Why Genesis Matters - Dr. Jason Lisle

[BobRyan]

The creation story is a fictional story based on ancient mythology

isn't that the same story the devil likes to tell about the bible in general? I thin we all agree this is his agenda. So then when you willing take up his "line" how can you be certain that "wrong when he does it -- right when you do it" is in fact true?

 

[BobRyan]

We have the fossils, it's YEC that is the myth. That is what is leading to your insecurities.

We have science -- it is a myth that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time - given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough period of time filled with just-so stories easy enough to make up - but not actually science as that amoeba climbs its way up mount improbable" -

As for evolutionism-via-fossil-record... Your own atheist evolutionists are somewhat better informed about the myth nature of that claim than are many of its devotees.


Collin Patterson - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history


On April 10, 1979, Patterson replied to the author (Sunderland) in a most candid letter as follows:

===============================================================
April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson to Sunderland


“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]

=======================

Of course you do have your holy book "Urantia" to tell you that this by faith alone belief you have is the right one. But "But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test"

You are not being honest in these discussions, and you need some new material.

The fact that I bring up details that you find inconvenient - does mean you can palm off your preference as the new standard for 'what is honest and what is not' -- as I think we all know by now.

Of course evolution is in the UB, it's how life as we know it came to be. But that's not the smart amoeba becoming a rabbit. The UB claims that primitive life was planted on earth 550 mya, .

But then you deny that this could include single celled animals such as an amoeba? is that because amoebas are far too advanced forms of life for what the UB speculates in the past?

No, I didn't deny the existence of amoebas,

Cleaver "switch??

I never said that your Urantia Bible/Book denied the existence of amoebas - and we both know it.

look at "the details" in that post chain included here - then let me know what your answer to the actual question is -

just the claim that amoebas have minds intelligent enough to become a rabbit

Another "cleaver switch" ???

I never said the blind faith evolutionism argues that "Amoebas have MINDS intelligent enough to do something" -- Rather I said "talented enough" as in "able to do something" key to evolutionism's blind faith assertions. And BTW - I never argue that your Urantia book is the only place to find blind faith evolutionism.

 

[Colter]

isn't that the same story the devil likes to tell about the bible in general? I thin we all agree this is his agenda. So then when you willing take up his "line" how can you be certain that "wrong when he does it -- right when you do it" is in fact true?

I don't have any such faith in a devil who points out errors in the Bible. The devil was defeated, he is gone anyway.

 

[Colter]

We have science -- it is a myth that "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time - given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough period of time filled with just-so stories easy enough to make up - but not actually science as that amoeba climbs its way up mount improbable" -

As for evolutionism-via-fossil-record... Your own atheist evolutionists are somewhat better informed about the myth nature of that claim than are many of its devotees.


Collin Patterson - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history


On April 10, 1979, Patterson replied to the author (Sunderland) in a most candid letter as follows:

===============================================================
April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson to Sunderland


“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]

=======================

Of course you do have your holy book "Urantia" to tell you that this by faith alone belief you have is the right one. But "But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test"



The fact that I bring up details that you find inconvenient - does mean you can palm off your preference as the new standard for 'what is honest and what is not' -- as I think we all know by now.



But then you deny that this could include single celled animals such as an amoeba? is that because amoebas are far too advanced forms of life for what the UB speculates in the past?



Cleaver "switch??

I never said that your Urantia Bible/Book denied the existence of amoebas - and we both know it.

look at "the details" in that post chain included here - then let me know what your answer to the actual question is -



Another "cleaver switch" ???

I never said the blind faith evolutionism argues that "Amoebas have MINDS intelligent enough to do something" -- Rather I said "talented enough" as in "able to do something" key to evolutionism's blind faith assertions. And BTW - I never argue that your Urantia book is the only place to find blind faith evolutionism.

Did you know an acorn can become a tree? Is that what you mean by "blind faith"? The acorn was designed that way. That's how the primitive forms of life became what we are today. Evolution is a fact, YEC is blind faith, belligerent denial.

 

[BobRyan]

The creation story is a fictional story based on ancient mythology

isn't that the same story the devil likes to tell about the bible in general? I think we all agree this is his agenda. So then when you willingly take up his "line" how can you be certain that "wrong when he does it -- right when you do it" is in fact true?

I don't have any such faith in a devil who points out errors in the Bible. The devil was defeated, he is gone anyway.

He is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4
4 The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

He is "the prince of the power of the air" Ephesians 2:1-2
you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.


1 Peter 5 "8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. "

Bible deniers have no chance with him.

Only those who put on the full armor of God - have a chance against him.

Eph 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Bible deniers have no armor at all.

Symbolized by a lion in 1Peter 5 - and a dragon in Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

 

[BobRyan]

Did you know an acorn can become a tree? Is that what you mean by "blind faith"?

No because the acorn is engineered - intelligently designed to have the tree in it already - it has the ability to transform environment - raw elements directly into a leaf, stem, root, bark. It is a matter transforming "engine"... not a "rock" and not an amoeba trying to turn into a rabbit as we have with blind faith evolutionism.

 

[Colter]

isn't that the same story the devil likes to tell about the bible in general? I think we all agree this is his agenda. So then when you willingly take up his "line" how can you be certain that "wrong when he does it -- right when you do it" is in fact true?



He is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4
4 The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

He is "the prince of the power of the air" Ephesians 2:1-2
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.


1 Peter 5 "8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. "

Bible deniers have no chance with him.

Only those who put on the full armor of God - have a chance against him.

Eph 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Bible deniers have no armor at all.

Non of that fear based ignorance invalidates the fossil record, the geological record or the facts of physics which completely invalidate young earth creationism.

Reality deniers give religion a bad name. It's like the people in Scientology who can't conceive that they have been wrong.

Simple answer, in fact it's the truth, evolution is creation in motion. We have the proof.

 

[Colter]

No because the acorn is engineered - intelligently designed to have the tree in it already - it has the ability to transform environment - raw elements directly into a leaf, stem, root, bark. It is a matter transforming "engine"... not a "rock" and not an amoeba trying to turn into a rabbit as we have with blind faith evolutionism.

You are just being thick headed! The amoeba had the same "purposive potential" albeit far more complex, as the acorn. Inherent pattern reproduction.

 

[BobRyan]

The creation story is a fictional story based on ancient mythology

isn't that the same story the devil likes to tell about the bible in general? I think we all agree this is his agenda. So then when you willingly take up his "line" how can you be certain that "wrong when he does it -- right when you do it" is in fact true?

I don't have any such faith in a devil who points out errors in the Bible. The devil was defeated, he is gone anyway.

He is "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4
4 The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

He is "the prince of the power of the air" Ephesians 2:1-2
you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.


1 Peter 5 "8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. "

Bible deniers have no chance with him.

Only those who put on the full armor of God - have a chance against him.

Eph 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Bible deniers have no armor at all.

Symbolized by a lion in 1Peter 5 - and a dragon in Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Non of that fear based ignorance invalidates the fossil record,

The same demonic bible-denying that goes on with Genesis - will attack pretty much all of scripture as "fear-based" and "ignorant" because that is the fiction/myth-story that the devil tells about the word of God.

I am pointing you to the way of escape in those verses - each time you reject escape - you are of your own free will choosing slavery to Satan.

1 Corinthians 5 talks about the fact that there comes a time when out of love - God turns such a person over to Satan... so that they might fully realize their danger and choose to accept the way of escape found in the Gospel.

1 Cor 5
4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Satan views himself as somewhat of an "avenging angel" still - even though he is himself demon. He argues that since humans have sinned he should be allowed to torment and kill them -- see Job 1 and 2.

I am pretty sure - that nobody wants that. Not even you.

But God is running a " free will" universe and Satan knows it. Each time you condemn God's way of escape handed to you -- you are choosing Satan as your master and he knows it. The teeth of his trap sink in a little deeper each time. Better the way of escape than more free will choices for Satan as master.

The fish does not "know about" the bait as bait or the line and hook associated with it - but it is there all the same.

 

[BobRyan]

You are just being thick headed! The amoeba had the same "purposive potential" albeit far more complex, as the acorn. Inherent pattern reproduction.

absolutely false as every biologist will tell you. The single-cell amoeba has nothing of the sort.

By contrast the zillion-cell acorn 'demonstrates the ability' - all day long.

An acorn has cells, it can reproduce which means it uses energy. It is alive so it does use homeostasis in order to maintain balance. As for response, it may make homeostatic changes in response to it's environment. It's cells have cell walls because it is a plant cell.

Blind faith evolutionism takes its silly little imaginary "stories" and holds them up against observations in nature - such as the every-day acorn turning into a tree.... and then argues that its amoeba-turns-into-horse mythology is at the same level of observed fact. When we all know that is utterly false.

But the devil is stuck with pedaling myth - while we have actual observations in nature for trees!!

 

[Colter]

The creators of the Genesis story didn't know anything about evolution. Man never lived with dinosaurs of 60,000,000 BC. And they adopted the story of Adam from Mesipotamia.