Why don't I see love from many American Christians?

[JackRT]

What gives you the right to call Anglicans version of Christianity 'dead'? Frankly as someone who has read the bible, I'd consider their kind, tolerant Christianity to be a lot closer to the teaching of Jesus than I would the aggressive Christian groups that are sadly too common in the US, with their focus on judging others and casting stones.

What a lot of presumptous nonsense. I think they are 'better people' because they embody traits that everyone should admire and laud, like compassion, forgiveness, understanding and love for others. The fact you think that is 'allowing people to run all over you' means that you don't represent any form of Christianity that I recognize from the bible. These are people that I'd like to live more like, despite not being religious myself. If Jesus did come to spread a gospel, then it seem far more likely to me that his message would be one that people genuinely feel a desire to emulate, not one that spreads hate and causes divisions.

Yes, what you're doing here is something I see over and over and over. Christians chaining together biblical quotes of their choosing to create the narrative they wish to push. I could equally chain together a set of bible quotes that gave a wildly different impression to the one you just tried to create. If the bible has meaning then it has meaning as a full document and the common themes that run through it are what is important, not cherry picked quotes taken out of context. The entire story of Jesus life is a story of forgiveness, compassion and love. Yet I still see Americans insisting on quoting a single line about swords as if this completely undermines the entire book where Jesus tells his followers not to use violence.

The very first part of the bible tells you not to judge lest you be judged in turn. Yet you just described a Christian religion of millions as 'dead'. You're kind of making my point for me here.

I agree completely. I have been a Christian for over 75 years and in all that time I can honestly say that the most Christlike person I have ever personally met was a Hindu.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

What gives you the right to call Anglicans version of Christianity 'dead'? Frankly as someone who has read the bible, I'd consider their kind, tolerant Christianity to be a lot closer to the teaching of Jesus than I would the aggressive Christian groups that are sadly too common in the US, with their focus on judging others and casting stones.



What a lot of presumptous nonsense. I think they are 'better people' because they embody traits that everyone should admire and laud, like compassion, forgiveness, understanding and love for others. The fact you think that is 'allowing people to run all over you' means that you don't represent any form of Christianity that I recognize from the bible. These are people that I'd like to live more like, despite not being religious myself. If Jesus did come to spread a gospel, then it seem far more likely to me that his message would be one that people genuinely feel a desire to emulate, not one that spreads hate and causes divisions.



Yes, what you're doing here is something I see over and over and over. Christians chaining together biblical quotes of their choosing to create the narrative they wish to push. I could equally chain together a set of bible quotes that gave a wildly different impression to the one you just tried to create. If the bible has meaning then it has meaning as a full document and the common themes that run through it are what is important, not cherry picked quotes taken out of context. The entire story of Jesus life is a story of forgiveness, compassion and love. Yet I still see Americans insisting on quoting a single line about swords as if this completely undermines the entire book where Jesus tells his followers not to use violence.

The very first part of the bible tells you not to judge lest you be judged in turn. Yet you just described a Christian religion of millions as 'dead'. You're kind of making my point for me here.

Don't you find it the least bit ironic that you feel the right to import Biblical Scriptures into your judgement scheme, while condemning judgment? And you do this while denying the existence of the very God those Scriptures profess to be about? Then, you think, because you read a book you don't believe is really of God (because you don't believe in a God at all), you feel that you somehow your judgment of the people in that group should be taken seriously?

The difference between you and me is that God woke me up. I don't "chaining together" anything for my own convenience or profit. But, people said the same thing about Jesus, so thanks for your inadvertent complement. As long as you stay in the cliffnotes version of the Bible, which is all that is available to you as an unbeliever, you will never understand the Truth of God's Word. It goes a whole lot deeper than you can understand. Jesus is a whole lot more than "forgiveness, love and compassion" as you define Him. If you have read Scripture, I am sure you caught the difference between His definition of love and ours, right? What happened to the Jesus who ruffled feathers--who rebuked even His closest friends for their unbelief? Who told people who he healed to "go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon (them)? People were divided about that Jesus, it wasn't touchy feely, lovey dovey as you portray. And, Jesus Himself said "If they don't believe My words, they won't believe yours." I am sure you are familiar also with the times He was downright angry and also times when He pronounced woes on even whole cities for their lack of repentance after seeing His miracles, right? I am sure you are aware what He told His original apostles about waiting until the power fell on them, right? I am sure you are aware of how He intervened in Saul's (who became Paul) life and then Paul began being used by God in that very same way of power, right? I am sure you are also aware of the power God gave the deacons spoken about in Acts 6, right? So, what happened to that in many places that call themselves churches? There are plenty of religions that limit their talk to words similar to those you have "cherry-picked." That isn't what makes Christians different. In all your reading of the Bible, you missed God. That's the bigger problem you need to deal with for your own sake.

I hope, for you sake, God will have mercy on you and give you another chance to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life, before it is too late.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I agree completely. I have been a Christian for over 75 years and in all that time I can honestly say that the most Christlike person I have ever personally met was a Hindu.

I hope God will open your eyes to see the integral part of Christianity that you have been missing all these years.

 

[Kentonio]

Don't you find it the least bit ironic that you feel the right to import Biblical Scriptures into your judgement scheme, while condemning judgment? And you do this while denying the existence of the very God those Scriptures profess to be about? Then, you think, because you read a book you don't believe is really of God (because you don't believe in a God at all), you feel that you somehow your judgment of the people in that group should be taken seriously?

The difference between you and me is that God woke me up. I don't "chaining together" anything for my own convenience or profit. But, people said the same thing about Jesus, so thanks for your inadvertent complement. As long as you stay in the cliffnotes version of the Bible, which is all that is available to you as an unbeliever, you will never understand the Truth of God's Word. It goes a whole lot deeper than you can understand. Jesus is a whole lot more than "forgiveness, love and compassion" as you define Him. If you have read Scripture, I am sure you caught the difference between His definition of love and ours, right? What happened to the Jesus who ruffled feathers--who rebuked even His closest friends for their unbelief? Who told people who he healed to "go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon (them)? People were divided about that Jesus, it wasn't touchy feely, lovey dovey as you portray. And, Jesus Himself said "If they don't believe My words, they won't believe yours." I am sure you are familiar also with the times He was downright angry and also times when He pronounced woes on even whole cities for their lack of repentance after seeing His miracles, right? I am sure you are aware what He told His original apostles about waiting until the power fell on them, right? I am sure you are aware of how He intervened in Saul's (who became Paul) life and then Paul began being used by God in that very same way of power, right? I am sure you are also aware of the power God gave the deacons spoken about in Acts 6, right? So, what happened to that in many places that call themselves churches? There are plenty of religions that limit their talk to words similar to those you have "cherry-picked." That isn't what makes Christians different. In all your reading of the Bible, you missed God. That's the bigger problem you need to deal with for your own sake.

I hope, for you sake, God will have mercy on you and give you another chance to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life, before it is too late.

Jesus shaking things up is not a commandment to you to go around judging other people and casting aspersions about them. He specifically tells you not to judge people, yet apparently you just ignore that part? He specifically tells you to love everyone like they were your own brother, and do you do that? He goes on and on and on about how love and compassion and forgiveness are at the root of everything, yet you’d rather focus on division and sowing discord? Are you trying to follow Jesus or be Jesus?

 

[JackRT]

I hope God will open your eyes to see the integral part of Christianity that you have been missing all these years.

So you think that I am missing an integral part of Christianity because I saw more Christian love, compassion and forgiveness in action in a Hindu than I see in you?

 

[redleghunter]

So you think that I am missing an integral part of Christianity because I saw more Christian love, compassion and forgiveness in action in a Hindu than I see in you?

I am heartened to hear a Hindu believes in the atonement.

Did he eventually convert?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So you think that I am missing an integral part of Christianity because I saw more Christian love, compassion and forgiveness in action in a Hindu than I see in you?

I love that you want to make it personal. But, I don't. You claimed something. I simply declared you are missing something about the Christian faith if you think a hindu can be more Christlike without the Holy Spirit. In essence, you have declared that faith in Jesus and having the Holy Spirit isn't critical; because what you can see on the surface is more important than what God is doing in the heart.

I don't apologize if this offends you and don't take offense that you tried to insult me. I can handle that.

 

[JackRT]

I love that you want to make it personal. But, I don't. You claimed something.

Well, actually you did make it personal by claiming something about me that is not in evidence. Moreover, I did not make a claim, I made an observation.

I simply declared you are missing something about the Christian faith if you think a hindu can be more Christlike without the Holy Spirit. In essence, you have declared that faith in Jesus and having the Holy Spirit isn't critical; because what you can see on the surface is more important than what God is doing in the heart.

Actually, I said exactly nothing about the Holy Spirit. Do you know for a certainty that this person does not have the Holy Spirit? That is not something that either of us can claim nor can we claim to know what God is doing in the heart.

I don't apologize if this offends you and don't take offense that you tried to insult me. I can handle that.

No insult was offered nor was any taken.

 

[FireDragon76]

I love that you want to make it personal. But, I don't. You claimed something. I simply declared you are missing something about the Christian faith if you think a hindu can be more Christlike without the Holy Spirit. In essence, you have declared that faith in Jesus and having the Holy Spirit isn't critical; because what you can see on the surface is more important than what God is doing in the heart.

This is strange because usually American evangelicals argue that fruit is what marks one out as a real Christian.

I don't necessarily agree with Jack's point (if I even fully understand it), but I just thought it was necessary to point that out.

 

[JackRT]

This is strange because usually American evangelicals argue that fruit is what marks one out as a real Christian.

I don't necessarily agree with Jack's point (if I even fully understand it), but I just thought it was necessary to point that out.

Sometimes, I don't agree with my own points but sometimes they are points that need to be made.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Well, actually you did make it personal by claiming something about me that is not in evidence. Moreover, I did not make a claim, I made an observation.



Actually, I said exactly nothing about the Holy Spirit. Do you know for a certainty that this person does not have the Holy Spirit? That is not something that either of us can claim nor can we claim to know what God is doing in the heart.



No insult was offered nor was any taken.

Okay. Going back to your original post, you said that a hindu was the most Christlike person you have seen. Then in the message you just sent, you questioned how I could know for certainty that this person doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

So again, you negate what Jesus said: "If you love Me, keep My commandments, and I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever--even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because they see Him not, neither know Him, but you know Him, for He dwells with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:16-7).

So, let's just stick to the #1: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength." How is a hindu not practicing idolatry? How is a hindu loving a LORD that s/he doesn't know? Isn't a hindu part of "the world"? Are you calling Jesus a liar?

Are you suggesting that one is given the Holy Spirit before being born again? That certainly isn't what Jesus said. In fact, in John 3 discussion with Nicodemus (John 3:5-6), "to be born of the Spirit" appears to be the very definition of being born again, according to Jesus. So can your belief that a practicing hindu can have the Holy Spirit be correct? Can your belief that a practicing hindu can be more Christlike (from God's perspective--which in reality is all that really matters) than one whom God chooses and whom God invests His Holy Spirit into be correct or even consistent with true Christian beliefs? You make the value of Jesus' death void and the value of the Holy Spirit insignificant. I wouldn't want to answer to God for that one.

You may want to revisit how you judge what is Christlike and what is not and stop judging using the world's standard of judgment.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

This is strange because usually American evangelicals argue that fruit is what marks one out as a real Christian.

I don't necessarily agree with Jack's point (if I even fully understand it), but I just thought it was necessary to point that out.

I understand. And Jesus talked about fruit. But, Jesus also talked about people not seeing what you do. Remember, He talked about that with regards to giving alms to the poor and with regards to when you pray. (Matthew 6:1-6) Those are just two examples. So, if someone is really walking with God, you will see some outward fruit (if you see enough of their life), but it should be the tip of the iceberg of what they are really doing before God. And, then there is the fruit of the Spirit, and individual differences, and the process vs the immediate. I have yet to meet anyone who was born again and everything they did manifested all the fruit of the Spirit out of the gates. I have said this before, but if Jesus was held to the standards that people hold Christians to today, He would be rejected all over again. Self-control? He turned over the money tables and went off on the pharisees. Love? He pronounced woes to whole cities for not repenting when they saw His miracles. And after helping people told them to go and sin no more lest a worse thing happen to them. Gentleness/Kindness? "Get behind me satan!" being said to Peter. And the list could go on.

If we look at the other gifts, you probably already know what I'm going to say. Many people--who consider themselves Christians--have declared people who lay hands on the sick and watch them get healed as "of the devil"--just like they did Jesus; so what makes you think they would accept Jesus today? Some will claim they would never say that; but look on the web and read the books for how the gifts have supposedly ceased to be given. So, if they hold that belief and someone is practicing them, what are they saying? With tongues, they will come out and say they think it is "of the devil."

It was like Jesus quoted Abraham as saying in the Luke 16 picture of after-death and before-judgment: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31) Today, we have what Jesus left us, yet at least one professing christian thinks he knows an unbeliever who is more Christlike that any genuine Christian he has ever met--and that without the rebirth and necessarily also then without the Holy Spirit. Yet, Jesus said that the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest in this world (Matt 11:11)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Jesus shaking things up is not a commandment to you to go around judging other people and casting aspersions about them. He specifically tells you not to judge people, yet apparently you just ignore that part? He specifically tells you to love everyone like they were your own brother, and do you do that? He goes on and on and on about how love and compassion and forgiveness are at the root of everything, yet you’d rather focus on division and sowing discord? Are you trying to follow Jesus or be Jesus?

So, again, let me get this straight:

you, as an atheist (meaning you don't believe in God nor obviously the Son of God, nor the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture):
(1) think you are well-positioned (and even better-positioned) to talk about Jesus as if you know Him and what He stands for (despite the fact that you reject the concept of God and Jesus said He was the Son of God) than a born-again Christian--the type of person that Jesus said abides in Him and would know the Truth?
(2) You think this simply because you picked up The Book that you don't even accept as a genuine history book (because you don't believe what the Bible says about God and His Son)? And,
(3) You think you can understand it without the Holy Spirit's help (because He is only given to those born again)--to judge Christians?
(4) And, you think--while you are calling God a liar--that, in God's sight (which is quite frankly the only "sight" that matters), your judgment looks anything more than blatantly ignorant?

If I didn't agree with God on your blatant ignorance, I might actually find it hysterical. Maybe you should spend your time really trying to find God rather than getting on a website to talk about things you know nothing about. God promises that if someone diligently seeks Him that He will be found. Your time is better spent doing that. If you will do that, may God bless it. Search for the real Jesus that you don't think I'm like. Its a better use of your time and will pay much better and more pleasant eternal dividends.

 

[Kentonio]

So, again, let me get this straight:

you, as an atheist (meaning you don't believe in God nor obviously the Son of God, nor the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture):
(1) think you are well-positioned (and even better-positioned) to talk about Jesus as if you know Him and what He stands for (despite the fact that you reject the concept of God and Jesus said He was the Son of God) than a born-again Christian--the type of person that Jesus said abides in Him and would know the Truth?
(2) You think this simply because you picked up The Book that you don't even accept as a genuine history book (because you don't believe what the Bible says about God and His Son)? And,
(3) You think you can understand it without the Holy Spirit's help (because He is only given to those born again)--to judge Christians?
(4) And, you think--while you are calling God a liar--that, in God's sight (which is quite frankly the only "sight" that matters), your judgment looks anything more than blatantly ignorant?

If I didn't agree with God on your blatant ignorance, I might actually find it hysterical. Maybe you should spend your time really trying to find God rather than getting on a website to talk about things you know nothing about. God promises that if someone diligently seeks Him that He will be found. Your time is better spent doing that. If you will do that, may God bless it. Search for the real Jesus that you don't think I'm like. Its a better use of your time and will pay much better and more pleasant eternal dividends.

Yes, having eyes and a brain (that according to you, god gave me) gives me just as much capability to read and understand a written narrative as you have. What do I see in the New Testament of the Bible? I see a central character who reinforces over and over and over again that love, humility, compassion, acceptance of others and tolerance are the only route to god.

Why don’t I see any of those attributes when I read the posts of a born again Christian who instead drips anger, contempt and self-perceived superiority with every word? It’s noticeable that I haven’t attacked Christinity in any way in this thread, merely questioned why the behavior of some believers seems so wildly out of sync with the book they claim to follow. I certainly didn’t single out any individual or sect that should have caused you to feel I was talking about you. Yet despite this you’ve spoken to me purely with hostility and contempt. Can you quote me the section of the Bible where Jesus said that was acceptable behavior please?

 

[FireDragon76]

At least according to the Lutheran approach, being a Christian doesn't give us a particularly privileged perspective on what it means to live a good life. It is not surprising at all that a Christian could find something admirable about a Hindu.

But then again, many evangelicals in the US make the opinio legis, Law, the rule for their faith. On the contrary, having "good moral values" has never been the sine qua none of Christian faith. Christianity, as a religion, is ultimately about faith in a person, not the kind of lifestyle one lives.

 

[Dave-W]

Christianity, as a religion, is ultimately about faith in a person, not the kind of lifestyle one lives.

That seriously flies in the face of what Paul wrote and our Lord taught about holy living.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Yes, having eyes and a brain (that according to you, god gave me) gives me just as much capability to read and understand a written narrative as you have. What do I see in the New Testament of the Bible? I see a central character who reinforces over and over and over again that love, humility, compassion, acceptance of others and tolerance are the only route to god.

Why don’t I see any of those attributes when I read the posts of a born again Christian who instead drips anger, contempt and self-perceived superiority with every word? It’s noticeable that I haven’t attacked Christinity in any way in this thread, merely questioned why the behavior of some believers seems so wildly out of sync with the book they claim to follow. I certainly didn’t single out any individual or sect that should have caused you to feel I was talking about you. Yet despite this you’ve spoken to me purely with hostility and contempt. Can you quote me the section of the Bible where Jesus said that was acceptable behavior please?

This is typical behavior. First, try to attack. Then, come back as if you are mortally wounded. I'm still confused on why you as a professed atheist feel like it is your place to be critical of any group of Christians when you don't believe and don't have a relationship with God. You can call that hostility and contempt; but I'm not the one who posted the original question.

In every example in the Scriptures, I see people standing their ground for what they believe. If you think I have been hostile and filled with contempt, what about the Jesus turning over the money-changers tables? What about Jesus declaring woes on that pharisees? What about Jesus telling Peter "get behind me satan!" How about what Jesus said in Rev 2 & 3 to the churches? How about Stephen in Acts 6: "you stiffnecked and uncircumsized in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost..." Paul called Peter out in front of all the believers (Galatians 2). I would be happy to find things Paul said as well. All were concerned about the false impacted the body. My same concern.

Jesus said those who do the will of the Father would know His doctrine. You aren't doing the will of the Father, so how can you know it?

 

[FireDragon76]

That seriously flies in the face of what Paul wrote and our Lord taught about holy living.

I don't think morality necessarily is exclusive to Christians, that was my point.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I don't think morality necessarily is exclusive to Christians, that was my point.

I completely agree that morality is not exclusive to Christians. I would argue that everyone has morality--even those we may consider to be amoral people. But I also said a Christian should not allow themselves to be manipulated by a non-Christian's judgment of them.

I wish the Christian church still had a central leadership that wasn't political; but was focused on God--like in Acts. But, we don't. That was given away before the first church split when they sold out to rome. I have to believe God allowed that for a greater purpose.

 

[Kentonio]

This is typical behavior. First, try to attack. Then, come back as if you are mortally wounded. I'm still confused on why you as a professed atheist feel like it is your place to be critical of any group of Christians when you don't believe and don't have a relationship with God. You can call that hostility and contempt; but I'm not the one who posted the original question.

In every example in the Scriptures, I see people standing their ground for what they believe. If you think I have been hostile and filled with contempt, what about the Jesus turning over the money-changers tables? What about Jesus declaring woes on that pharisees? What about Jesus telling Peter "get behind me satan!" How about what Jesus said in Rev 2 & 3 to the churches? How about Stephen in Acts 6: "you stiffnecked and uncircumsized in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost..." Paul called Peter out in front of all the believers (Galatians 2). I would be happy to find things Paul said as well. All were concerned about the false impacted the body. My same concern.

Jesus said those who do the will of the Father would know His doctrine. You aren't doing the will of the Father, so how can you know it?

And yet again, you claim to be following the example of Jesus and the disciples when you seek conflict, yet completely ignore their constant insistance on humility, compassion, tolerance and love. Perhaps if you spent more time listening to them and less time trying to imitate their achievements, you would reflect their message more appropriately.