Why don't I see love from many American Christians?

[Kentonio]

I consider it a luxury myself, one that i intend to continue to refuse (though had a lower hernia for some years, and a dislocated should, both of which healed fine, thanks be to God, and and severe knee injury playing soccer, but mostly good now).

Why on earth would you want to suffer with problems that easily accessible and low priced healthcare could resolve quickly and easily? Being healthy and well is not a luxury, its a basic requirement to live a productive and happy life!

 

[DogmaHunter]

Again, you are mistaking correlation as causation.

No, I'm just replying to your claim:

It can use America as an example of negative relation of religion and societal health, but the decline in that corresponds to the decline in the Christian character of it.

You're the one who's asserting causation. You're the one that says that the decline of societal health corresponds to the decline in the christian character of it. Unless I misunderstood your point...

But if I didn't, then it should follow that the least religious countries should be the worst of.

I'm not asserting a causal relationship. But I might be asserting the inverse causal relationship, as in: clearly, higher religiosity levels do not result in better societies, since there is a negative corrolation. That doesn't mean that religion is what causes societies to be worse off... but it does definatly mean that being more religious is not going to result in better socieities.

And nevertheless, the negative corrolation has to have some explanation as well. Whatever that explanation is, religion will not come out looking good.
Clearly societal health and religiosity levels are somehow related.

There are many factors that must be considered as said, from the character of the culture (and its historical influences) to its geography to its demographic purity. And as countries like Sweden loses even the latter look for its "societal health" to decline (meanwhile Nordic countries are said to be more hostile towards immigration than most other world-leading economies). Nor can you lump all religions and religious countries together. Of course, if atheism is good for a country than we have the record of state atheism.

There's no such thing as "state atheism".
There is such a thing as radical communists banning religions (for political purposes). But there is no such thing as "state atheism".

It is your logic that does not add up, your comparison is specious for the aforementioned reasons, while as regards correlation, the decline in religion in America in both quantity and quality does correspond to the increase in immorality and decrease in societal health.

I can only repeat myself. Even if I go a head and accept that the decline of societal health in the US is the result of a decline in religion... despite this decline, the US is still by far the most religious country of the secular west.
If the decline of societal health of the US is related to a decline in religion, then it follows that the more decline of religion, the worse the societal health will get.

But what we actually see, is the exact opposite: the better of a nation is, the least religious it seems to be.

So what you are claiming here, simply is not supported by the actual data.

And in another period,

The sects that exist in the United States are innumerable. They all differ in respect to the worship which is due to the Creator; but they all agree in respect to the duties which are due from man to man. Each sect adores the Deity in its own peculiar manner, but all sects preach the same moral law in the name of God...

Aside from the moral and ethical splits regarding secular/humanistic values, freedom from religion, homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, (anti-)semitism,...

Moreover, all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same...

Except on issues like secular/humanistic values, freedom from religion, homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, (anti-)semitism,...

There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor...

I'm sorry, but you lost that title a while ago.
The US is anything but "enlightened" these days as it harbors the largest portion of science deniers in the west. I think that the only place where you'll find more science deniers is in the tribal regions of countries like pakistan and afghanistan.

As it stands today, half of doctorate students in the US are all foreigners with an H1B, because there simply aren't enough Americans qualified for those courses.

The US is rapidly losing its superpower status as a direct result. 30 years ago, it would have been unthinkable that China was catching up, and will eventually surpass, the US technologically. It would have been equally unthinkable that the largest particle accelerator (the LHC) would be found anywhere but in the US. In the 80s, there were plans to build one (in texas, if memory serves me right - could be mistaken). This accelerator would have been even bigger then the one in switserland. US scientists would have found the higgs boson decades ago. But the project was canceled. The budgets were cut. Just like now, the budgets for Nasa's climate research have been cut. That research will be transfered to Europe now.

In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country. ( Alexis de Tocqueville (1805—1859, French political thinker and historian; Democracy in America, [New York: A. S. Barnes & Co., 1851), pp. 331, 332, 335, 336-7, 337; Tocqueville: Book I Chapter 17)

In reality, fundamentalist religion has only become increasingly more popular in the US.
Today, it is so bad that it is even unthinkable to be able to run for any kind of important public office while being an outspoken atheist. This is well known.
The "in god we trust" bit on your money and the "one nation under god" thingy, is also something relatively recent.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Why on earth would you want to suffer with problems that easily accessible and low priced healthcare could resolve quickly and easily? Being healthy and well is not a luxury, its a basic requirement to live a productive and happy life!

One reason is that since by choice, having left everything to serve the Lord without pay or solicitation in 1986, then i have not paid into the system or any insurance, and thus I should not require others to pay for my heath care. Another reason is that there was no real need for medical help in my case, as God healed my hernia thru the prayer of others, enabling me to shovel large heaps of snow, carry heavy washing machine or refers etc. (at 5'5'') up or down stairs (with another helping), and other things i would have had to avoid. And the visibly dislocated shoulder (hit the ground suddenly at about 25mph in bicycle accident) slowly returned to normal, and the knee (most recent) is usually OK running and racing. I have become very sick with the flu a couple times, but recovered, thanks be to God.

My teeth are what need attention, like removal and dentures, more for appearance, but it s something i can live with at age 65. The main thing is that I be able to serve God and help people, both physically and spiritually, and I give God all the glory for any ability, motivation and enablement to do so, though i could have done more.

I do not support increased dependence upon the gov. if it can be avoided, but an area i really support more gov. help would be victims in accidents. A friend in another city was hit by a drunk in the 90's and left paralyzed from the neck down, though with some use of his hands. He likes his independence, (and never tell him he cannot carry all that in his wheelchair), but for years the PCA help has been very unreliable. Insurance pays 14.00 an hour for the PCA work most people avoid, and I know why, and will only pay for 2 hours of the overnight (he is sppsd to be turned twice to prevent the reoccurring bed sores). If he lived close by i myself could do more.

Here in America we do not appreciate what we have, and can lose, as complaining more prevails over expression of thanks.

 

[DogmaHunter]

One reason is that since by choice, having left everything to serve the Lord without pay in 1986, then i have not paid into the system or any insurance, and thus I should not require others to pay for my heath care. Another reason is that there was no real need for medical help in my case, as God healed my hernia thru the prayer of others, enabling me to shovel large heaps of snow, carry heavy washing machine or refers etc.

Ha, there you go. I guess you are unto something.

I propose we fire all doctors, and convert hospitals into churches.
From now on, we'll all just pray ourselves to health.

Take that, pharma industry!

 

[Kentonio]

One reason is that since by choice, having left everything to serve the Lord without pay in 1986, then i have not paid into the system or any insurance, and thus I should not require others to pay for my heath care. Another reason is that there was no real need for medical help in my case, as God healed my hernia thru the prayer of others, enabling me to shovel large heaps of snow, carry heavy washing machine or refers etc. (at 5'5'') up or down stairs (with another helping), and other things i would have had to avoid. And the visibly dislocated shoulder (hit the ground suddenly at about 25mph in bicycle accident) slowly returned to normal, and the knee (most recent) is usually OK running and racing. I have become very sick with the flu a couple times, but recovered, thanks be to God.

My teeth are what need attention, like removal and dentures, more for appearance, but it s something i can live with at age 65. The main thing is that I be able to serve God and help people, both physically and spiritually, and I give God all the glory for any ability, motivation and enablement to do so, though i could have done more.

I do not support increased dependence upon the gov. if it can be avoided, but an area i really support more gov. help would be victims in accidents. A friend in another city was hit by a drunk in the 90's and left paralyzed from the neck down, though with some use of his hands. He likes his independence, (and never tell him he cannot carry all that in his wheelchair), but for years the PCA help has been very unreliable. Insurance pays 14.00 an hour for the PCA work most people avoid, and I know why, and will only pay for 2 hours of the overnight (he is sppsd to be turned twice to prevent the reoccurring bed sores). If he lived close by i myself could do more.

Here in America we do not appreciate what we have, and can lose, as complaining more prevails over expression of thanks.

This is something I do not and can not understand in any way. The idea of people feeling they should have to suffer through easily treatable ailments is completely bizarre to me. Why would your god want you to suffer pain when there are perfectly good doctors who could cure you quickly and easily? Did he not create doctors and healing? Did he tell you directly that you should not use these creations and that you deserved to suffer instead?

 

[PeaceByJesus]

This is something I do not and can not understand in any way.
The idea of people feeling they should have to suffer through easily treatable ailments is completely bizarre to me.

I explained to you why, with reason #1 being sufficient, which is I do not want to burden others with the cost resulting from my choices. I left my job as a truck driver/delivery person at a dairy to serve the Lord full time, without pay or solicitation, and while I have many stories of Gods manifest providential care, this does not mean i oppose medical treatment. But it means since not having medical insurance was my choice, then i do not feel I should make others pay for care for me who otherwise would not.

It is one thing for some persons in a community to choose to support someone doing a work they believe in and want to see continued, and it is another to require all to do so, as was the case with a a state church (which paradoxically, is the case in secularized Denmark an Norway, mostly in mere formality).

At age 65 I could use Medicare, which I do not know much about, but have no intent to do so if it is at the expense of others, versus money i put into it while working for about 20 years.

Why would your god want you to suffer pain when there are perfectly good doctors who could cure you quickly and easily?.

I know of no suffering that could have been alleviated in my cases by doctors curing me quickly and easily versus the route I took. The hernia (received after my delivery days when i lifted a log of hickory wood the wrong way, as if it was pine) did not usually really bother me though I had to be careful what and how i lifted anything much over 25lbs or so, and would have meant taking time out of ministry. So God took care of it without missing anything. And i need and want to keep ministering in the area God would have me, and my own needs have not prevented that, thank God.

And there is not much a doc could so with the dislocated (visibly moved back) shoulder an mild concussion or the knee injury, except give me some meds, which i really did not need. And even i was shot or something, I would rather try to takes the bullet out and stop infection myself. Prayerfully.

Did he not create doctors and healing?

Yes, and I thank God for them, as they have their place, and i do not tell people they should never go to them, while i should have the freedom not to.

Did he tell you directly that you should not use these creations and that you deserved to suffer instead?

No, and no, and i never inferred such. After all, many missionaries works as doctors themselves. But we should seek the Lord first, as Scripture teaches.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Ha, there you go. I guess you are unto something.
I propose we fire all doctors, and convert hospitals into churches.
From now on, we'll all just pray ourselves to health.
Take that, pharma industry!

That is a false, either/or unwarranted conclusion since i never said or inferred it was either living as I choose to do or using doctors (any more than not using mechanics), not did i say i could not use doctors. I actually said I went for a physical, and forgot that about 1990 a friend in church insisted I go to a eye doctor who took a bit of rusty metal (exhaust system) of my eye.

What i was doing was responding to the question "would you want to suffer with problems that easily accessible and low priced healthcare could resolve quickly and easily?." and thus my response pertains to me, while I expressed I would like to see the gov. help a friend of mine more.

If you looked at the context of replies then you might not overreact and jump to erroneous conclusions.

 

[Kentonio]

I explained to you why, with reason #1 being sufficient, which is I do not want to burden others with the cost resulting from my choices. I left my job as a truck driver/delivery person at a dairy to serve the Lord full time, without pay or solicitation, and while I have many stories of Gods manifest providential care, this does not mean i oppose medical treatment. But it means since not having medical insurance was my choice, then i do not feel I should make others pay for care for me who otherwise would not.

At age 65 I could use Medicare, which I do not know much about, but have no intent to do so if it is at the expense of others, versus money i put into it while working for about 20 years.

I know of no suffering that could have been alleviated in my cases by doctors curing me quickly and easily versus the route I took. The hernia (received after my delivery days when i lifted a log of hickory wood the wrong way, as if it was pine) did not usually really bother me though I had to be careful what and how i lifted anything much over 25lbs or so, and would have meant taking time out of ministry. So God took care of it without missing anything. And i need and want to keep ministering in the area God would have me, and my own needs have not prevented that, thank God.

And there is not much a doc could so with the dislocated (visibly moved back) shoulder an mild concussion or the knee injury, except give me some meds, which i really did not need. And even i was shot or something, I would rather try to takes the bullet out and stop infection myself. Prayerfully.

Exactly, as an American you consider healthcare in terms of the outrageous costs you are charged. How much do you really think it costs in real terms for a doctor to reset a dislocated shoulder? Or the medicine to help you with the symptoms of flu? Or even the minor procedure to help your hernia? You say you know of no medical procedure that would have reduced your suffering, did you ask a doctor? Or just assume you knew as much as them?

As for money, these are not huge costs that you're inflicting on others, these are trivial sums that you would have more than paid for in taxes before you gave up working.

What's more, even if you'd never worked a day in your life it is still obscene that you should have to suffer through constant pain as a result. In Europe that would be considered an abomination.

Yes, and I thank God for them, as they have their place, and i do not tell people they should never go to them, while i should have the freedom not to.

No, and no, and i never inferred such. After all, many missionaries works as doctors themselves. But we should seek the Lord first, as Scripture teaches.

So god creates doctors and healthcare and medicine and gifts them to the world, and you consider yourself above those gifts and instead choose the pride of suffering?

You talk about scriptures, so should we just ignore what has happened in the last two thousand years, as if god had no part in the creations or changes since? This reminds me of the story of the drowning man.

"A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Exactly, as an American you consider healthcare in terms of the outrageous costs you are charged. How much do you really think it costs in real terms for a doctor to reset a dislocated shoulder? Or the medicine to help you with the symptoms of flu? Or even the minor procedure to help your hernia?

It costs quite a sum, since as with other occupations you are not simply paying for the actual labor, but for overhead, salary (100,000 and up), insurance, and in this case, the extensive expensive schooling (and debt).

I know of no suffering that could have been alleviated in my cases by doctors curing me quickly and easily versus the route I took.

You say you know of no medical procedure that would have reduced your suffering, did you ask a doctor? Or just assume you knew as much as them?

That is not what i said, which was a comparison, as explained.

As for money, these are not huge costs that you're inflicting on others, these are trivial sums that you would have more than paid for in taxes before you gave up working.

Since i paid none back then (unlike for SS) i do not see how i could have paid for such. Unless my taxes from the 60's to mid-80's paid for Medicare. And and now individual (Obamacare) health insurance premiums have increased 99% since 2013 and were 321.00 per month in 2016.

What's more, even if you'd never worked a day in your life it is still obscene that you should have to suffer through constant pain as a result. In Europe that would be considered an abomination.

That in Europe no wanting to burden others with costs due to my choices would be considered an abomination is an abomination. But neither was I suffering through constant pain without relief or healing.

So god creates doctors and healthcare and medicine and gifts them to the world, and you consider yourself above those gifts and instead choose the pride of suffering?

So now its "pride?" That is desperate and false, for instead it is based on principle of not requiring others to pay for the cost of my choices, and wanting to be where and be doing where the Lord would have me.

You talk about scriptures, so should we just ignore what has happened in the last two thousand years, as if god had no part in the creations or changes since?

Once again this is a false charge since I affirm God enabled the medical profession, if not sanctioning all that is done under the name.

This reminds me of the story of the drowning man. "A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."
To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"
To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

Cute and i heard it before, but it is a false analogy, for I accept help - if usually reluctantly - from others who volitionally, willingly offer it, as was the case in your story. But it is wrong for hikers to go hike a risky mountain trail under the premise that they are able to do so, but then expect rescuers to help them because they could not do what they wrongly presumed they could. Yes, they should be rescued, but they should not go out depending on rescue teams if turns out they were not as able as they thought.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Again, you don't know that. Again, you are just basing your knowledge on how you HEAR things are in the States. And no health care system is perfect, and you can blame the problems of the NHS all you want on "conservatives", but eventually you are going to have rationing. And here we see it. 9 week waits for surgeries, not enough GPs so people are going to the ER instead, and then waiting for hours and hours. The list of problems is just extreme.

Really, it's time you all stop boasting about the NHS--the issues and problems are all over our news here.

Just came across this relevant story of interest: Walmart steps up and into the health care fray

 

[ValorWoman4Jesus]

It's simplistic and mean-spirited commentary like this that's part of the problem.

I was going to stay quiet, but after seeing this I wanted to as a sincere Christian and follower of Christ, put in my two cents.

It really upsets me when Evangelical Christians frown upon and look down on those who are struggling or not doing as well as they could be. The playing field is uneven with lots of hurdles to finding work that pays a decent standard of living.
Our aim is the serve the Lord and have compassion on the less fortunate rather than the American dream. God blesses hard work and the bible condemns laziness. However, I believe struggling people particularly the working class are probably the hardest workers, yet they are wrongfully judged as lazy. It boils my blood when people are condemned for their demise when they have truly done their best. Higher education costs have risen exponentially. There are so many brilliant young people eager too learn and work in a rewarding trade if only they could afford college. I also despise some of the working conditions for Amazon shipping employees for example. Why aren't Christians fighting for them? People with wealth require being preached to about how they treat those who are working for them just as those without wealth need to be taught to respect authority and their employers. Kudos to those who have adhered to biblical money management principles and have been blessed with success. It is a gift from God to enjoy the fruit of your labor. I think those Christians who have had success in America and/or abroad should remember to take the log out of their eye before judging those who aren't as successful as them. The barriers to a living wage for the less fortunate doesn't seem to be a problem to Evangelical Christians and they therefore do not see it as an excuse. I think Christians, particularly well to do Christians should invest in the lives of young people and should also fight on behalf of mistreated workers. I am not asking that cashiers be promoted to brain surgeons, but I think the working class are not being treated with the dignity and respect they deserve. Those people who sincerely want to get out of poverty or aspire being in a higher paying career field, but are having trouble despite their best efforts should be respected and listened to, not judged. They need unconditional love, grace, and compassion with their story being heard. That will make them want to try harder. We should understand and care about their goals. We including myself need to provide educational and training programs that actually give people who are serious about improving their lives a hands up instead of dismissing them as lazy.

I feel misunderstood by a lot of Christians myself because of my issues. I know how it is to be poor, because I used to be there. I dug myself out of poverty and attended college on student loans. I worked hard to get to where I am at. I have a career job that I have had for 19 years that pays good money, but I can still feel the pinch of living in an American economy that is harder to survive in than it used to be. I also live in an expensive city. I still feel shame for not making as much as I could be. I know how people who are struggling are feeling. I am hurting too. I may not be poor, but I identify with those who are poor, hurting and downtrodden. They need compassionate help, not judgmental accusations or assassinations on their character. They need to know that they have value and that they matter. That will give them the hope to go on. I depend on God's grace every day to go on and look to Him for hope for a more promising future. That's what gets me by.

I feel that I cannot relate to Evangelicals nor feel that I can turn to them for even a listening ear, let alone help and guidance for my future, due to our differing beliefs. I used to think Evangelicals were my allies, but I learned the hard way that our beliefs are different sadly. This is also one of the reasons why I have stopped asking for prayer and support on this board a few years ago, alas. I am passionate about following the real Jesus who compassionately wants to help those who need it most. Only God can judge the heart.

 

[redleghunter]

I was going to stay quiet, but after seeing this I wanted to as a sincere Christian and follower of Christ, put in my two cents.

It really upsets me when Evangelical Christians frown upon and look down on those who are struggling or not doing as well as they could be. The playing field is uneven with lots of hurdles to finding work that pays a decent standard of living.
Our aim is the serve the Lord and have compassion on the less fortunate rather than the American dream. God blesses hard work and the bible condemns laziness. However, I believe struggling people particularly the working class are probably the hardest workers, yet they are wrongfully judged as lazy. It boils my blood when people are condemned for their demise when they have truly done their best. Higher education costs have risen exponentially. There are so many brilliant young people eager too learn and work in a rewarding trade if only they could afford college. I also despise some of the working conditions for Amazon shipping employees for example. Why aren't Christians fighting for them? People with wealth require being preached to about how they treat those who are working for them just as those without wealth need to be taught to respect authority and their employers. Kudos to those who have adhered to biblical money management principles and have been blessed with success. It is a gift from God to enjoy the fruit of your labor. I think those Christians who have had success in America and/or abroad should remember to take the log out of their eye before judging those who aren't as successful as them. The barriers to a living wage for the less fortunate doesn't seem to be a problem to Evangelical Christians and they therefore do not see it as an excuse. I think Christians, particularly well to do Christians should invest in the lives of young people and should also fight on behalf of mistreated workers. I am not asking that cashiers be promoted to brain surgeons, but I think the working class are not being treated with the dignity and respect they deserve. Those people who sincerely want to get out of poverty or aspire being in a higher paying career field, but are having trouble despite their best efforts should be respected and listened to, not judged. They need unconditional love, grace, and compassion with their story being heard. That will make them want to try harder. We should understand and care about their goals. We including myself need to provide educational and training programs that actually give people who are serious about improving their lives a hands up instead of dismissing them as lazy.

I feel misunderstood by a lot of Christians myself because of my issues. I know how it is to be poor, because I used to be there. I dug myself out of poverty and attended college on student loans. I worked hard to get to where I am at. I have a career job that I have had for 19 years that pays good money, but I can still feel the pinch of living in an American economy that is harder to survive in than it used to be. I also live in an expensive city. I still feel shame for not making as much as I could be. I know how people who are struggling are feeling. I am hurting too. I may not be poor, but I identify with those who are poor, hurting and downtrodden. They need compassionate help, not judgmental accusations or assassinations on their character. They need to know that they have value and that they matter. That will give them the hope to go on. I depend on God's grace every day to go on and look to Him for hope for a more promising future. That's what gets me by.

I feel that I cannot relate to Evangelicals nor feel that I can turn to them for even a listening ear, let alone help and guidance for my future, due to our differing beliefs. I used to think Evangelicals were my allies, but I learned the hard way that our beliefs are different sadly. This is also one of the reasons why I have stopped asking for prayer and support on this board a few years ago, alas. I am passionate about following the real Jesus who compassionately wants to help those who need it most. Only God can judge the heart.

Sometimes when we have loads of grievances we should start by examining ourselves.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If this is considered an offensive question, then please delete, but I keep being confused by the version of Christianity I see from many conservative Americans. Growing up in the UK, my experience of Christians was of loving, endlessly forgiving and gentle people who always seemed to be striving to achieve their own self-admittedly flawed version of the the message Jesus gave them. They didn't judge, they always forgave, and they were just basically better people than most of us. I couldn't be a Christian because I don't believe in god, but I always had huge respect for these gentle, meek people who embodied something I instinctively knew was beautiful. The level of commitment and sacrifice to something they felt was greater than them was truly awe inspiring, despite me not believing.

Then I see so many American 'evangelicals' or conservative Christians who seem to spent their lives judging others, attacking their perceived enemies and embodying a message that seems to revolve around a love of wealth, power and hostility towards those who are weak and needy. I don't get it. I thought the whole message of Jesus was that to embrace the weakest and most vulnerable was the closest path to god?

I've read the bible and it doesn't seem like a complex message. Turn the other cheek, embrace those in need and don't hold yourself above anyone, especially the most humble. Yet I see people quoting random passages and twisting them to somehow say its ok to support violence or war, aspire to prosperity and judge others for their sins rather than leave it to god. It confuses me.

Am I missing something? Is Jesus not a messenger of peace and humility and an advocate for the poor and needy? How did the message of a man who bathed lepers and said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" end up being used to advocate for wealth creation and for pastors to collect money to buy private jets while the poorest in society go homeless and hungry, or die from lack of healthcare?

How did the message of a man who said "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them" somehow end up being used to support gun ownership, a strong military and the use of violence against others?

Seriously, can someone explain this stuff to me please, because it leaves me dazed and confused.

I also am not crazy about the "name it and claim it" version of Christianity; but, I'm not happy with the dead version of Christianity, devoid of relationship, that makes it just another religion, either. I understand that won't compute for someone who doesn't have that relationship and therefore can't fathom such a thing.

What is sad to me is that dead self-deprecating religion seems to appear "good" to you, because you consider people who practice it as "better people" and yet don't want to be like them. So, why pick Christianity over any others? Or would you say the same to the less peaceful muslims, hindus and buddhists in contrast to the others?

I find it interesting that you don't believe in God, yet you think the examples you saw were "better people." Obviously, their example wasn't supernatural enough to make you question your stance as an atheist NOR motivating enough that you wanted to become "a better person" like them. It seems you define better as allowing people to run all over you, based on what you wrote. No wonder why you don't want to be like them. Maybe you are unreasonable, but if not, I think if you saw something or something happened to you that defied explanation, you might change your stance on the existence of God. Yet, according to God, we all have and are without excuse.

You quoted some passages by Jesus, BUT, Jesus said other things, as well.

For instance, Jesus said: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two, and two against three...." (Luke 12:51-2, Matt 10:34)

Jesus warned about the false being found among the real in the wheat and the tares parable (among others), but also specifically mentioned false prophets: (Matt 7:15, Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43). His immediate followers, including the one was killing Christians until Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus, also spoke about the false being among the real: (2 Tim 4:3-4,1 John 4:1-6, 1 Tim 6:3-5, Jude 1:4, 2 Pet 2:1, 2 Cor 11:13-15, 2 Tim 3:5, 13, 1 John 2:26-27). In Acts 20:29-31, Paul, while addressing the elders of Ephesus, warned very specifically of things that were coming.

Jesus said: "you are my friends, if you do whatever I command you." (John 15:14) "If a man loves Me, he will keep my words.... He that loves Me not keeps not my sayings...." (John 14:23-4) "As the Father loved me, so I have loved you; continue in My Love. If you keep my commandments, yo shall abide in my love....(John 15:9-10).

Jesus even asked if He would find faith when He returned (Luke 18:8) and warned that the love of many would wax cold, THEN Jesus said he that endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:12-13).

Just a few of the many things to think about. There are many more....

 

[A_Thinker]

Sometimes when we have loads of grievances we should start by examining ourselves.

Jesus had a number of grievances with the hypocrites of His day ...

Matthew 23

A Warning Against Hypocrisy
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant.12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Jesus had a number of grievances with the hypocrites of His day ...

Matthew 23

A Warning Against Hypocrisy
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant.12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Yes, and don't forget the woe to the cities who saw his miracles and did not repent.

 

[Ringo84]

Because many American Christians are more interested in political power than spreading the love of Jesus Christ and doing what the Bible admonishes us to do: feed the hungry, heal and minister to the sick, protect the vulnerable (such as immigrants), etc.
Ringo

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus had a number of grievances with the hypocrites of His day ...

Matthew 23

A Warning Against Hypocrisy
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant.12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

He is the Christ the Son of the Living God.

 

[Kentonio]

I also am not crazy about the "name it and claim it" version of Christianity; but, I'm not happy with the dead version of Christianity, devoid of relationship, that makes it just another religion, either. I understand that won't compute for someone who doesn't have that relationship and therefore can't fathom such a thing.

What is sad to me is that dead self-deprecating religion seems to appear "good" to you, because you consider people who practice it as "better people" and yet don't want to be like them. So, why pick Christianity over any others? Or would you say the same to the less peaceful muslims, hindus and buddhists in contrast to the others?

What gives you the right to call Anglicans version of Christianity 'dead'? Frankly as someone who has read the bible, I'd consider their kind, tolerant Christianity to be a lot closer to the teaching of Jesus than I would the aggressive Christian groups that are sadly too common in the US, with their focus on judging others and casting stones.

I find it interesting that you don't believe in God, yet you think the examples you saw were "better people." Obviously, their example wasn't supernatural enough to make you question your stance as an atheist NOR motivating enough that you wanted to become "a better person" like them. It seems you define better as allowing people to run all over you, based on what you wrote. No wonder why you don't want to be like them. Maybe you are unreasonable, but if not, I think if you saw something or something happened to you that defied explanation, you might change your stance on the existence of God. Yet, according to God, we all have and are without excuse.

What a lot of presumptous nonsense. I think they are 'better people' because they embody traits that everyone should admire and laud, like compassion, forgiveness, understanding and love for others. The fact you think that is 'allowing people to run all over you' means that you don't represent any form of Christianity that I recognize from the bible. These are people that I'd like to live more like, despite not being religious myself. If Jesus did come to spread a gospel, then it seem far more likely to me that his message would be one that people genuinely feel a desire to emulate, not one that spreads hate and causes divisions.

You quoted some passages by Jesus, BUT, Jesus said other things, as well.

For instance, Jesus said: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two, and two against three...." (Luke 12:51-2, Matt 10:34)

Jesus warned about the false being found among the real in the wheat and the tares parable (among others), but also specifically mentioned false prophets: (Matt 7:15, Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43). His immediate followers, including the one was killing Christians until Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus, also spoke about the false being among the real: (2 Tim 4:3-4,1 John 4:1-6, 1 Tim 6:3-5, Jude 1:4, 2 Pet 2:1, 2 Cor 11:13-15, 2 Tim 3:5, 13, 1 John 2:26-27). In Acts 20:29-31, Paul, while addressing the elders of Ephesus, warned very specifically of things that were coming.

Jesus said: "you are my friends, if you do whatever I command you." (John 15:14) "If a man loves Me, he will keep my words.... He that loves Me not keeps not my sayings...." (John 14:23-4) "As the Father loved me, so I have loved you; continue in My Love. If you keep my commandments, yo shall abide in my love....(John 15:9-10).

Jesus even asked if He would find faith when He returned (Luke 18:8) and warned that the love of many would wax cold, THEN Jesus said he that endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:12-13).

Just a few of the many things to think about. There are many more....

Yes, what you're doing here is something I see over and over and over. Christians chaining together biblical quotes of their choosing to create the narrative they wish to push. I could equally chain together a set of bible quotes that gave a wildly different impression to the one you just tried to create. If the bible has meaning then it has meaning as a full document and the common themes that run through it are what is important, not cherry picked quotes taken out of context. The entire story of Jesus life is a story of forgiveness, compassion and love. Yet I still see Americans insisting on quoting a single line about swords as if this completely undermines the entire book where Jesus tells his followers not to use violence.

The very first part of the bible tells you not to judge lest you be judged in turn. Yet you just described a Christian religion of millions as 'dead'. You're kind of making my point for me here.

 

[jazzflower92]

What gives you the right to call Anglicans version of Christianity 'dead'? Frankly as someone who has read the bible, I'd consider their kind, tolerant Christianity to be a lot closer to the teaching of Jesus than I would the aggressive Christian groups that are sadly too common in the US, with their focus on judging others and casting stones.



What a lot of presumptous nonsense. I think they are 'better people' because they embody traits that everyone should admire and laud, like compassion, forgiveness, understanding and love for others. The fact you think that is 'allowing people to run all over you' means that you don't represent any form of Christianity that I recognize from the bible. These are people that I'd like to live more like, despite not being religious myself. If Jesus did come to spread a gospel, then it seem far more likely to me that his message would be one that people genuinely feel a desire to emulate, not one that spreads hate and causes divisions.



Yes, what you're doing here is something I see over and over and over. Christians chaining together biblical quotes of their choosing to create the narrative they wish to push. I could equally chain together a set of bible quotes that gave a wildly different impression to the one you just tried to create. If the bible has meaning then it has meaning as a full document and the common themes that run through it are what is important, not cherry picked quotes taken out of context. The entire story of Jesus life is a story of forgiveness, compassion and love. Yet I still see Americans insisting on quoting a single line about swords as if this completely undermines the entire book where Jesus tells his followers not to use violence.

The very first part of the bible tells you not to judge lest you be judged in turn. Yet you just described a Christian religion of millions as 'dead'. You're kind of making my point for me here.

In my opinion, the so-called tolerant Christianity is just throwing stones at people you dislike.

 

[A_Thinker]

The US is rapidly losing its superpower status as a direct result. 30 years ago, it would have been unthinkable that China was catching up, and will eventually surpass, the US technologically. It would have been equally unthinkable that the largest particle accelerator (the LHC) would be found anywhere but in the US. In the 80s, there were plans to build one (in texas, if memory serves me right - could be mistaken). This accelerator would have been even bigger then the one in switserland. US scientists would have found the higgs boson decades ago. But the project was canceled. The budgets were cut. Just like now, the budgets for Nasa's climate research have been cut. That research will be transfered to Europe now.

Apart from the rest of your comment ... I think that the U.S. has been expending money on defending/policing the rest of the free world. The U.S. will have to pull back from some of this ... to free funds for such scientific projects as these ...