Why does God expect everyone to come to Him to be saved?

Lion King

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If someone is not in their right mind and refuses to eat because they think they are fat even thought they are fadding away to nothing, then I would certainly consider it love to force feed that person untill they came to their senses rather than just let them die.

Well, I'm not sure forcing us to love Him, is something the LORD consider as love.^_^
 
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Publius

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I've been struggling with a certain question lately and have not been able to find, or think of, a single explanation for why God expects everyone to admit His existence (I assume that to admit that He is the Lord, you're going to then submit to him).

The issue I have is that if you look at the Bible and its contents from a rational standpoint, there is no reason to believe it. Yes, we know that there was a guy who claimed to be the messiah who died on a cross, but that does not confirm that he was a real messiah (though obviously I think that he was).

You can't look at everything in the world and rationally conclude 'Jesus died for my sins' or even 'there must be a divine creator', even with input from historians and the Bible itself (for the Bible is not necessarily self-supporting to a skeptical mind).

God does not give a person who reads the Bible from a skeptical point of view an obvious reason to believe that the Bible is right, or anywhere near it. With a complete lack of evidence and the fact that the Bible is a book of ancient theology (written, depending on the book, anywhere from six to two thousand years ago) where the OT regularly tells us of things which are either impossible or blatantly false (see: Noah's Ark - there is no reason to believe that there was a mass extinction that effected humanity anywhere in the past 250,000 years, EG since modern humans entered the world).

It doesn't seem to matter how much a person searches - if they apply a reasonable amount of skepticism, nothing is going to conclude to a big picture which makes sense and fits together. Not without faith.

And that's the problem: Faith is irrational! But we're all expected to have faith in the Lord and to come to Him. It doesn't make very much sense to me for God to give us the ability to reason, but at the same time not involve that reason in discovering Him. Essentially, there is no reason to be faithful.

RE: Creation of the universe - God didn't have to make it. And if God made it, who made God? And who made the thing that made God? And who made the thing that made the thing that made God? ... And on and on. There's no reason to believe that the universe is divinely created.

RE: Multiple kinds of faith - Many people argue that there are 'multiple kinds of faith', one of which is getting on an airplane and not expecting for it to crash (EG: For reality to be consistent). However, I wouldn't say that this is faith, but you getting on a plane fervently hoping it won't crash by trusting the pilot, mechanics, etc. to do their jobs right. Yes, that is a kind of faith, but it's not a religious faith - it's a rational one. There is every reason to believe that your plane is (probably) not going to crash. There is no reasoning pointing directly to a divine creator, much less one who actively involves Himself in our lives.

RE: But look at Christians! We seek after the Lord, and those who do so are happy and calm and stuff! - This doesn't mean much. It could easily just be a case of sample bias, or something completely unassociated with faith in the Lord that all of these people have in common. There is no rational reason to believe that the Lord works with people from a skeptical, faithless view.

I just don't get it. Why doesn't it all wrap up? The big picture doesn't come together without faith, so there isn't a way to come to God (to gain faith) through rational thought. Why would God expect everyone to come to Him if, for rational and skeptical people, there is no reason to come to Him?

I has a confused.

James

So I guess things are slow over on the atheist forums these days, huh?
 
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Mumbie

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So I guess things are slow over on the atheist forums these days, huh?

I'm worried someone will think that of me, with some of the things I've posted. I think there are a lot of people here who are "on the fence." We desperately WANT to believe and are always hoping we'll hear something that speaks to us. That's my position anyway. Christian with doubts!:o
 
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Lion King

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I'm worried someone will think that of me, with some of the things I've posted. I think there are a lot of people here who are "on the fence." We desperately WANT to believe and are always hoping we'll hear something that speaks to us. That's my position anyway. Christian with doubts!:o

It's alright, we all have our moment of doubt, sometimes. Noboby is perfect.:thumbsup:

And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief. Mark 9:24
 
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Publius

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I'm worried someone will think that of me, with some of the things I've posted. I think there are a lot of people here who are "on the fence." We desperately WANT to believe and are always hoping we'll hear something that speaks to us. That's my position anyway. Christian with doubts!:o

I'm not talking about "doubt". I'm talking about denying defining characteristics of Christianity.
 
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Lion King

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I'm not talking about "doubt". I'm talking about denying defining characteristics of Christianity.

sounds like the OP has doubts to me.:thumbsup:

doubt
noun /dout/ 
doubts, plural

A feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction
- some doubt has been cast upon the authenticity of this account
- they had doubts that they would ever win

verb /dout/ 
doubted, past participle; doubted, past tense; doubting, present participle; doubts, 3rd person singular present

Feel uncertain about
- I doubt my ability to do the job

Question the truth or fact of (something)
- who can doubt the value of these services?
- I doubt if anyone slept that night

Disbelieve (a person or their word)
- I have no reason to doubt him

Feel uncertain, esp. about one's religious beliefs

Fear; be afraid of
- I doubt not your contradictions
 
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Optimax

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I've been struggling with a certain question lately and have not been able to find, or think of, a single explanation for why God expects everyone to admit His existence (I assume that to admit that He is the Lord, you're going to then submit to him).

The issue I have is that if you look at the Bible and its contents from a rational standpoint, there is no reason to believe it. Yes, we know that there was a guy who claimed to be the messiah who died on a cross, but that does not confirm that he was a real messiah (though obviously I think that he was).

You can't look at everything in the world and rationally conclude 'Jesus died for my sins' or even 'there must be a divine creator', even with input from historians and the Bible itself (for the Bible is not necessarily self-supporting to a skeptical mind).

God does not give a person who reads the Bible from a skeptical point of view an obvious reason to believe that the Bible is right, or anywhere near it. With a complete lack of evidence and the fact that the Bible is a book of ancient theology (written, depending on the book, anywhere from six to two thousand years ago) where the OT regularly tells us of things which are either impossible or blatantly false (see: Noah's Ark - there is no reason to believe that there was a mass extinction that effected humanity anywhere in the past 250,000 years, EG since modern humans entered the world).

It doesn't seem to matter how much a person searches - if they apply a reasonable amount of skepticism, nothing is going to conclude to a big picture which makes sense and fits together. Not without faith.

And that's the problem: Faith is irrational! But we're all expected to have faith in the Lord and to come to Him. It doesn't make very much sense to me for God to give us the ability to reason, but at the same time not involve that reason in discovering Him. Essentially, there is no reason to be faithful.

RE: Creation of the universe - God didn't have to make it. And if God made it, who made God? And who made the thing that made God? And who made the thing that made the thing that made God? ... And on and on. There's no reason to believe that the universe is divinely created.

RE: Multiple kinds of faith - Many people argue that there are 'multiple kinds of faith', one of which is getting on an airplane and not expecting for it to crash (EG: For reality to be consistent). However, I wouldn't say that this is faith, but you getting on a plane fervently hoping it won't crash by trusting the pilot, mechanics, etc. to do their jobs right. Yes, that is a kind of faith, but it's not a religious faith - it's a rational one. There is every reason to believe that your plane is (probably) not going to crash. There is no reasoning pointing directly to a divine creator, much less one who actively involves Himself in our lives.

RE: But look at Christians! We seek after the Lord, and those who do so are happy and calm and stuff! - This doesn't mean much. It could easily just be a case of sample bias, or something completely unassociated with faith in the Lord that all of these people have in common. There is no rational reason to believe that the Lord works with people from a skeptical, faithless view.

I just don't get it. Why doesn't it all wrap up? The big picture doesn't come together without faith, so there isn't a way to come to God (to gain faith) through rational thought. Why would God expect everyone to come to Him if, for rational and skeptical people, there is no reason to come to Him?

I has a confused.

James


Where are you copying and pasting all this from? :)
 
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Ponka

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Why would God expect everyone to come to Him if, for rational and skeptical people, there is no reason to come to Him?

James

James,

Ezekiel 34 talks about the shepherds being judged for not doing their part in seeking out the lost and hurt sheep. I think this is an analogy for religious leaders whose obligation is to come to the individual, especially those that got lost along the way.

I think that God understands that some will know the path, while others might not. the role of the religious leaders to to help guide those that need it.
 
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Comprehender

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If everyone must come to the Lord, why are we expected to if there is no ability to do so on a rational level? Why are people expected to give up such a self-affirming and important thing in order to find the Lord - a self-giving and important thing?

Yes, our sin may blind us, but that doesn't change the irrationality that is inherent in the search for the Lord. Yes, the devil can use logic for evil purposes, but the Lord can also use logic for good and to bring us to Him - so why doesn't He?

James

James,
I agree that God is not just intuition/spirit, but also reason/logic.
God is love. -1John 4:8 (I don't believe it just because it's scripture, but because it makes sense, & I know some like scripture back up.)

If God is love, what is love?
Love is ATTRACTION.
This world & universe work by attraction (gravity etc.)
Aristotle taught that all events have a previous event, except for the "Prime Move" (aka God/Creator). The Prime Mover could only be "Prime" (1st) & still be unchanging... through attraction. God is like the dark energy/matter that permeates everything (including us) of infinite potentials (10th dimension). If you magnify something or someone enough times, you'll see mostly space! And science is discovering that within this space is not just "nothing" but subatomic particles popping in & out of existence. Much yet to be learned here! But basically, all life energy is attracted to it's life's purpose/energy.

What is most applicable for us personally is that God is love.
God is passion, purpose, GOoDness, love.
God/Love is hoping & striving for what is best through trial & error (active faith).
We cannot help but believe in & actively pursue God!
God is that which we worship - our passion or "ultimate concern."
Even Atheists can only passionately deny God in the name of God! :hug:
The challenge is discovering the "ultimate concern" (best in the big picture) of any given circumstance.
 
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Jpark

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I've been struggling with a certain question lately and have not been able to find, or think of, a single explanation for why God expects everyone to admit His existence (I assume that to admit that He is the Lord, you're going to then submit to him).
Do you know what this means:

The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

It means 'no fear of God', not 'God does not exist'.

Romans 13

Criminals. Murderers. Terrorists. Why do they do it? Because they're not afraid of the consequences. Yet there is lingering fear, a small amount of doubt, reluctance of accepting responsibility, about being caught and facing judgement.

Likewise, a non-believer has a measure of faith, capacity to consider. Rom. 1:18-21
 
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Strong in Him

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I've been struggling with a certain question lately and have not been able to find, or think of, a single explanation for why God expects everyone to admit His existence (I assume that to admit that He is the Lord, you're going to then submit to him).

The issue I have is that if you look at the Bible and its contents from a rational standpoint, there is no reason to believe it.

There is, actually.

Apart from anything else, the Bible contains a lot of history - for example, the history of the nation of Israel, which the Jewish historian, Josephus, writes about. In the NT, Luke was a historian, and often gives us historical details - eg in Chapter 3 he tells us who was emperor, governor of Judea and high priest at that time. In Acts he tells us of a famine which occurred during the reign of the emperor Claudius.
Archaeologists have uncovered remains and buildings which confirm the presence of buildings listed in the Bible, and then there are manuscripts, the Dead Sea scrolls and so on. The book of Ezra contains the edict of Darius, a Babylonian and pagan king.
So the historical references, details and evidence alone should tell us that the Bible contains some truth.

The Old Testament is the Jewish Scriptures. It contains all the details of their feasts, laws, festivals and how and why they were to keep them. They still do to this day. I understand even Muslims accept and believe the Old Testament. Christians do too.
A large number of people, therefore, believe and acknowledge the OT. That may not prove to us that it is true, but it is surely harder to dismiss the faith and practices of thousands of people.

Christians differ from these two religions, though, because we believe that the Old Testament points to Jesus and prophesies his life, teaching, death, resurrection and more besides. This is where faith comes in; the Pharisees had, and knew, the OT Scriptures, but they didn't believe - or didn't want to believe - that Jesus fulfilled them.

Yes, we know that there was a guy who claimed to be the messiah who died on a cross, but that does not confirm that he was a real messiah (though obviously I think that he was).

That's the crux of the whole matter - what do you, and others, think of Jesus?
In Mark 8:29 we read that Jesus asked his disciples; "who do you say that I am?" He still asks each of us that question today.
If you have ever done an Alpha course, or read about them, that is one of the questions that is discussed in detail; was Jesus mad, a liar, deluded, or who he said he was?
You, or others, may conclude that he was one of the first 3. Ok, but they then have to dismiss teachings such as "treat others as you would like to be treated", "love one another"; parables such as The Good Samaritan and Prodigal Son, (and both those phrases are used in everyday speech or conversation), and the well known Lord's Prayer which has given comfort to many. Because how can you trust these things if they are the words of a liar or deluded man?

If someone believes that Jesus was a good teacher and accepts as true these words of his, then surely the only logical conclusioin is that he was right about the other things that he said too? He predicted that he would be tortured and crucified - that was true, why not his words about rising from the dead?

And this might be a matter of faith again, but doesn't the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead confirm that Jesus was weho he said he was, and spoke the truth? Would God raise a blasphemous liar from the dead? Would the disciples have been willing to endure persection, torture and to give their lives for something which they knew wasn't true?

You can't look at everything in the world and rationally conclude 'Jesus died for my sins'

Don't look at eveything in the world to discover the truth of this statement; look at Jesus, what he said, the cross, what the disciples taught and what they were willing to give their lives for. Then look at the saints, clergy, missionaries and ordinary Christians who, for the last 2000 years, have lived and died for this Gospel. Read the testimonies of former drug addicts, Satanists, cult members etc and people who had their lives completely turned upside down when they dared to believe that God loved them and Jesus died for them.

The evidence of changed lives, being set free from bad habits and destructive lifestyles, is vey hard to dismiss or ignore.

With a complete lack of evidence and the fact that the Bible is a book of ancient theology

Is it?

Have you read the story of Jacob - who cheated his brother out of an inheritance, had to run away to save his life and went to stay with his uncle, who in turn, cheated him and tricked him into marrying a woman he didn't love?

Or of Joseph - a spoilt younger son, his father's favourite, who was sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, falsely accused of rape and imprisioned and could have been set free sooner than he was if someone had kept their promise?

Or of David - a great king, who gave into temptation, had an affair, got the woman prgnant, tried to get the woman's husband to sleep with her so that they could pass the bay off as his, and when that didn't work, arranged to have the husband killed?

Or of Solomon, who started so well but was seduced by women and wealth and lost his faith?

Or of Peter, who swore blind he would never deny Jesus, but when under pressure, did just that?

Ancient theology? Some of these stories have formed the basis for plays and soap operas. Do they have nothing to teach us today; are they irrelevant?

(written, depending on the book, anywhere from six to two thousand years ago)

Yet the earliest Gospel was written about 30-35 years after Jesus died - compare with some other books which have been written hundreds of years after the subject of the book had died.

It doesn't seem to matter how much a person searches - if they apply a reasonable amount of skepticism, nothing is going to conclude to a big picture which makes sense and fits together. Not without faith.

We need faith for everything.
You have no proof that you will wake up tomorrow; you no doubt expect to, and that means you will be happily go to bed tonight.

Ever thought that it takes just as much faith to believe that God doesn't exist in the face of overwhelming testimony and personal experience from those who believe that he does?

And that's the problem: Faith is irrational! But we're all expected to have faith in the Lord and to come to Him.

We're not expected to - he gives us the choice; we have free will.
Those of us who come to God to be saved by him, do so because he is the only One who CAN save us.
 
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