Why they need the Holy Spirit at that point, when they have Jesus in the flesh? Did not He say He would send another comforter. Pilot didn't have a relationship with Jesus. Peter had a relationship.
And Peter followed Jesus...Isn't that what they called people who followed Jesus, "Christians"? You telling me that the people who got touched by Jesus while He was in the flesh...didn't get their hearts changed? Doesn't scripture say the Law was until Christ?
The issue, if we have one, and I'm not sure we do, is that you seemed to be objecting to my inclusion of confession as part of conversion, or what Christians do as a matter of course in living the Christian life. In that vain Peter's denial would not be a counter example, as being disciple or even an apostle before and after Acts 2:41 was qualitatively different. All of those promises, or at least a great many of them, that Jesus discussed regarding power from the Holy Spirit in John chapters 14 through 18 began to be fully realized from Acts 2:41 and there after.
My point was..it was a statement expressing that what we speak should flow within our heart. Recall Jesus saying they confess me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.
Jesus was citing Isaiah 29:13 against the Pharisees who criticized his disciples for not washing their hands. I guess my question is, what would it look like if someone lived out their confession that Jesus is the Christ and Lord insincerely? Insincerity rules out, living out your confession, at least to me. The Pharisees who Jesus directed that comment toward, they were denying Jesus. The "me" in Isaiah 29:13, we might say, from the Pharisees perspective was God the Father, although they would not have had a doctrine of the trinity to clarify the distinction.
What Baptism? Water?
Col 2:12 ....seems to be Expression
Of what happens when one is Baptized
Into Christ.
In the Christian era there is only one baptism [Ephesians 4:5], and it involves water [Acts 8:36-39].
Which tks to God for bringing my mind here.....this is also an ideal to me about bringing heaven to earth...meaning what is already finished in Christ now has to be brought about in reality on earth...meaning earth at heavens door.
And that is truly a state of deliverence.
So I agree it is baptism that saves, but not actually water but belief [trusting]in Jesus Christ. Being in Christ is our Baptism.
I think the English translations get this right, as Paul puts it we are saved
BY grace,
THROUGH faith,
IN baptism [Ephesians 2:8-9, Colossians 2:12]. So baptism is not the means [grace], nor the conduit [faith], but it is the moment [baptism] of salvation. But there is only one literal baptism in the Christian era, and it does involve water as I pointed out above. Although the word is applied analogically in Acts 2:1-5 and Acts 10:44-46 at least implicitly, and rightfully so. But it's important to realize that an analogical application of a word is not the thing itself.
The question is, is being in Christ a one time event?
In the sense of conversion, it is.
Especially since we are being taught to remain in Him..[in his love, in His teachings (obedience) ]
Therefore we are also being taught obedience unto death.
But keeping our absolute obligation of obedience to God doesn't make us saved or keep us saved. In this respect we are no different from every denizen of hell. Every person who has ever drawn a breath has had, still has, and will ever have, this same absolute obligation to be obedient to all God's laws that apply.
They will burn for their failings, but we won't. That is what pleading the finished work of Christ is all about. Temporally, everyone would be better off to keep God's law whether your forwarding address is in heaven or hell, but unlike our condemned fellows, we have power to apply to the enterprise of keeping that law. So nothing about being saved can make my preexisting absolute obligation to keep God's law, any more absolute. Absolute is as far in that direction as you can go.
Now having said that we may understand the expression scripture:
If you confess with your mouth and believe in the heart.....therefore our salvation is Jesus's Baptism.
I'm not sure what
"our salvation is Jesus's Baptism" actually means, as you write those words? If I said that, I would mean that when John baptized Jesus like the Levitical priest that he was, he transferred the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future to Jesus, like the Azazel goat, to be released into the wilderness, then to be carried through Jesus ministry, and to finally be nailed on the cross. But I'm not sure that is what you mean.
And it's not just getting into Him upon belief, but remaining in Him.
It seems to me that you've taken the notion that God will not make grace a golden prison, and you've converted that notion into the Christian life becoming an obstacle course.
For one, my point of Gal 2:16: they believed in Him in order to be Justified by the faith of Him.....
And my point in EPHESIANS 2 by one being first saved from their trespasses and sins....but now we must go on to how we continue to be saved from present sins.
Being saved from the judicial consequences of our sins is entering a plea. This is it:
regarding my sins, I plead the finish work of Christ on the cross. As long as we are breathing we could withdraw our plea, and change it to
go ahead and judge me on my record because after all, fair is fair, sadly some people have done that. But why? There is still only going to be one judgement day. There are only two lines. There is the FAIR line, and the GRACE line. The people who chose the FAIR line are all going to hell. The one thing that GRACE is not, it's not fair. Jesus kept 100% of the law, and took 100% of everyone's penalty. The equivalent of eternity in hell for every man woman and child who would ever live. You can hardly get less fair than that. But that is why it's called grace.
And that is through obedience [that then is what it means to me to confess with mouth and believe in heart as well] For it's continual as long as you heart and mouth add up...meaning
Something like James said faith without works is dead. Therefore people can lie when they say one thing but do another.
" . . . continu[ing] to be saved from present sins," is an entirely different meaning of the term "saved." This is like comparing Christianity to every other religion, world view or philosophy in the world. Every world view is trying to save the proselyte from something. But whatever that fate might be, the solution is always the same. It's "works." When we are being "saved" from disobedience, by the Holy Spirit, in the processe we generally call sanctification, that is very much like the promises of other religions, world views, philosophies and so on. The difference is, the power of the Holy Spirit is real and he actually can cure us of sin sickness. But this does not keep us saved. It makes us the kind of person who would be happy in heaven. What ever healing the Spirit accomplishes before we draw our last breath, he will finish before we enter the gates of heaven.
First when what I meant about two types of salvation was that you can be saved from many different things by our God who is Salvation Himself. My thought was in Gal 2:16, "for they believed:[which is being saved from trespasses and sins]
In order that they might be "justified by faith"[the second salvational aspect]
You are saying it is the whole deal and maybe it is..but at this time having not read it....I will say, if we must confess our sins today then we must continually be, being made right with God. Isn't that why it is impossible to please God without faith?
It sounds again How heaven comes to earth [or rather is manifested on earth]
Having been justified by faith[could mean out of the faith, but I need to look it up]we have peace with God.
Well, when you read 1 John in context, it can only be understood hyperbolically, for lack of a better term. First he says
you no longer sin, but then he says,
but when you do sin. If we no longer sin, there is no case when we do sin. So we have to factor that in when we come to 1 John 1:9. He is not saying that when we sin the plea we entered when we converted is no longer valid, until we confess this new sin to add it to the probation arrangement. What he is saying in my judgement is we can't leave off that attitude of repentance we had when we first came to Christ. That
"God have mercy on me a sinner" attitude.
Do you always have peace with God?
No, nor should I. God is constantly pointing out what is wrong with me. That is how we are conformed to the image of his Son.
or does your sins seperate you?
I try not to anthropomorphize sin. When I sin I'm separating myself from God. I'm like the child who closes his eyes and thinks that no one can see him. God is not a wit further away. But I've created this space in my perception, which is less distressful than, considering the pain it must cause God. That is exactly why we can't forget the
"God have mercy on me a sinner" attitude. It puts us back on the treatment for our sin sickness.
Here then is the saying [there is no condemnation for them who is in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit]
Therefore His peace is our salvation too
Got to stop here...finished the rest of conversation on my trip driving across country with my spouse.
Travel safely I'll remember you and your wife in my prayers.
My point is, we know what we have when we walk in it. Your thought on the other hand is God did it all..and I believe He did it all and therefore there is no part I play on earth. Yet it is written in Hebrews to labor to enter into His Rest. For to me His rest is our salvation.....many people failed to enter the promise land and God had showed His works...today I believe that promise land Is Jesus. And there is more blessing found in Him....
Yes, we should talk more of that Hebrews 4 passage next time. God bless you and keep you.
