulationism, an unprecedented new doctrine, which commonly characterizes the claims of a cult, i.e. "new truth." And I would characterize 1827 to even as late as 1843 and the 1830s as modernism.
Wouldn't you?

The Reformers returned to the doctrine of the second coming, but their emphasis was on the doctrine of salvation rather than the development of the
details of eschatology. Consequently, there was little, if any, development of this doctrine throughout the history of the Christian church.

To the contrary, eschatology was salient doctrine of the Reformers, for they declared in virtual unison that (1) The just shall live by faith; and (2) the papacy is antichrist. The latter arose from their accurate recognition of the descriptions of antichrist and the man of sin, based upon the prophecies in Daniel 7, 2 Thes. 2, John's epistles, and Revelation 13. These truths they declared, frequently to the the death. Estimates place the death toll of those who would not submit to Rome at 50 million over the centuries of the papacy. We are literally able to carry on our debates here today because of their faith and sacrifice. They must never go unhonored.

I fail to see how either view(pre,mid,post) falls into the "cultic" category, but I would expect such reasoning from armchair commentators.

My chair does not have an armrest. It's a tribulation chair.

 

[Quasar92]

What a "story".
It sounds like something that came right out of the "Left Behind" books and movies or maybe the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.


Now let us do a reality check.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13. The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, God is not going to go back to the Old Sinai covenant, during a future time period of 7 years.

We find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found at all in the Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

Jeremiah wrote about the "time of Jacob's trouble" when Israel was going to captivity in Babylon. It cannot be honestly ripped out of its ancient context and thrown into the future.

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.
This is a mathematical fact.


The greatest error of the "story" above is the idea that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)


Rev_1:9　 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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FYI, Jer.30:7 pertaining to Jacob's Trouble, is the very same as Dan.9:27. It is the seven year tribulation, yet to take place.

The tribulation John was going through, was that of the Romans imposing it on all Christians and Jews of that era. He wa not making any such remark that he would be suffering tribulation in the seven year Trib yet to come.

The Jews will come to their salvation when they recognize and accept Jesus as their Messiah according Zech.12:10 when Jesus returnin His secnd coming, as recorded in Zech.14:4-5, WITH HIS CHURCH.



Quasar92

 

[Another Lazarus]

What a "story".
It sounds like something that came right out of the "Left Behind".

Yes he is right, foolish virgins shall be leftbehind

 

[Adstar]

While the rapture is Biblical .. A pre-tribulation rapture is unbiblical and an escapist doctrine bringing false hope to many..

Jesus made it clear we shall suffer tribulation in this world, Christians will be hated by all peoples because of our love for the Word of God, our LORD Jesus Christ..

John 16 KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Also read the Following chapte rand take note of the Bolded part at the end..

Luke 21 KJV
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If people are in heaven already they would have no need to Look up and know that their redemption is near... They would already be redeemed.. The doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is just false.. It is a very tempting doctrine know..But it is false nevertheless

 

[keras]

Actually the OP is right, excepting that is isn't the 'established Church', that is excluded from the GT, but only God's holy people, the ones that have stood firm in their faith in God, during the prior testing times, of the Sixth Seal disaster and the test of the peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt; the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32....those who violate the Covenant and those who keep faithful to their God.
The two groups, as we see in Zechariah 14:1-2 and in Revelation 12:6-17, are all Christians, but one group must remain in Jerusalem, Isaiah 28:14-15, while the others, who refused this treaty, are taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation.
Not to heaven, just to a place far away and out of the reach of the Anti-Christ. they are gathered at the Return. Matthew 24:31

 

[BABerean2]

Yes he is right, foolish virgins shall be leftbehind

A person is either a "Born Again" Christian or they are not.

There are not two different types of Christians.

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

 

[Another Lazarus]

Left Behind or Led Astray?

The clever virgins shall be taken to the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, do not worry to be led astray, its Jesus Himself who shall take the clever virgins.


But the foolish virgins leftbehind shall marry the Beast who rules in the great tribulation.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH