Why don't liberal Christians leave Christianity?

cloudyday2

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Given that performing sacrifices was a thing back then, the crucifixion
would make more sense in that context.
Taking the example of Abraham and Isaac, there was a proper way to sacrifice. Jesus was simply executed, and Jesus didn't want to be killed. I have a feeling that if Pontius Pilate had freed Jesus, then He would have been happy to walk away alive. Jesus was accused and convicted and executed against His wishes.

That said, the sentiment of "I would die for you" is a timeless one.
Usually there is a purpose served by the death. The bodyguard covers the leader's body to block the bullets for example. To just walk in front of a train doesn't work.
 
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cloudyday2

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Maybe rather than focusing on the Crucifixion, we should focus on the rejection of Jesus by the Temple authorities and the acceptance of Jesus by God. The Crucifixion was merely a natural result of the rejection, and the Resurrection miracle proved to the followers of Jesus that God accepted Him and gave them hope of a future resurrection of all (?)
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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Maybe rather than focusing on the Crucifixion, we should focus on the rejection of Jesus by the Temple authorities and the acceptance of Jesus by God. The Crucifixion was merely a natural result of the rejection, and the Resurrection miracle proved to the followers of Jesus that God accepted Him and gave them hope of a future resurrection of all (?)

For an agnostic that is a reasonable assumption, and probably not far from the truth. And a reasonable way of thinking. But needs further persueing.
Another way of thinking is that he never actually died on the cross but recoverd sufficiently to meet his followers three days later, but eventually died of complications.
Of courese that scenario is completely unsupported and invented to fit the few points that were reported.
If we are looking for factual proof we are not going to find it.
We have little choice but accept the stories from such witnesses that we do have.
In this case they are also supported by the Gnostic gospel of Mary, which develops the position of Mary Magalene as Apostle to the Apostles. A status recently confirmed by Pope Francis.
 
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hedrick

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What do you think about the purpose of the crucifixion?
Of course the immediate cause was Romans and Jewish leaders being threatened by Jesus.

But I'd agree with the tradition that God had a plan to bring good out of it. I don't think we need to confine ourselves to one specific definition of what that was.
  • The initial understanding seems to have been that God placed a stamp of approval on Jesus' role and mission.
  • Jesus was seen by Paul and others as showing what is going to happen to us, i.e. that we are also going to be resurrected. Technically this isn't necessary, since Jesus taught about eternal life during his ministry, but a demonstration is always helpful.
  • There are lots of ideas of the atonement. At the very least, God accepted human suffering. (I take it for granted that God was present in some way through Christ.) By being involved in human life, God breaks down the barrier between us. In principle that wouldn't require death. In 30 years of life, Jesus obviously couldn't experience every possible human experience. But it's most convincing, and I think more helpful to the mass of humans whose life is not very pleasant, if he experiences the dark side of human existence.
I don't accept penal substitution. That is, I don't think we're so horrific, nor that God is so trapped by his own justice, that Jesus' death is needed for him to forgive us. I think its goal is to change us.
 
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Sketcher

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"Liberal" means different things to different people. To me it's a tradition of theology going back to the 17th Cent, but in popular discussions it has a much more diffuse meaning. I normally use mainline, because there's a specific set of churches covered by it, so we can look at what people in those churches believe. Spong's beliefs are not typical in mainline Christianity.

I think the real question raised by this thread is whether Christianity is limited to the culture in which it arose. Many Christians want to bundle pre-modern beliefs about creation, history, gender roles, etc, into Christianity, because of course the Bible reflects that culture. I think this is a bad idea. I think there's actually a God, who acted in history and sent his Son. The fact that the people who experienced this were pre-modern doesn't mean that God and Christ is limited to the specific cultures that experienced him and wrote about it.

This is a problem for most faiths. Islam is often tied to attitudes of traditional Arab culture, but there are Muslims who don't think it need to be. Judaism, Buddhism, etc, all have similar issues.

Some people thought that as culture changes, religion would die away. That doesn't seem to be happening. It's clear that even secular people think there's something more than this world, and are interested in it. So I don't think religion has to die out. But there's a big question of whether Christianity wants to bring Christ to the modern culture, or demand that people adopt 1st Cent beliefs and attitudes in order to participate.
The problem with that is drawing the line between what to throw away, and what to keep. For instance, I have a family member who is very liberal on a number of issues - too liberal for the United Methodists to allow for an ordination. Yet, she strict on other issues, on which she will boldly declare a Christian stance. I find her level of picking and choosing bizarre.
 
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hedrick

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The problem with that is drawing the line between what to throw away, and what to keep. For instance, I have a family member who is very liberal on a number of issues - too liberal for the United Methodists to allow for an ordination. Yet, she strict on other issues, on which she will boldly declare a Christian stance. I find her level of picking and choosing bizarre.
Let me try with Paul. What I depend upon Paul for is our earliest information on Jesus (e.g. the Words of Institution, and the Resurrection accounts), and how Jesus teaching, death, and resurrection affected the first Christians. He was the first person to think through the connection between Judaism and Christianity, with results that are quite basic to our understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

Where he’s simply reflecting his own culture, with no particular connection to Jesus, it’s of less interest. To give a non-controversial example, he speaks of incest. I have no reason to suggest accepting incest. But he just takes it for granted. Even pagans agree, he tells us. Similarly the sin list in 1 Cor 6:9 is pretty typical of Jewish ideas. He doesn’t explain the list or connect it with Jesus’ teaching. He just takes it for granted. His acceptance of slavery is another example. He had no particular reason to rethink that, though he wanted owners to treat their slaves well.

The hair length thing is almost amusing. He says “doesn’t nature teach”, and then ends up, well if anyone disagrees, that’s not how we do it. Most people today recognize that how people see things like covering your head and hair length is to large extent cultural.

When he gives serious attention to rethinking things, he can be quite radical. Eating meat sacrificed to idols is a well-known example. That’s an area where he departed from his Jewish background. And other Christians didn’t necessarily follow him, as we see from Rev 2:14,20.

Jews have had to deal with this issue as well. Even in the 1st Cent the situation was at times different than in OT times. Thus Mat 16 and 18 refer to the power of loosing and binding, which is the authority of a rabbi to make interpretations. I certainly don’t think the Church is inerrant. But the Christian community has the responsibility to help us decide what’s appropriate for today. I have reasonable confidence in the judgements of the mainline community.

You may ask, why the mainline community, and not either Catholics or conservative Protestants? Because the other major communities don’t really use that authority. They try to avoid using the power of the keys, and claim either unchanging tradition or literal interpretation of Scripture (which turns out to look a lot like unchanging tradition). That means that they don’t do the same kind of ethical investigations that the mainline community does. (Actually, Catholic ethicists do, but the hierarchy tends to ignore them where they conflict with tradition.)

This is mostly about ethics, because that tends to be where the hot issues are. But there's also a different approach to theology. I don't have time now to do a review of that, and in many respects CF isn't a place it can be done anyway.
 
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SkyWriting

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Based on the beliefs professed by many liberal Christians, I wonder why they don't leave Christianity for atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc?

Becasue Jesus was a radical Himself.
 
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cloudyday2

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Hetta

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Based on the beliefs professed by many liberal Christians, I wonder why they don't leave Christianity for atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc?

Here are some possible reasons I can imagine. I'm sure each person's actual reasons will be unique.
(1) It is better socially to label yourself as a Christian when interacting with family, coworkers, customers, etc.
(2) You value the traditions of Christianity and want to keep them active.
(3) You value the friends or social networking available in church.
(4) You think your church is a good vehicle for charitable activities.
(5) You had a spiritual/mystical experience that seemed to validate Christianity, and you are trying to reconcile that experience with science and history through Liberal Christian theology.
(6) ???
Why don't conservative Christians leave Christianity for ... all kind of reasons. If I made a similar list of why conservative Christians stay in church I would be banned from this forum. Your suggestions are insulting to say the last: back to the old, Liberal Christians aren't real Christians nonsense.
 
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cloudyday2

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Why don't conservative Christians leave Christianity for ... all kind of reasons. If I made a similar list of why conservative Christians stay in church I would be banned from this forum. Your suggestions are insulting to say the last: back to the old, Liberal Christians aren't real Christians nonsense.
Some people have been confused by what I meant by "liberal Christian", so I wanted to clarify that just in case. I did not mean liberal politically; I mean liberal in their willingness to modify traditional Christian beliefs. A milder example from the Episcopal church was the ordination of women as priests, but many liberal Christians have gone way beyond those types of changes. Check out Bishop Spong's 10 points here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong

I guess it's hard for me to understand the extreme liberal Christians. I was raised as an Episcopalian, but church and the beliefs have always seemed icky. Now that I have lost faith, I have no desire to be a liberal Christian. I hope to never set foot in a church again as long as I live. So I don't get those people.
 
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Berl

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You never know who is behind the harlots veil until she exposes our own unrighteousness caused by judging her by appearance, Judah learned that from Tamar, Genesis 38:24. We are one conscience body no matter the mask being worn or labels one wears, careful who you want to burn it maybe you who will reap what you have sown.
 
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SkyWriting

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I think you might not appreciate what some liberal Christians believe. Check out Bishop Spong's 10 points of reform in this Wikipedia article and let me know your reaction:
John Shelby Spong - Wikipedia

I have a hard time believing he is a real person, becasue most people have a solid base of understanding in what they believe. He produced 10 points of reform, but failed to provide any examples for the reasons for his 10 points other than "Darwin" which looks to be his real God. He is a caricature of "Evilution" and seems to be at the very beginning of his crisis, by ticking off each aspect of religion he has had doubts about, and so far, failed to find any substitute.
He says Jesus was born of a woman. I figured that out myself, with help from scripture of course. Without scripture, how would I know that?

jesus-in-the-manger.jpg
 
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cloudyday2

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I have a hard time believing he is a real person, becasue most people have a solid base of understanding in what they believe.
Yep, he's highly respected in the Episcopal Church and he has written many popular books.

You might look at this link also for Progressive Christianity. This is probably the type of Christianity that Spong espouses.
https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
 
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SkyWriting

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Yep, he's highly respected in the Episcopal Church and he has written many popular books.

You might look at this link also for Progressive Christianity. This is probably the type of Christianity that Spong espouses.
https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/

Most of that follows Christianity correctly:
Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If you stick with this passage, then you come to many of his conclusions.
I stick with this passage, so I must be "progressive."
What Does the Bible Say About Progressive Christianity?
 
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hedrick

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I have a hard time believing he is a real person, becasue most people have a solid base of understanding in what they believe.
He's a real person. He's just way out beyond people who are typically called liberal believe.
 
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Berl

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Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote some interesting observation on the christian religions conception that was solidified around the third century, if he is correct then the whole thing is plagiarized from so called pagan sources.
The mystery of Christ within and man being the temple was taught before the Pauline epistles or the teachings of Jesus, they are Divine histories that transcend labels and time.
Most that deny or leave traditional christian teaching is because it majors on the skin level limited to Caesars world, the outer coverings of the temple covered with dead skins that keep the hidden manna of the dark sayings in the dark about who we really are as a temple of the living God.
 
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cloudyday2

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Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote some interesting observation on the christian religions conception that was solidified around the third century, if he is correct then the whole thing is plagiarized from so called pagan sources.
The mystery of Christ within and man being the temple was taught before the Pauline epistles or the teachings of Jesus, they are Divine histories that transcend labels and time.
Most that deny or leave traditional christian teaching is because it majors on the skin level limited to Caesars world, the outer coverings of the temple covered with dead skins that keep the hidden manna of the dark sayings in the dark about who we really are as a temple of the living God.
The problem with taking such an ethereal view of Christianity is that Jesus was a real person in history with real teachings, predictions, etc. I have a feeling that if we could meet the real historical Jesus today, we would all be disappointed to find that he is too small for the shadow he cast on history (IMO).

EDIT: Liberal Christian theologians would probably be happier if the Christ Myth theory was correct so there would be no historic Jesus to explain away.

Of course there is a lot of uncertainty in the details of the historic Jesus. My ideas are only uneducated guesses. LOL
 
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SkyWriting

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PloverWing

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Yep, he's highly respected in the Episcopal Church and he has written many popular books.

You might look at this link also for Progressive Christianity. This is probably the type of Christianity that Spong espouses.
https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/

Well, here is my definitive list. I claim to be way out there.
What Does the Bible Say About Progressive Christianity?

As has been mentioned earlier, there are two different senses of "liberal": 1) theologically liberal, in the sense of being willing to set aside elements of Christian tradition that are closely bound to an earlier culture, in an effort to apply the principles of the gospel to the newer, different culture we live in now; and 2) socially liberal, in the sense of stressing compassion and social justice and solidarity with the poor. Bishop Spong is both. I have heard him interviewed about the social justice issues he encountered as Bishop of Newark, a diocese that includes some troubled urban areas in North Jersey, and I agreed with much of what he had to say. On the other hand, I think he goes much too far in his theological liberalism, discarding elements of Christian tradition that I think we ought to keep.

Progressive Christianity (social liberalism) is, in my view, a pretty straightforward application of the teachings of Jesus. Bishop Spong's reinterpretation of the Incarnation and the Resurrection, on the other hand, are much less straightforward. I'm willing to hear him out (I haven't yet read his books), because I respect him as a thinker and as a bishop in my church, but suspect I will disagree with the theological revisions he wants to make.
 
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