Why do you pray to mary jesus mother she cant help you ?

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I would love to see you expand on this thought.

Catholic speculative theology seems to get rather bogged down at this point. The apparent logic would seem to be that if a sinless mother is required to bear a sinless child and Jesus Christ was sinless, therefore not only was His mother sinless, but all of his maternal ancestors back to Eve herself had to be sinless. Thus, it appears to be rather convenient to stop the argument in its tracks by stating that a sinless child was, indeed, born to a mother who was a sinner.
 
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Rhamiel

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The apparent logic would seem to be that if a sinless mother is required to bear a sinless child and Jesus Christ was sinless,

the argument from us is not that Jesus NEEDED a sinless mother
He could have been born from a harlot if that was what He wanted
(though the prophesies would have been different in the OT)

we believe the that is was fitting that He was born from an immaculate women

while the Eastern Orthodox does not have the same teaching about original sin
they teach the "blamelessness of Mary" saying she never committed a personal sin....
maybe an EO member can explain this more, or correct me if I misspoke
 
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rockytopva

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Pentecostals cherish one name... And that is the name of Jesus...

Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. - Acts 3:6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnV5eq2MiOA
 
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Light of the East

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Pentecostals cherish one name... And that is the name of Jesus...

Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. - Acts 3:6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnV5eq2MiOA

If you do not cherish Mary, you do not understand how to fully cherish Jesus.

Honor for a creator goes to him through his creation. When we speak of the beauty of nature, those of us who are Christian do so in appreciation of all that God has made in His goodness.

When we speak of Mary, we honor God in all that He did through Her, for She was merely creature, yet a very special creation of His, one that shows His grace and glory in all that He did through Her obedience.
 
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Rhamiel

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we can see from the catacombs, that very early Christians asked the Saints in Heaven to pray for them
these are people who left Paganism to become Christian, and many of them were being put to death for their belief in Christ
so I find this accusation of Paganism (saints being treated like demi-gods), from people in faith traditions that originated long after Paganism lost all political power in Europe, very disrespectful and disturbing

St. Lucy prayed for the intercession of St. Agatha
latter St. Lucy was put to death for her refusal to worship the idols of Pagan Rome
the fact that comfortable First World Christians would dare equate her devotion to St. Agatha with paganism is disgusting, you know nothing of paganism, she saw the evil effects of paganism and would not compromise with it.
she is a true hero of the faith
 
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Albion

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I'm complicated, at the moment. Not either, but I do appreciate a lot of both denominations. But I guess I'll look for another icon since I am a Christian.

That probably would be good to do, as people have a hard time with these other icons that suggest the wearer is some sort of 'blank check' for whom all varieties of Christianity are open or equal in their thinking. By the way, other posters who have struggled with the right one to use have also chosen to include in their posts a little phrase here or there that indicates their special status (like "although I'm still looking at both the X and Y churches, I feel.....")
 
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Tigger45

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I'm complicated, at the moment. Not either, but I do appreciate a lot of both denominations. But I guess I'll look for another icon since I am a Christian.
As you can tell by my faith icon I like to use the standard black cross. I think its self explanatory without depicting a particular denom.
 
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katerinah1947

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MARY IS DEAD AND CANT HELP YOU CAUSE THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING ECCL 9V 3: This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4: For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the
sun. ALSO JESUS SAID JN:14V6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. REV : 1V11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. REV: 1V18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. JESUS HAS ALL THESE THINGS NOT MARY

Hi,
Did you ever get your question answered? I know you stated yourself as immovable, on the subject of praying to Mary, if I take your word literally. If I do that, there is no way for this to go this long, the words here.

One day in my life, I had to choose a religion. I did that. I then went. One thing led to another over the years, and I saw some words, and the historical context of those words. The words were to pray the rosary everyday. So, I started, but I kept looking for a way out of those words. I looked for a change. I looked for a retraction of some sort. In a few months time, I gave up. I could find no retraction. Argh! I did it anyway.
I did not want to do that. I did not. A year later after trying to find a way out of those words, I came across some other words. Promises of the Rosary. Only I had already decided not to read that. Personally I am against doing things for a reward. That is me. I do things if they are right, not if I get something out of it. I don't think I was always that way, but when I flashed across that page, I was then. I went back though and found those words anyway. I started to read. Wow! (Imagine please you are me. Also imagine your work is science. Also imagine that you somehow are the one who fixes problems that no one else can fix. Imagine not knowing that, but imagine you are that and you come across those words. You will fight those words. If they win fine. If they don't then publicize what you have found.)
I read item one, and my life had changed. It was now true. I read and everything that could be known to be true was.
...Katerina., ...... .
 
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PanDeVida

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MARY IS DEAD AND CANT HELP YOU CAUSE THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING ECCL 9V 3: This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4: For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the
sun. ALSO JESUS SAID JN:14V6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. REV : 1V11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. REV: 1V18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. JESUS HAS ALL THESE THINGS NOT MARY

TYSR,
The Dead in Christ know nothing, But the Living in Christ Know everything. God is the God of the Living not the dead, therefore those who live in Him though are dead are yet alive and know all that goes on on earth.

Have you not read the Rich Man and Lazarus??? Abraham knew all that went on between the rich man a and Lazarus hear on earth, while Father Abraham was in Heaven. Read it for yourself and wrap about your mistake:
Luke 16:25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Tysr, read how this parable proves you Wrong. The Living in Christ Like Father Abraham knows and hears exactly what happens here on earth.
 
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Panevino

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Catholic speculative theology seems to get rather bogged down at this point. The apparent logic would seem to be that if a sinless mother is required to bear a sinless child and Jesus Christ was sinless, therefore not only was His mother sinless, but all of his maternal ancestors back to Eve herself had to be sinless. Thus, it appears to be rather convenient to stop the argument in its tracks by stating that a sinless child was, indeed, born to a mother who was a sinner.
This assumes that it is a Catholic prerequisite to enable Jesus to be sinless, which is a strawman.
 
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bbbbbbb

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This assumes that it is a Catholic prerequisite to enable Jesus to be sinless, which is a strawman.

Indeed it is. Fortunately for you the Catholic Church has neatly dodged that theological landmine by insisting that only Mary needed to be immaculately conceived in order to bear the Son of God. However, you only have your denomination making that statement, so you are part of a Christian organization which differs significantly from all other Christian denominations on this dogma.
 
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thecolorsblend

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we can see from the catacombs, that very early Christians asked the Saints in Heaven to pray for them
these are people who left Paganism to become Christian, and many of them were being put to death for their belief in Christ
so I find this accusation of Paganism (saints being treated like demi-gods), from people in faith traditions that originated long after Paganism lost all political power in Europe, very disrespectful and disturbing

St. Lucy prayed for the intercession of St. Agatha
latter St. Lucy was put to death for her refusal to worship the idols of Pagan Rome
the fact that comfortable First World Christians would dare equate her devotion to St. Agatha with paganism is disgusting, you know nothing of paganism, she saw the evil effects of paganism and would not compromise with it.
she is a true hero of the faith
I agree. This "pagan" thing gets tossed around mostly by American Protestants who know very little about Catholicism and nothing at all about paganism. It would be funny if it wasn't so offensive.
 
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JohannineScholar

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I agree. This "pagan" thing gets tossed around mostly by American Protestants who know very little about Catholicism and nothing at all about paganism. It would be funny if it wasn't so offensive.
Your positioning yourself on the intellectual high ground here is baseless. Perhaps you could educate yourself and read the Anglican Elizabethan Homilies on the Perils of Idolatry (certainly not representative of American protestantism), or perhaps Bevan's Holy Images, to see that what you attributed to "American Protestants" goes back to the earliest ages of the church. Disagree with the conclusions all you like, but don't indulge in caricatures while doing so.

It's actually the RC who is often ignorant of what paganism was, claiming, for example, that Catholics are not pagan because they pray to the person behind the image, not the image itself, apparently ignorant of the fact that the ancient Romans claimed the exact same thing. Again, I am not going to be drawn into the implications of this. I am simply stating the fact, so often unknown to Catholics. The Babylonians held the same conception, though that didn't stop the biblical prophets from caricaturing them by stating (though not strictly theologically true from the Babylonian--and Roman Catholic--perspective) that they worshiped the actual material substance of the image.
 
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kepha31

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Your positioning yourself on the intellectual high ground here is baseless. Perhaps you could educate yourself and read the Anglican Elizabethan Homilies on the Perils of Idolatry (certainly not representative of American protestantism), or perhaps Bevan's Holy Images, to see that what you attributed to "American Protestants" goes back to the earliest ages of the church. Disagree with the conclusions all you like, but don't indulge in caricatures while doing so.

It's actually the RC who is often ignorant of what paganism was, claiming, for example, that Catholics are not pagan because they pray to the person behind the image, not the image itself, apparently ignorant of the fact that the ancient Romans claimed the exact same thing. Again, I am not going to be drawn into the implications of this. I am simply stating the fact, so often unknown to Catholics. The Babylonians held the same conception, though that didn't stop the biblical prophets from caricaturing them by stating (though not strictly theologically true from the Babylonian--and Roman Catholic--perspective) that they worshiped the actual material substance of the image.
Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

Very frequently, the pagan influence fallacy is committed in connection with other fallacies, most notably the post hoc ergo proper hoc ("After this, therefore because of this") fallacy—e.g., "Some ancient pagans did or believed something millennia ago, therefore any parallel Christian practices and beliefs must be derived from that source." Frequently, a variant on this fallacy is committed in which, as soon as a parallel with something pagan is noted, it is assumed that the pagan counterpart is the more ancient. This variant might be called the similis hoc ergo propter hoc ("Similar to this, therefore because of this") fallacy.

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented, not just asserted. The danger of accepting an inaccurate claim is too great. The amount of misinformation in this area is great enough that it is advisable never to accept a reported parallel as true unless it can be demonstrated from primary source documents or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

1. Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not. The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source.

2. Is the parallel dependent or independent? Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

3. Is the parallel antecedent or consequent? Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other.

4. Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively? Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross—his execution being regarded as a bad thing in itself, in fact, an infinite injustice—but one from which he brought life for the world. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.

Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism "pagan" fail. Catholic doctrines are neither borrowed from the mystery religions nor introduced from pagans after the conversion of Constantine. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.
Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers
 
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