Why do you pray to mary jesus mother she cant help you ?

concretecamper

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Are we talking about unscriptural saint veneration...or just the official excuse?

venerate: meaning to regard with reverence and respect

I suspect you never honored your father and mother, or treated them with respect and reverence because of your distain of veneration....or maybe it is the misplaced meaning of veneration you cling to.

The scripture is filled with showing reverence and respect to the saints...living or dead. The goal of veneration is imitation. I can think of many saints to imitate...how about you?
 
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Erth

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Are we talking about unscriptural saint veneration...or just the official excuse?

You can deny the facts and bring in the church that endorses such practices to say that it doesn't do what it does...but that doesn't change anything. And you seem unable to justify such doings yourself. That alone shows us a lot.

Read the link. The intercession of saints is scriptural.
 
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Read the link. The intercession of saints is scriptural.

There is a distinct difference between the intercession of living saints and the alleged intercession of deceased saints who are accorded divine attributes by their adherents such as omnipresence (being in all places at the same time in order to hear all of the prayers offered to the saint), omniscience (knowing all things in order to be able to respond to the multitude of simultaneous prayers), and omnipotence (having all power so as to be able to respond to each and every prayer.

I have not met a single saint on this earth who has any of these powers, have you?
 
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Galilee63

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Because Albion many things were omitted and not included within the Holy Bible including the fact that Jesus Himself while appearing to Saint Bernard, a priest, stated the following:

"Saint Bernard and the Prayer to the Holy Wound" (the capitals were in the original posting copied).

IT IS RELATED IN THE ANNALS OF CLAIRVAUX THAT ST. BERNARD ASKED OUR LORD WHICH WAS HIS GREATEST UNRECORDED SUFFERING, AND OUR LORD ANSWERED:

"I HAD ON MY SHOULDER WHILE I BORE MY CROSS ON THE WAY OF SORROWS, A GRIEVOUS WOUND WHICH WAS MORE PAINFUL THAN THE OTHERS, AND WHICH IS NOT RECORDED BY MEN. HONOR THIS WOUND WITH THY DEVOTION, AND I WILL GRANT THEE WHATSOEVER THOU DOST ASK THROUGH ITS VIRTUE AND MERIT. AND IN REGARD TO ALL THOSE WHO SHALL VENERATE THIS WOUND, I WILL REMIT TO THEM ALL THEIR VENIAL SINS, AND WILL NO LONGER REMEMBER THEIR MORTAL SINS."

PRAYER TO THE WOUND ON THE SHOULDER

O most loving Jesus, meek lamb of God, I, a miserable sinner,
salute and worship the most sacred Wound of Thy Shoulder
on which Thou didst bear Thy heavy Cross, which so
tore Thy flesh and laid bare Thy bones as to inflict on Thee
an anguish greater than any other wound of Thy most blessed body.
I adore Thee, O Jesus most sorrowful; I praise and glorify Thee,
and give Thee thanks for this most sacred and painful
Wound, beseeching Thee by that exceeding pain, and by
the crushing burden of Thy heavy Cross, to be merciful to me,
a sinner, and to forgive me all my mortal and venial sins, and
to lead me on toward Heaven along the Way of the Cross. Amen.

IMPRIMATUR: Thomas D. Beaven, Bishop of Springfield


God The Most High made reference to Esdra/Ezra and His Apostles BC that when the Messiah was forthcoming He would be Mercy and give out Mercy to mankind.

Jesus then appeared to Saint Faustina during the 1930's disclosing His Mercy - His Divine Mercy including Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet for mankind to pray to Him in order to receive His Divine Mercy.

The Descent of The Holy Spirit:

"and they were all filled with The Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign tongues even as The Holy Spirit prompted them to speak".

The Assumption:

"And a great sign appeared in Heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under Her feet and upon Her Head a crown of twelve stars".

The Coronation:

"Thou art the Glory of Jerusalem the honour of our people...The Hand of The Lord hath strengthened Thee, and therefore Thou shalt be Blessed forever".

In 1997 the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, approved the renaming of the place as "Holy Mary of Third Millennium at Three Fountains".

The Virgin of the Revelation, Rome

April 12, 1947

ROME, on the above date, was a sunny Saturday after Easter. Bruno Cornacchiola, a railway worker, decided to take advantage of the beautiful spring day by taking his three children----- Isola, aged ten, Carlo, aged seven, and Gianfranco, aged four----- on a picnic. It was a day he will never forget as it changed the whole course of his life. Early that afternoon he providentially missed a train going to Ostia and so decided to go to Tre Fontane instead. It is a location just outside of Rome noted for the shrine where St. Paul suffered Martyrdom and a parklike area with eucalyptus trees. It was also, alas, notorious as a place of sin in which even the bodies of dead preborn babies were found. There, in the shade of the eucalyptus, while his children played, Bruno pored over his Bible. He was preparing a speech which he intended to deliver in a public square the following day. It was a vicious attack on the Church's teaching on the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Although Bruno had been Baptized a Catholic and received his First Holy Communion, he wasn't a practicing Catholic. His parents weren't very religious and his early environment in an ill-famed district of Rome certainly didn't foster his Faith. A few months after he was married, he deserted his wife and volunteered to fight in the Spanish Civil War. It was there that he left the practice of the Catholic faith and embraced Protestantism, eventually becoming a militant Seventh Day Adventist. He returned to Rome and his wife, who remained a practicing Catholic, in 1939. In his uncontrollable anger, he often beat her up. He wouldn't allow her to bring the older children to church and refused to have the youngest son Baptized.

Besides being a wife-beater, Bruno Cornacchiola was not a very good Christian. His language was punctuated frequently with obscenities, blasphemy and he had affairs with other women. The very morning of the picnic he passed a statue of Our Lady which had on the base of the statue, "Virgin Mother." Bruno wrote in pencil, "You are neither virgin nor mother." In his great hatred of the Church, he had even devised a plot to assassinate Pope Pius XII on September 8, 1947, the feast of the birthday of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the late afternoon of the 12th, in the middle of his preparation for his attack on Mary's great prerogative, one of his children interrupted him. Would he help them find their ball? Bruno put aside his Scripture text and the notes he had taken and joined in the search. While searching for the ball, Bruno found his youngest son, Gianfranco, kneeling at the entrance to a dark cave. The boy's hands were folded in the attitude of one engrossed in prayer, as though in ecstasy. With a happy countenance and his eyes fixed on a certain point of the cave, the child repeated, "Beautiful lady! Beautiful lady!" as though he were addressing a living person.

Bruno was surprised, then uneasy, and finally terror seized him. He could see nothing in the interior of the cave. What was he to make of his son's strange behavior? Excitedly he turned to Isola and Carlo for an explanation. But the children's curiosity and fear for their younger brother were brief. Within seconds they also-----first Isola and then Carlo-----fell to their knees and joined their hands in prayer, enraptured with the same vision. Bruno was dumbfounded. Then he heard all three of his children cry out together: "Beautiful lady!" He tried to move each child, but they were as if glued to the ground. He was terrified.
Suddenly, Bruno was also overcome by the strange mystical experience. His eyes were filled with intense light for a moment, then everything in front of him disappeared his children and the cave. He felt himself becoming weightless, ethereal, as if his spirit had been freed of his body. When he regained his sight, after momentary blindness, Bruno saw in the most illuminated part of the cave a woman of indescribable celestial beauty. Her head was adorned by a halo of brilliant golden light. The lady had black hair, and was clothed in a radiant white dress, gathered together by a rose-colored sash whose edges fell gracefully at her side; over her shoulders she wore a striking green mantle. The three colors of the dress (white), sash (rose-colored) and mantel (green) have special significance to Bruno. He explains that they signify Mary's relationship to the Three Divine Persons and the three apparitions of Lourdes, Fatima and Rome. In fact, Our Lady identified herself as, "Daughter of the Father, the Mother of the Son, and Spouse and Temple of the Holy Spirit." At her bare feet lay a black cloth which had a smashed crucifix on it.

Her face had an expression of motherly kindness, although clouded by sadness at times. In her right hand she held, resting on her breast, a small gray book. Her hands were crossed at her breast, but she unfolded them once to point to the broken pieces of the crucifix. She then joined them together again. In a noteworthy departure from other modern apparitions, Mary appeared not only to a non-practicing Catholic but to a zealous enemy of the Church and of herself personally. What message did she have for the wayward Bruno Cornacchiola and our times? We know only part of it; the remainder was to be delivered to Pope Pius XII, who later was to bless the statue of the Virgin that stands in the grotto where she appeared.

When the Blessed Virgin identified herself to Bruno Cornacchiola, she did so with two profound truths. The first was of a general nature:

"I am the one that is of the Divine Trinity."

"I am the one that is of the Divine Trinity: Daughter of the Father, the Mother of the Son, and Spouse and Temple of the Holy Spirit"

Because of her relationship to each person in the Blessed Trinity-----daughter of the Eternal Father, spouse of the Holy Spirit and mother of the Divine Son-----she is altogether unique among all of God's creation. In the second identification she chose to reveal herself in relation to Bruno's activity of Bible reading:

"I am the Virgin of the Revelation."


By this second title she corrects the error of those who would deny her privileges as unfounded, unnecessary inventions of the Catholic Church, not found in Divine Revelation in the Bible. She was admonishing a return to God and a more literal living of the holy Gospel:

"Return to the pure source of the Gospel."

Then the Virgin of the Revelation addressed herself directly to Bruno,

"You persecute me-----enough of it now! Enter into the true fold, God's Kingdom on earth. The Nine First Fridays of the Sacred Heart have saved you. You must be like the flowers which Isola picked, they make no protest, they are silent and do not rebel. . . . With this dirt of sin, I shall perform powerful miracles for the conversion of unbelievers."

She revealed to Bruno the sad condition of his soul, at the once all his pat arguments and prejudices against the Church fell apart and he saw before him the way to salvation-----the Roman Catholic Church.
At that point, the Virgin of the Revelation taught him the sure means of salvation, for him and for and all mankind, which is prayer, and in particular the daily recitation of the Holy Rosary.

"Pray much and recite the Rosary for the conversion of sinners, of unbelievers and of all Christians." As a reward to those souls who would listen to her message of prayer for the salvation of mankind, the Virgin promised great favors from Heaven. "In this place of sin I shall perform wonderful miracles for the conversion of unbelievers."

In Bruno Cornacchiola, the Blessed Virgin recognized that we all have our moments of doubt and discouragement, and should turn to her for help.

The Virgin of the Revelation also favored her prodigal son with foreknowledge of a portion of the future dogma of the Assumption, proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950. She revealed: "My body could not be allowed to decay. My Son came for me with His Angels . . ."

True to Mary's promise, the dirt from the Grotto of Tre Fontane, which formally saw great immorality, has proven to be miraculous. Like the miraculous waters at Lourdes, it continues to work wonders for the welfare of both bodies and souls. There have been so many bodily cures and conversions that no one disputes that these graces have been received through the intercession of the Virgin of the Revelation.
In order to test him and to assure him of the Divine reality of all he experienced, she gave him a sign.

"Every time you meet a priest in church or in the street, you are to approach him and address him with these words, 'Father I must talk to you.' If he answers, 'Ave Maria! My son, what do you want?' beg him to stop because he is the chosen one. He will direct you to another priest by saying, 'He is the one for you.' "

It was quite a test that Our Lady put him through. He had to ask the question, countless times it seemed, to every priest he met and not get the proper response and walk away sadly aware of being thought of as rude or even out of his mind. It upset him so much that he was on the point of despair and even thought of committing suicide.

Then he prayed as he had never prayed before. Didn't Our Lady ask him to pray and suffer for the conversion of sinners, of unbelievers and for unity of all Christians? He persevered and it eventually happened exactly as Our Lady predicted. However, as the word of the apparition got around he had much to suffer from former friends and associates who accused him of being a fanatic, crazy, etc. Others saw him as an exploiter of a situation that brought much attention to him. He was examined by the police and given, along with his children, psychiatric examinations. If he at times became depressed, he now turned to his spiritual guide, Our Lady of Good Counsel.

As if to refocus attention on the shrine and her message to Bruno, on April 12, 1980, the 33rd anniversary of the Virgin's visit, a most astounding public miracle occurred at Tre Fontane in the presence of 3,000 people (including some 25 priests), who had gathered to hear Bruno Cornacchiola recall the first apparition and to attend a commemorative Mass. During the Holy Sacrifice strange images appeared in the sky above the Grotto. The sun seemed to turn backwards in the heavens and began to draw near the earth. It could be seen with without straining the eyes. It appeared bigger than normal, and showed within its corona brilliant and diverse colors, in much the same way as the sun "danced" in the sky over Fatima, Portugal in 1917.

In rapid movements, as an incandescent magma, forming diverse figurations, the sun appeared as: a cross; an "M"; a heart surrounded with stars, or dripping with blood; the monogram of Christ "IHS"; hands joined in prayer; the Holy Family; etc. Some also claim to have seen the solar crown separate in three circles, then come back together again. In spite of the numerous trees, which should have impeded vision, the sun stood out clearly and brightened the chapel, faces, and the clothing of the people.

The phenomenon lasted about a half an hour.

www.indefenseofthecross.com/Virgin_of_Revelation.htm


Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour
 
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Albion

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Read the link. The intercession of saints is scriptural.

It's not. It doesn't matter if the link from a church that engages in such a practice tells you that it's scriptural. What would you expect that source to say--that that church is following a wrongful practice but intends to keep on?
 
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Galilee63

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Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem


"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).


Gregory of Nazianz

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
 
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Albion

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Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us.
This is widely accepted as true, but neither is it the issue. The issue is whether or not it is an acceptable practice for us to pray TO THEM.

See how all your examples are about something other than us praying to them...

In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

That speaks of mortals, not spirits.

In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
A non-sequitur. The idea that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful does not translate into him directing it to someone other than God.
 
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Galilee63

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The Holy Prayer that God The Most High gave Jesus Christ our Saviour to deliver within The Blessed Virgin Mary's Holy Rosary is the following to Archangel Michael:

Holy Michael Archangel, defend us in the day of battle, be our safeguard against the weapon and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou Prince of The Heavenly Hosts, thrust down to hell satan and all its evil spirits roaming the world, for the ruin of souls Amen.

We have been given Holy Scripture writings attesting to the fact that we are able to pray to the Saints.

Yesterday somewhere on here I posted some of the Holy Scriptures with Revelations included pertaining to the Saints. I will find these again and post them.

I pray to the Saints of whom Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God have appeared to other Saints here throughout the ages, delivering God The Most High's Prayers; the Prayer to Archangel Michael being one Albion through our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour
 
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xenia

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Are you sure Mary is dead?

Is Jesus the God of the living or of the dead?

Isn't God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Is He the God of the dead? Or the living?

Did not Moses and Elijah appear with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration?

He is the God of the living.

Mary is alive.
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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Are you sure Mary is dead?

Is Jesus the God of the living or of the dead?

Isn't God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Is He the God of the dead? Or the living?

Did not Moses and Elijah appear with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration?

He is the God of the living.

Mary is alive.

I am much more certain that Mary died than I am that John the Baptist had seven heads. There is absolutely no physical or historical evidence that Mary did not die (and even your own church has depictions of her death) whereas your church has at least seven completely verified skulls of John the Baptist.
 
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Albion

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I am much more certain that Mary died than I am that John the Baptist had seven heads. There is absolutely no physical or historical evidence that Mary did not die (and even your own church has depictions of her death) whereas your church has at least seven completely verified skulls of John the Baptist.

Oh but, you know how the game is played by now, bbbbbbb. ;)

We say that Mary died--meaning what everyone knows is a reference to a physical death that all of us mortals will experience--and then the other side gets to pretend that we don't believe in life after death. :yawn:
 
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topcare

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I am much more certain that Mary died than I am that John the Baptist had seven heads. There is absolutely no physical or historical evidence that Mary did not die (and even your own church has depictions of her death) whereas your church has at least seven completely verified skulls of John the Baptist.
In a very real sense Mary is not dead, nor is any Christian who goes to be with the Lord. It is an unfortunate thing that Christian describe going to be with Christ as dead as the world does. When we go to be with the Lord we are much more alive than we could ever be on earth
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Lutheran accept this prayer per Dialogue with Roman Catholics. Seems like a reasonable middle ground to acknowledged the Mary prays for and we can praise or pray to Holy Mary:


O Theotokos (Mother of God), the second heaven
You are the honoured Mother of the Light.

From sunrise to sunset
the faithful offer you praises

You are the bright and unchanging flower
and the mother who remained a virgin
for the Father chose you
and the Holy Spirit overshadowed you
and the Son deigned to take flesh from you.

Wherefore, ask the Lord
to give salvation to the world
which He created
and to deliver it from all tribulations

Let us praise the Lord
and sing to Him a new song
now and forever and from all ages to all ages

Amen.
 
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Albion

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In a very real sense Mary is not dead, nor is any Christian who goes to be with the Lord.

Yeh. We all know this. Nevertheless, she died a physical death like all mortals, and this phenomenon is what we--you as well as the rest of us--call "dead." Unless, of course, we 're looking to score debating points on CF. ^_^
 
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concretecamper

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In a very real sense Mary is not dead, nor is any Christian who goes to be with the Lord. It is an unfortunate thing that Christian describe going to be with Christ as dead as the world does. When we go to be with the Lord we are much more alive than we could ever be on earth

This is a concept impossible for those who are caught up in the world to realize.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Very true. To many Christians are more into the world than Christ

However, when it comes to Mary much of Catholic thinking is in the area of speculative theology without basis in systematic theology. For example, the logic of the immaculate conception runs along the lines of - God would never have become incarnate by entering the womb of a sinner. Therefore, the womb He entered was sinless. Therefore, Mary was sinless. Therefore, she much have been conceived in a sinless manner, although her own mother was a sinner.
 
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Albion

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However, when it comes to Mary much of Catholic thinking is in the area of speculative theology without basis in systematic theology. For example, the logic of the immaculate conception runs along the lines of - God would never have become incarnate by entering the womb of a sinner. Therefore, the womb He entered was sinless. Therefore, Mary was sinless. Therefore, she much have been conceived in a sinless manner, although her own mother was a sinner.

Which raises the question: Why wasn't Mary's mother Anne kept from Original Sin also?
 
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ebia

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In a very real sense Mary is not dead, nor is any Christian who goes to be with the Lord. It is an unfortunate thing that Christian describe going to be with Christ as dead as the world does. When we go to be with the Lord we are much more alive than we could ever be on earth
They will be come the final resurrection.
But we don't have the vocabulary to talk properly about the time between death and resurrection, which leads to a lot of sloppy thinking both ways.
 
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