Why faith?

Temirlan

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Well, so far I have given you only arguing, really, not my personal experience.

I was brought up in an upper-middle class family. My main interest in life was ice cream and candy. My brother would budget his weekly allowance so he always had money to buy ice cream from the neighborhood ice cream truck; but I would spend all my money, on Monday, on candy, then not have enough for ice cream. And I would be mad at how he would not share with me.

That was my life, as a kid before junior high school. My parents could talk critically about certain people not as well-to-do and educated as they were. From this, I think, I got my way of thinking it is ok to pick and choose who is good enough for me and who I could look down on. But I would take it further > in school, I would bully kids who were not as nice looking and not so popular. But my conceit possibly started with how my parents could judge people, even though they never would approve of me bullying > still, their ways of conceit helped make me able to become a bully, I would say.

But my character had to make me available to being effected like that. And I was missing out on love.

Then I became religious. I did all I understood I must do to make sure I got to Heaven. But, of course, this was me mainly trying to get something for my own self. I was not personally sharing with God and depending on Him to correct me deeply and personally guide me. He did take care of me, but mainly by how things went around me . . . while I could mainly be taking myself the wrong way . . . imagining what I was right for doing, then getting proof of otherwise.

In college I had a major worry problem, about if I would get good enough grades so I was not sinning by wasting the money payed for my college. I was not at all caring about anybody else!! Everything was a method, in relating with other people > doing what I thought was the right idea. There was no feeling for another person, but I did things for people, in order to get credit to get me into Heaven. I would date because I thought I a man was supposed to do that, not because I more and more appreciated a certain lady.

So, my character was not about caring about other people as myself, and tenderly sharing with other children of God while we care for and pray for people who need Jesus. I was not into seeking to learn from Jesus so I enjoyed "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) which comes with real correction and depending on God to care for us while He guides how we love people. We can rest and share with Him, all the time. But this comes with real character correction, not only my philosophy development and self-discipline things. It is God who does this in us.

I think I have noticed how people are weak so they can not have rest while relating with various other people. We can tend to pick and choose who we think we can handle. But God's love is all-loving and gives me strength and sensitivity so I can care about different people without arguing and getting hurt. Love does not have me only trying to use anyone.

Then I stopped trusting in my religion, and I asked Jesus to save me and take care of me for all eternity. But then I became very able to look down on other people and criticize them. But I was not at least as careful to see how I myself could be wrong. So, that went on for years, and I fell from my self-righteous faith. But then I did what was maybe one of the best things I could do, for then. I was in Navy medical duty in Naples, Italy. And I would take an Italian-English dictionary out on the streets and spend time with the people in the streets of Naples.

Instead of isolating myself with people who were my way . . . or trying to do this > I just mixed with various people, anyone who would have a conversation with me. It was the most social thing I ever did. And it showed me how wrong I was, by just criticizing people.

But what about Jesus? Was He real, did He still want me after I had made a fool of myself in front of Christians and others, by being critical and then losing my so-called faith? One day, along the Amalfi Coast, I was standing up on top of part of the shoreline hill-cliff, and I felt a little peace which was personal and loving in me. And I decided this could mean God was letting me know He was not through with me. But I would need to discover.

And then I went through different sorts of confusion and frustration. And I would go to different churches. I went at night into areas in Boston which were supposed to be dangerous with crime, to check out churches there; I integrated various churches and worship services. And, again, this was socializing, among other things, which could help me. And ones were kind to me and patient and gentle; I could see how I needed to become.

Then I trusted Jesus to do whatever He knew He wanted to do with me. And I started to get more encouraged, and I was more and more stable and busy with always sensing for what God at each moment would do with me. This added up, moment by moment, to working in a nursing home while walking to an inner city church where I stayed for years. Then I lived outside with Boston's street homeless, while also walking to other states and visiting churches along the way. Again and again, I noted how people were kind to me, knew how to relate with me even though they did not know me, and this is how I needed to become loving of any and all people.

Of course, a number of church people would criticize me for living outside, but in the same churches there were ones who knew how to share with me. And I knew this is how I needed to become, but have hope for anyone who treated me the wrong way. I myself could be self-righteously critical; I needed to have compassion on others while getting the correction I needed, myself.

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

Then I joined a church which preached the Bible well enough, I would say; and I have stayed here, partly because there are people who can effect me deeply to become more real with God and to care for any and all people and have hope for church people who are not for real . . . instead of how I can tend to welcome an excuse to look down on someone and condemn him or her. Still, I am being confronted and corrected about how I can have anti-love ways. But it works, how I am encouraged to trust God to correct me the way He can do real correction.

While I am imagining controlling and criticizing people who are a problem for me, in myself I can hear a gentle "this is not how Jesus wants me to love; I need to care for the person in prayer, instead." And then I stop and trust God to correct me to really love and bless each person. And have hope for how God is able to do a person good, versus how I might imagine controlling a person.

My own character did not have me going this way. God alone is able to change our nature so we share with Him in His peace and actively seek His correction and discover how He has us be loving with people > not only acting and making gestures.

Thank you for sharing this. You're a good guy on the path of self-perfecting. This is great. You know, though, I didn't see any clear experience of the God of the Bible in your life. Nothing supernatural or external. It seems to be all your own doing. Which to me is a high compliment.
 
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xianghua

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ok. now, we have found a spinning motor in nature like this one:

bacterial+flagella+in+detail.png




Difference between Prokaryotic flagella and Eukaryotic flagella ~ Biology Exams 4 U

so now we agree that there is evidence for design in nature too. right? we also find a gear like this one and the conclusion should be the same:

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA1Ni83ODUvb3JpZ2luYWwvaW5zZWN0LWdlYXJzLmpwZw==

(image from Creature with Interlocking Gears on Legs Discovered)

By whom? God? Satan? Extra-terrestrial intelligence? 4-dimensional beings?

irrelevant. now we are discussing about design vs non design. all the rest is a bonus.
 
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Temirlan

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ok. now, we have found a spinning motor in nature like this one:

bacterial+flagella+in+detail.png




Difference between Prokaryotic flagella and Eukaryotic flagella ~ Biology Exams 4 U

so now we agree that there is evidence for design in nature too. right? we also find a gear like this one and the conclusion should be the same:

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA1Ni83ODUvb3JpZ2luYWwvaW5zZWN0LWdlYXJzLmpwZw==

(image from Creature with Interlocking Gears on Legs Discovered)



irrelevant. now we are discussing about design vs non design. all the rest is a bonus.

It is evidence for an intelligence working. By direct creation or influencing a world to cause it self-organize into a well balanced system consisting of multiple sub-systems? Nobody knows. By God? Satan? Ashura Mazda? Tengri and Umai? Extra-terrestrial civilization? 4-dimensional beings? Who knows? Nobody. Ani ve ata lo yoder.. Instead of pretending you know the answer, be honest and say, I don't know. Then you can start looking for the real answer and there's a possibility to find it. If you stall yourself by faith, then you stop the seeking process, guaranteeing to never find the truth... It's a tragedy.

Let's be scientists, allowing for any possibility, and not religious zealots who blind themselves by only one possibility.
 
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Temirlan

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Not at all...on the contrary, my reason has been greatly enlarged.



I'm leading to the truth that we were created to be whole persons and to have wholesome relationships with others.

Nachon, toda. Created? Whole persons? Wholesome relationships? Lots of assumptions.
 
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Temirlan

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That means scrutinizing scepticism too.
Usually people are not too fond of the idea of some "invisible sky daddy" who owns you and who will judge you and determine your fate.

Where information is.
Nowadays, and more than ever before in history, that would be the internet.
But it's a jungle...Everything that is relevant to it.
Religions and their origins, beliefs and their origins, who pushes what ideas and why, culture and the origins of the ideas within it, who rules the world, who feeds our minds, what is their goal, who wrote the Bible, how did it come about, how did it really come about (look beyond the popular myths), what does the Bible really say / tell us / convey, philosophy (like why does anything exist at all), the human condition, our fate regarding eternity as unholy (corrupted) beings, the case for Christ, the case for God, the case for the Bible, the historicity of the Bible content, controversies surrounding it all.

Personally i kind of started my search thinking Islam might be "it", but it horrible failed the test regarding credibility.
Before that i was a bit of a spiritual new age Buddhist.
Atheism never made sense to me, it's philosophically very weak and ultimately renders any form of existence pointless.

My point is that it is a big picture kind of thing.
Considering all that is relevant (which takes time and effort to get to know about) the findings will paint a picture of what's the deal.
For me, the opposition to Jesus Christ and the Biblical truths was a big piece of evidence in favour of Jesus Christ and the Bible.
A good example of popular opposition propaganda is the Zeitgeist movie, the part about religion.
Millions (including myself at the time) believe that nonsense.
But it turned out to be a pack of pathetic theosophical bunk.

What also helped a lot was that my life collapsed on me, and that drove me to seek serious answers to serious existentional questions, because i was very close to calling it quits on this crazy planet.
When life is fine, people are preoccupied with the things that go well enough to continue pursuing them.
I did pray hard to the unknown 'God' that might be out there, that i would find some truth, which may have helped. (who knows, right?)
I think i'm alive today because i did eventually find answers that make the misery of life bearable.
Now, some 10 years later, i'm doing fairly okay, which is better that it was.
My ultimate fate is in the hands of God, who is God and therefore my creator and judge.
He gave his only begotten Son, who died in our stead and paid for our sins (unholiness and corruption), so that we may have eternal life, which is why God created us in the first place.
I never expected this to be the truth.
I was shocked and a bit turned off at first, because Christianity is and has been quite a wicked mess, and i have always despised it.
But i don't believe in Christianity, but rather in Jesus Christ, and i can learn about God, get to know Him a little, through the Bible.
As of yet i have not "met Jesus" though, like some Christians claim they have.

Maybe, but maybe mainly as an organized religion?
I see a lot of undermining of the actual foundations, which is what the Bible conveys to us.
It is true that here in NL (EU) it's not growing.
Not in my neck of the woods anyway..

Psychology again. If it works for you, it's great.
 
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xianghua

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It is evidence for an intelligence working.


great. so we both agree that nature need design. as for who made nature i said that its just a bonus question and irrelevant to the question of design. thus i didnt said who the designer is.

 
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Temirlan

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great. so we both agree that nature need design. as for who made nature i said that its just a bonus question and irrelevant to the question of design. thus i didnt said who the designer is.


I've edited my post to be more clear. "Design" is extremely simplistic. There are multiple possibilities. Good old design is one of them. It's evidence of intelligence working. Design or evolution or what other method of manifesting itself is a question. Maybe we're inside a huge simulation system? Matrix style. We don't know.
 
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Sketcher

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I grew up in an atheist country. "There is no God, all religions are bad. Faith is blindness" Why faith? Faith is voluntary refusal to think, isn't it? Why faith? We have minds to learn, to seek, to experience, to understand. I do not reject the idea of metaphysical at all. Yes, there might be God, heaven and hell, whatever. All is possible. Why faith? If you don't know something for sure, just say "I don't know". Please be honest, people. Be honest! Why lie your whole life to yourselves and to others? I see no point in that. Waste of time.
Sounds like they wanted you to have faith in what they told you, and faith that the state knew what was best.

I don't have faith. I either know something, or admit I don't know it. No place for faith, which is blind rejection of reality.
Faith is part of the human experience. You have faith in something, or in someone if you are able to function in society, and in life. Individual people don't have the brain capacity, the time, or the inclination to operate on zero faith. Even if you insist on having no faith at all, you are really having faith in the premise that having no faith is best, because you're believing in a principle that is unknowable for all circumstances. And there are various circumstances in which proving everything you accept is undesirable, either for the health of a relationship, or for making the best use of your time, or for the sake of your own happiness or sanity.

Since faith is therefore something that every functional person has, I have no problems with accepting it as part of my own makeup and outlook. It's there, might as well just admit it, embrace it, and move on.
 
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Tone

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Thank you for sharing this. You're a good guy on the path of self-perfecting. This is great. You know, though, I didn't see any clear experience of the God of the Bible in your life. Nothing supernatural or external. It seems to be all your own doing. Which to me is a high compliment.

Nachon, toda. Created? Whole persons? Wholesome relationships? Lots of assumptions.

You assume personhood and even the moral criteria to deem @com7fy8 as being a "good guy"...
 
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Temirlan

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Sounds like they wanted you to have faith in what they told you, and faith that the state knew what was best.


Faith is part of the human experience. You have faith in something, or in someone if you are able to function in society, and in life. Individual people don't have the brain capacity, the time, or the inclination to operate on zero faith. Even if you insist on having no faith at all, you are really having faith in the premise that having no faith is best, because you're believing in a principle that is unknowable for all circumstances. And there are various circumstances in which proving everything you accept is undesirable, either for the health of a relationship, or for making the best use of your time, or for the sake of your own happiness or sanity.

Since faith is therefore something that every functional person has, I have no problems with accepting it as part of my own makeup and outlook. It's there, might as well just admit it, embrace it, and move on.

I agree with most of what you're saying. In everyday life I accept it. You don't expect me to fight windmills, right? However, in my intellectual search for truth, I remove faith as much as I can to try and stay honest and objective.

In my atheist country, not anymore, most people were not atheist. They were quite free thinking. Officially, yes, everyone professed atheism and materialistic phylosophy, but behind closed kitchen doors and in heart, people had all kinds of religious and non-religious metaphysical ideas. True atheists were a small minoriry. I never was one.
 
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Temirlan

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Is that all you can come up with?
I guess it works for you...

I enjoyed reading your testimony and really appreciate you sharing it with me. I'm glad you found your life path with Jesus, which makinv a positive difference for you. I don't see God in your story, though. You are working through life and holding on to a belief that's helping you. So many peopld do it. Both religious snd non-religious. This has nothing to do with really knowing that the information presented in religion is true. I can draw a unicorn on my bedroom wall and worship it with all my heart, dedicating my whole life to it. This devotion might turn my life around and shape me as a truly wonderful individual. Does it make the Saving Unicorn an objective reality? No.
 
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Hieronymus

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I enjoyed reading your testimony and really appreciate you sharing it with me. I'm glad you found your life path with Jesus, which makinv a positive difference for you. I don't see God in your story, though. You are working through life and holding on to a belief that's helping you. So many peopld do it. Both religious snd non-religious. This has nothing to do with really knowing that the information presented in religion is true. I can draw a unicorn on my bedroom wall and worship it with all my heart, dedicating my whole life to it. This devotion might turn my life around and shape me as a truly wonderful individual. Does it make the Saving Unicorn an objective reality? No.
You have missed the point completely.
I and many others, came to the conclusion this is the Truth by seeking answers, investigating relevant subjects, without the desire to find this particular answer.
Seeing as you try to wave that away and make it something personal, it seems to me you have a problem with "reasonable faith".
And that's fine.
I just don't understand why you start this topic to discuss this with Christians, when it seems you don't want to hear answers.
 
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com7fy8

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You claimed you have had experiences of God. I asked to please elaborate, and you decide to dodge my question? Please answer or give reasons why you choose not to.

EDIT: reading your 2nd post
Most of all is my general internal experience. I read what the Bible says God does with people, and I trust God to correct me so I am sharing with Him and discovering how He has me loving.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

All the time, I think this means, I can submit for how God rules me in His own peace. And this does me so much good, for everything. God's peace is almighty against fear and bitterness and boredom and loneliness and dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure and excitement, plus our Creator's peace makes me creative for how to love every person.

So, this is one example of my internal experience of God producing what He means by His word. On my own I never thought up anything like this.

There are many things and what people do around me, which I consider to be God's doing.

For one example, I see how God does not only write poetry, but there is poetry of how He has people in my life. For one example, our church helps with a truck ministry for helping needy people. And our preparation team has two sisters, and one looks like my first serious romantic adult companion while she also has the first name of one of my first childhood girlfriends. The other sister has the same unusual name as the daughter of a pastor I was with in an inner city store front church for years. And I have seen other sorts of poetry not only of words, but of people and names and events.

Years ago, I walked down a railroad and then went on some streets, at night. A cruiser stopped and picked me up, and the passenger officer asked me where I was going. In my head, I heard something like, "Tell them you are going to North Carolina to visit a church." I was in Massachusetts. If I told them that, I understood they could take me into custody. But I obeyed what I was told to tell them. He said, "Ok," they took me to their station, then let me walk free. Then state troopers in Rhode Island took me to a mental health institution. And one day they took us on an outing to an eating place; I looked it up on a wall map > it was, in Rhode Island, north of what is called the "Carolina Management Area". So, indeed I did go to a location north of Rhode Island's Carolina Management Area.

Then years later, I did walk to North Carolina and I visited a church there.
 
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Sketcher

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I agree with most of what you're saying. In everyday life I accept it. You don't expect me to fight windmills, right? However, in my intellectual search for truth, I remove faith as much as I can to try and stay honest and objective.

In my atheist country, not anymore, most people were not atheist. They were quite free thinking. Officially, yes, everyone professed atheism and materialistic phylosophy, but behind closed kitchen doors and in heart, people had all kinds of religious and non-religious metaphysical ideas. True atheists were a small minoriry. I never was one.
I can understand wanting to stay honest and objective. I still believe that faith has a place in the search for truth, though. If for instance, there was enough evidence for you to believe that Christ rose from the grave on the third day, you would then have to ask why did that happen. The best explanation for that would be that God the Father rose him from the grave, according to his plan. I claim that explanation by faith. It's also Occam's Razor in action (which itself takes faith if you're going to employ it).
 
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Temirlan

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You have missed the point completely.
I and many others, came to the conclusion this is the Truth by seeking answers, investigating relevant subjects, without the desire to find this particular answer.
Seeing as you try to wave that away and make it something personal, it seems to me you have a problem with "reasonable faith".
And that's fine.
I just don't understand why you start this topic to discuss this with Christians, when it seems you don't want to hear answers.

Most of my family are devout Mislims, and they claim Allah is doing great things in their lives. I see changes in their behavior because they follow the tenets of Islam. I see nothing of a supernatural being working, only their own doing. Same with your story. It doesn't diminish the achievements, but I ascribe them to the real cause - the human being, not imagined - God
 
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do you realy believe that?

I beleive nothing. Lo emuna. Emuna ze lo tov. Beleiving something is pretending to know when in the actual reality, you don't.

It's one of many, many possibilities. Is it true? I don't know. Possible? I think, yes.
 
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