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Featured Why does Peter use Greek Mythology

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    2 Peter 2:4 reads "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment"

    "hell" is not a Greek or Hebrew word. In Biblical Hebrew there really is no such place and the only word used is "Sheol" which is an indiscriminate place for the dead where all must pass through. In Biblical Greek we have Hades (most common), Gehenna and Tartarus. The latter is the one used in this 2 Peter text and it is the only time in scripture it is used.

    Tartarus is Greek mythology of a place where the Titans are locked up and it seems Peter describes the exact same place he just swaps out the word "titan" with "angel". It seems obvious to me what Peter is actually doing is a form of contextualization using a widely known myth to help explain the fate of these Angels.

    What insight do we actually gain from this? The overlap with the Greek mythology makes it suspicious and if it is in fact an attempt of contextualization on Peter's part it leaves us with very little knowledge. If you cancel out the overlap what is left is basically there are fallen Angels that are bound in a form punishment until Judgment. I don't actually see this text as confirming layers of Hell or physical chains that have bound these Angels. In fact I see this verse has encouraged a very mythical perception of Hell that have led to works like Dante's Inferno where it describes Tartarus as the 9th and final circle of Hell where Genesis giants are bound.

    Hell actually is not all that clear in scripture as to what it is except for that it is an undesired place of the death reserved for the unrighteous that we can be saved from. I think the Biblical images used are there as helpers to understand its severity not as literal descriptors and "Tartarus" as an example of this happening.
     
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  2. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I believe Greeks copied the idea from Jews. :)
     
  3. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Of course you do. How else will you rescue your Bible from the idea that it isn't all that special?
     
  4. Rubiks

    Rubiks armchair linguist

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    ...because those are the closest words in Greek which represent the biblical afterlife?
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    do you have sources?

    Tartarus first appears in greek mythology 700 BC appearing both in the Theogony and the Iliad. in Jewish circles Tartarus appears in the Septuagint and in the book of Enoch which would be around the 3rd century BC (Septuagint) and Enoch as far back as the 5th century BC.

    The claim is that it appears in the Septuagint of Job and after some digging I found it in Job 40:20 which uses the same verb in 2 Pe 2:4 which isn't Tartarus the noun but "cast down to Tartarus". The text is talking about the Behemoth and the English says "For the mountains yield food for him where all the wild beasts play." I checked out a English translation of the Septuagint and reads "And when he has gone up to a steep mountain, he causes joy to the quadrupeds in the deep" this again may be playing off some mythology for the Septuagint and some sort of inside information from the Jewish translators. I also found the word (noun Tartarus) in Pro 30:16 where or course the Hebrew is Sheol. In all 2 fairly obscure references and I see nothing in the Septuagint that adds to the meaning from a Judeo-Christian understanding of Tartarus.

    The book of Enoch speak of Tartarus as this place where the fallen Angels of Genesis who procreated with humans are bound. Enoch uses the word "tartarus" (20:3) as well as "deep abyss" or prison (ch 18, 54, 56, 69) where Angels are bound by heavy chains. Enoch sort of bounces around from Sheol to an abyss to a prison to darkness and even tartarus and this may be because of its fragmented copies its translated from. I don't have the patience to sift it all out but it seems it confirms at least that these Fallen Angels of Genesis are bound in chains there.

    Enoch is not part of the Jewish Canon but it is quoted in Jude and this may also be the source of Peter's knowledge of Tartarus as of course it lines up with what Peter is saying and it predates his thoughts on the subject but only as a pharaphased reference. Jude quotes Enoch (v14-16) and Jude also speaks of Angels being locked away in what is referenced as "gloomy darkness" (v6) but Jude does not use Tartarus. "darkness" is a common description of this "abyss" place in Enoch for judgement. Since Jude seems to be familiar with Enoch and describes a similar event as Peter does I would suggest their source is the same which is the book of Enoch but like Peter it is only a paraphrased reference

    I cannot say why Peter himself uses Tartarus but it does seem clear that his sources matches that of Jude which appears to be influenced by the book Enoch and in turn is influenced by Greek mythology. Perhaps I give Peter too much credit when I say he is "contextualizing" Tartarus but I still don't see this word as giving any dimensions or knowledge to a physical description of Hell. Christian's don't like talking about how mythology may have influenced scripture but I think it is worth looking into as to why, in this case, early Christians looked to mythology to develop their understanding of the afterlife. In reality we do the same today as much of popular perception of Heaven and Hell are not developed by the Bible at all.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Sheol seems to be same as tartarus in the meaning of the word, by how it is described in OT. And the English word is grave, pit of destrction or even hell.

    And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
    Gen. 37:35

    For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    Deu. 32:22

    Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
    Job 38:17

    But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.
    Ps. 55:23

    And I believe the book of Job is older than some claim.
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Greek translations of Enoch also use Tartarus, and it's probable that the author of 2 Peter has this theme in mind; given that in Greek versions of Enoch the fallen angels are imprisoned in Tartarus (I suspect a Hellenistic influence here in Enoch, from the myth of the Titans and the Titan imprisonment in Tartarus). It's worth noting that Peter is very unlikely to have written 2 Peter, general scholarly consensus places 2 Peter sometime in the 2nd century; it's worth noting that while 1 Peter was widely accepted in the early Church, 2 Peter was Antilegomena, heavily disputed--the uncertainty of its Petrine authorship no doubt playing a role.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the OT concept of Sheol is not liken to tartarus or the book of Enoch. In the OT there is no Heaven or Hell it is only Sheol. It is a mysterious place of the dead that all pass through. Your examples alone show how varied its meaning are with Abraham identifying going down to Sheol in mourning, to it being a place of judgment, to a place of death and figuratively speaking for depression. It however is never revealed as a place where angels are imprisoned.

    Enoch presents Sheol in a very different way than the OT authors do and it is more liken to Greek Hades with its inherited mythology; Enoch has very clear ideas of what Sheol is where the OT authors presents Sheol as a mysterious place and unknown. For this reason it suggests a much later authorship than a pre-flood ancient text. The OT is pretty consistent with it's concept of Sheol and if Enoch's presentation of Sheol were correct it would be well ahead of its time if it was a pre-flood text. But if so then why didn't it influence OT concepts of Sheol? It is because it is a hellenistic pseudepigrapha text that claims it is pre-flood and written by Enoch.
     
  9. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    2 Peter/Jude influenced by Enoch which in turn is influenced by Greek Mythology. Did they know they were referencing a mythical influenced hellenstic text or did they do it in ignorance with the best intentions in mind? how do we understand these references?
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I don't know if it's possible to ascribe influence or ignorance; I think the authors of these works were working from within a set of ideas, or at least appropriated these ideas to say what they wanted to say. I would point out that both seem to be using these ideas not to speak of their inherent objective truthfulness so much as examples of warning against falling into heresy. Thus the proper reading of these texts should ultimately be what are they trying to tell their audience--what is their point?

    I don't think their point is that there is a Hellenistic Tartarus where fallen angels reside in any literal sense; but that falling away is a dangerous thing to be avoided. Their intent is pastoral, not cosmological.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  11. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I don’t see why it would have. Many OT books have more important things to say. Tartarus is not really something that is important be in books of OT.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    In the OT there is no heaven, hell, tartarus, hades, abyss, etc... there is just Sheol; a indiscriminate place of the dead that all pass through. Presented in the OT it is a very unknown and mysterious place. Had OT authors been exposed to the book of Enoch you would think their perspective of the afterlife would be more "Enochan" rather than a reflection of ignorance.
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    This seems to indicate that there was also other option:

    And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it.
    Ecc. 12:7
     
  14. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    only if we include extra-OT sources to it does this have meaning. Without the extra information it is vague and mysterious.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Interesting.
    There is also something similar to that shown in Revelation 20 concerning that.
    Is that also from Greek and/or Jewish mythology?

    Tit 1:14
    and not pay attention to Jewish myths/fables and commands of people who reject the truth.

    Revelation 20:2 question

    Revelation 20:
    1 And I saw a Messenger descending out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain upon the hand of him.
    2 And he seizes the Dragon, the serpent, the ancient one, who is a Devil, and [the] Satan/Adversary. And he binds him a thousand years.
    3 And he casts him into the abyss, and he locks and he seals over of him, that no he should still be deceiving the nations until should-be-being-finished/telesqh <5055> (5686) the thousand years. After these, it is binding him to be loosed him a little time
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    There are actually two literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23), and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of non-Christians go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus Christ's 1st coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

    After Jesus Christ fulfilled the Gospel by suffering and dying for our sins on the Cross, and rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), He went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the Gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there who had died in faith (Hebrews 11:13) up with Him when He ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient Christians go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

    At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all non-Christians of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46), and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

    Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Christians will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

    *******

    That brought to mind Job 33:22, where the original Hebrew word (H7845) translated as "the grave" can mean "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), as in the extremely-deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9-10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

    The Bottomless Pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the Bottomless Pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the 1st half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the Bottomless Pit to torment (but not kill) mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

    The Bottomless Pit could have a downward-winding spiral pathway like that in the Guggenheim Museum in New York City. But instead of artworks displayed on the outer wall of the pathway, there could be the graves/prison cells (1 Peter 3:19) of the conscious souls/spirits of the unsaved dead.

    Note that any parts of the book of Enoch truly written by Enoch would long predate Greek mythology. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC.

    Regarding heaven, there are actually three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2). And so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place. For Jesus Christ ascended there in His physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul the apostle said that he could have visited there in his mortal, physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their mortal, physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the future, Two Witnesses will be taken up there in their mortal, physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

    In the third heaven, there is currently a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a New Earth (a new surface of the earth), and a New Heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the New Earth, to live with Christians on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates, and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21), which Christians ascribe to heaven. So what Christians think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the New Earth.

    Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where obedient Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So obedient Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when obedient Christians go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

    The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole. Compare the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV. Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.
     
  17. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Yes. History proves it, and the Greeks copied and enlarged on every civilized culture they invaded.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Indeed - it is english.

    YLT
    4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

    Greeks had a great many words that they associated with their myths -- myths not taught in the Bible.

    Another great example is "propitiation" in Greek Mythology the peasants "propitiate" their angry gods with some animal sacrifice to appease them.
     
  19. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    First: Enoch revealed the places called hollows [Sheol] which were made for the departed souls of the Adam creation and for the the angels that sinned, and the disembodied offspring of them who were cast into that place [only ten percent of their total roam the earth until the day of judgement, doing their evil to the sons of Adam, according to the book of Jubilees] were -and are- held until the day of their judgment. The righteous were taken from there when the Atonement was fulfilled once, for all, and no longer go to that place which Enoch saw and which Jesus corroborated, as also the prophets of the OT also, just as Enoch had first revealed it.
    There was no Greek language until the tower of Babel, and the proto Hebrew [dubbed Edenic by Isaac Mozeson] was the one mother tongue. Any copies of translations of Enoch out of the one mother tongue into the few we have available to compare, are translations out of the mother tongue, come down to us through various tongues, and translated, as I said, to English.
    Enoch laid down God's foundational truth of the hollows in the belly of the earth, the Abyss of fire/ the kingdom of darkness/second death where the worm never dies: the body each of the wicked unrepentent rises in it's unchanged state, but will never die, and is called the never dying worm by Enoch and Jesus, because it will never be morphosed to the body made for the glory to indwell as sons of God.
    Abraham was born when Noah and Shem were yet alive, and he lived with them from age ten to the time of the fall of the tower of Babel, when he was age 49, and the confounding of the one mother tongue happened at that time. Abraham had his own copy of the book of Enoch, in proto-Hebrew, which he got from Noah, son of Methuselah, who got it from his father, Enoch.
    Methuselah died only one week before the flood. Shem outlived Abraham, and the Greeks were not yet anything but tribes of shepherds, from Japheth, and nothing more. The tribal descent of Israel is from Abraham, and they were founded in the promised land centuries before the descendant of Japheth, Alexandar, rose to power and began conquering the nations that had arisen since the tower's fall, and conquered Israel.
    It is historical fact that the Greeks had no history of their own. They had no "myths", no "culture", but took from the nations they conquered all that they later became famous for, but the histories were not theirs. They enlarged the stories of the titans/giants, and their offspring, getting much information about them from Israel, the Medes, the Persians and the Babylonians which they incorporated and adopted, and enlarged.
    The coined word, "Hades" is from Hebrew Qadesh [unclean holiness], transliterated to kadesh, and Kades, and to Hades.
    Jude says the Sodomite fornicators of the cities of the plains suffered the "example of the everlasting fires" as a warning...
    The warning is much less that the final everlasting fires, and the coined words, "sodomy, gonorrhea, and Hades" are from that judgement on those cities....warnings of the everlasting fire.
    Chapter 1 - Bible Study Tools
    Josephus: 1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

    3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

    4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

    5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.

    6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: CONCERNING WHOM WE HAVE ELSEWHERE GIVEN A MORE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT, FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO SEEK AFTER TRUTH. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  20. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Josephus was a hellenized Jew and he betrayed his people to become a Roman Citizen. He would have gravitated to a text like enoch and loved every part of it. His account does not help us establish when Enoch was written it only establishes that Josephus knew about it and liked it which is no surprise.

    In the end the greek mythology emerges about 700 BC and Enoch (oldest sources) is something like 200 BC which is the perfect sweet spot of hellenization. The greeks didn't have contact with the hebrews in 700 BC as it was before all the Alexander conquests which would have happened C 300 BC; at this time the greeks were limited to greece. I have no issue with the idea that the greeks were influenced by the Hebrew but the theory lacks a major piece of the puzzle which is the connection between the Hebrews and the Greeks (Tower of Babel is not a sufficient link). If the Greeks afterlife perspective was influenced it would have been from the Phoenicians not the Hebrews.
     
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