Why do you need an eternal reward as a bribe to be good?

[GrowingSmaller]

What does it tell you when people say that imaginary belief is ridiculous, but that they do it any way, because it makes them feel better?

The poor man was suicidal, for Gods sake.

 

[Henri]

I still see nothing that requires an afterlife for one to be moral.

Why? You must give me an argument (while considering all what I said before).

 

[stevevw]

Being a Christian does not make one a more moral person than a non-Christian. The Christian is not more virtuous, more noble, or more moral. The Christian is just as flawed and just as sinful as anyone else. The Christian therefore has no high ground to gloat or boast in their own righteousness, since the Christian has no righteousness to gloat or boast about.

The Christian who thinks they are righteous is like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. The Christian, instead, is to imitate the Publican, with eyes to the ground, praying "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

-CryptoLutheran

I understand that as a christian we have to acknowledge we are sinners. We are all sinners. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, We have to be humble before God and not think we are better than others. But we are made righteous through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 http://biblia.com/bible/esv/2 Corinthians 5.21#footnote0For our sake he made him to be sin http://biblia.com/bible/esv/2 Corinthians 5.21#footnote1who knew no sin, so that in him we might become http://biblia.com/bible/esv/2 Corinthians 5.21#footnote2the righteousness of God.

That righteousness doesn't come through works and anything we have done but comes as a gift of Grace from God.
Romans 23:22 to 24
…22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;…

"I count all things but loss...that I may win Christ, And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:8-9

 

[ViaCrucis]

I understand that as a christian we have to acknowledge we are sinners. We are all sinners. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, We have to be humble before God and not think we are better than others. But we are made righteous through Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That righteousness doesn't come through works and anything we have done but comes as a gift of Grace from God.
Romans 23:22 to 24
…22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;…

"I count all things but loss...that I may win Christ, And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:8-9

My point exactly. You and I have no righteousness. We aren't righteous, Jesus is. That is the righteousness that is of faith, Christ's.

I am not a righteous and moral person. At least certainly no more than anyone else. To think otherwise is what in Lutheranism we'd call the opinio legis. The opinion of the law. The errant belief that we can, if we try hard enough, be the sort of truly just and righteous people God says we ought to be. That as though through enough effort and trying we can, indeed, climb some ladder of holiness and reach some state of moral improvement. Unfortunately when Christians continue to labor under such an errant idea one of two things tends to result: Pride or despair.

Pride comes about become some Christians manage to convince themselves that they've "achieved" something, usually by inventing fake moral laws like telling people not to drink, smoke, gamble, or watch R-rated movies (or equivalent). Laws which God has never commanded but which are far easier to obey than God's actual commandments such as "Love your enemy" and "Bless and do not curse". This moralistic pride is precisely the kind of hypocrisy and arrogance Jesus regularly condemns in the Gospels. When He condemns the parabolic Pharisee that boasts before God that he isn't like "those sinners", or when He calls a group of religious leaders a bunch of white washed tombs.

Despair comes about because usually one starts to reflect on their actions in light of what God commands (again, love your neighbor, love your enemy, bless and do not curse, etc) and they start to notice the pattern that no matter how much they try, they mess up. The reality of their inability to be that righteous person that they believe they ought to be will, usually, result in despair and turmoil. If a child continuously feels like they are disappointing a very strict parent, it's going to have an impact on that child's psyche. Which is what happens when we insist on only seeing God through the lens of His law.

Martin Luther in one of his more famous sermons said, "Anyone who regards Him as angry is not seeing Him correctly, but has pulled down a curtain and cover, more, a dark cloud over His face." The reason is this:

"But in Scriptural language 'to see His face' means to recognize Him correctly as a gracious and faithful Father, on whom you can depend for every good thing. This happens only through faith in Christ."

The reason this is only through faith in Christ is because it is only by the Gospel that we see the kind and friendly heart of God who says to us, erring and problem children though we are, "I love you, I forgive you, I accept you." Which is, of course, why we say it's good news. He is the good parent who does not hold our wrongs against us, but has declared His love for us and sought us out in Jesus. We were the woman caught in adultery, He said He did not condemn us. We were Zaccheus up in the tree, He told us He would have supper with us. We were the soldiers that crucified Him, and He pleaded God's forgiveness on us. And so we have Christ to see the friendly, fatherly heart of God, who graciously and freely forgives, loves, and accepts all that is us, broken bits and all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[stevevw]

My point exactly. You and I have no righteousness. We aren't righteous, Jesus is. That is the righteousness that is of faith, Christ's.

I am not a righteous and moral person. At least certainly no more than anyone else. To think otherwise is what in Lutheranism we'd call the opinio legis. The opinion of the law. The errant belief that we can, if we try hard enough, be the sort of truly just and righteous people God says we ought to be. That as though through enough effort and trying we can, indeed, climb some ladder of holiness and reach some state of moral improvement. Unfortunately when Christians continue to labor under such an errant idea one of two things tends to result: Pride or despair.

Pride comes about become some Christians manage to convince themselves that they've "achieved" something, usually by inventing fake moral laws like telling people not to drink, smoke, gamble, or watch R-rated movies (or equivalent). Laws which God has never commanded but which are far easier to obey than God's actual commandments such as "Love your enemy" and "Bless and do not curse". This moralistic pride is precisely the kind of hypocrisy and arrogance Jesus regularly condemns in the Gospels. When He condemns the parabolic Pharisee that boasts before God that he isn't like "those sinners", or when He calls a group of religious leaders a bunch of white washed tombs.

Despair comes about because usually one starts to reflect on their actions in light of what God commands (again, love your neighbor, love your enemy, bless and do not curse, etc) and they start to notice the pattern that no matter how much they try, they mess up. The reality of their inability to be that righteous person that they believe they ought to be will, usually, result in despair and turmoil. If a child continuously feels like they are disappointing a very strict parent, it's going to have an impact on that child's psyche. Which is what happens when we insist on only seeing God through the lens of His law.

Martin Luther in one of his more famous sermons said, "Anyone who regards Him as angry is not seeing Him correctly, but has pulled down a curtain and cover, more, a dark cloud over His face." The reason is this:

"But in Scriptural language 'to see His face' means to recognize Him correctly as a gracious and faithful Father, on whom you can depend for every good thing. This happens only through faith in Christ."

The reason this is only through faith in Christ is because it is only by the Gospel that we see the kind and friendly heart of God who says to us, erring and problem children though we are, "I love you, I forgive you, I accept you." Which is, of course, why we say it's good news. He is the good parent who does not hold our wrongs against us, but has declared His love for us and sought us out in Jesus. We were the woman caught in adultery, He said He did not condemn us. We were Zaccheus up in the tree, He told us He would have supper with us. We were the soldiers that crucified Him, and He pleaded God's forgiveness on us. And so we have Christ to see the friendly, fatherly heart of God, who graciously and freely forgives, loves, and accepts all that is us, broken bits and all.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes this is true and on the cross Jesus said of the soldiers to His father forgive them because they know not what they do. Of the Adulterous women when the high priests wanted to stone her Jesus said who condemns you now and she said no one. So if Jesus forgave her then she was truly forgiven and didn't deserve death under the law. Living according to your deeds of how good you are condemns you to be a slave to the law in both good and bad deeds. Forever living up to an impossible standard that we can adhere to.

But we also should realize that we are an example to others to glorify God. Just as God wanted to make the Israelite nation an example to others of Gods love and greatness. Just like the good slave who is obedient to his master to be an example to others at the time of Christ. It is to show Christ at work in our lives and to bring the glory to God. As Christians we should be apart from this world and be an example to others of living a good life in Christ and show the way. We should be bearing good fruits that show we are living with God in our hearts. As Jesus said you can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. So others should be able to see that we have God in our lives by the way we live.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Titus 2:7-8
7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[Euler]

Jesus said nothing about an adulterous woman. The story was added to the scriptures CENTURIES after the earliest manuscripts. It's not there in those early copies. It's an add-on.

 

[Cearbhall]

Why do you, as christians, need a reward of heaven to do good? Isn't doing good in itself enough?

I think the creation of the belief in an afterlife went the other way, actually. It seems to have been the result of Jewish people wondering why they were being oppressed and never rewarded even though they lived good lives.

Though I would say that the belief in Hell was most likely created to discourage people from doing certain things.

 

[stevevw]

The story about the adulterous women is said to be an addition to the gospel of John. But it is also said to be an oral story that may have originated from Jesus anyway. It is consistent with what Jesus taught. But what does that matter to a person who doesn't believe in the first place. What are we saying that its a false story in among a false gospel. Non believers dont believe any of it. If anything it shows that the writers did concern themselves with parts that were added as it is denoted in the original writings.

But for the point of what was said about Jesus not condemning someone under the law it consistent with other verses that Jesus said or was taught.
Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

 

[Soul2Soul]

A lot of christians ask me how I can have morals without God, but quite honestly, it's just instinctual to be good. We wouldn't survive very long as a species if we were all killing each other off. Why do you, as christians, need a reward of heaven to do good? Isn't doing good in itself enough?

I cannot agree with those who advocate that anyone who does not believe in God has no morals .... it is simply untrue IMO.


Bribe or reward? I certainly don't believe that the blood of Christ is a bribe to get to heaven ...... but in any case I do not believe that a Christian's morality is their "passport" to heaven.

 

[stevevw]

I cannot agree with those who advocate that anyone who does not believe in God has no morals .... it is simply untrue IMO.


Bribe or reward? I certainly don't believe that the blood of Christ is a bribe to get to heaven ...... but in any case I do not believe that a Christian's morality is their "passport" to heaven.

I think we all can know the morals of God whether we are a believer or not. The bible says they are written on our hearts and that we react by behaving like we are under those laws shows that we know of them and are without excuse. Its when this world and secular society may compromise, replace them, reinterpret/ reinvent them or corrupt them is where the issue lies. This stems from a worldly view that morality is subjective and there is no God so therefore there is no absolute morality. This allows individual views to become the guiding force and the person becomes the judge rather than God.

 

[TheDag]

You guys are a breath of fresh air. It's rare to hear a Christian (at least here) admit that they are better than no one else - Christian or not. Reps!

just out of curiosity how often does that scenario come up? I can't say I've seen many (if any) discussions where that needs to be said as part of the discussion. How much of that is personal interpretation of how the reader imagines it is being said?

 

[TheDag]

Nonsense. Secular morality (the only morality that we live by) does not specify what is 'good' in terms of people's individual determination. It is arrived at through a consensus of community values. These values may change over time, usually very slowly, but nevertheless represent behaviors that most of us are comfortable with.

This has been addressed many times. I'm surprised you don't have a better understanding.

but it has never been adequately explained who decided what they were each time. The answer would be people with influence which could simply mean those with the most money or most charismatic eg Jim Jones. Was that moral? If not then why not?

By the way Jellyfish?

If you want some fresh evidence of the link between racism and religiosity, jump over to the thread about 'What the Sherrif said'.

if that is your standard of evidence then you clearly are telling lies about there being no evidence of God. Or is it that when it suits you your standards for evidence change.
I'd love to see evidence.

I'd also like to see evidence that most racist people start sentences with "I'm not racist but...". Even if they do that does not mean they believe it is wrong. That is an assumption on your part.

5. and 6. These also do not relate to your claims about atheists. They seek to show theists in a better light.

And they are bunk.

When you remove the donating that the religious do to their own organizations, there is little difference between the religious and the non-religious in their generosity. The same applies to volunteering hours.

However, this again says NOTHING about your claims regarding atheists having no morality, or that "they don't want to apply higher morality or ethics in their lives."

This is your biased way of looking at it. What one should look at is the work done by these groups. In the area I live there are several religious organisations that help disadvantaged people. There is one that is not religious which is a womens shelter. Frankly so what if they are groups people are connected to. If they only helped those in the group then once again I would be fine with it being excluded but if they help those outside the group then it is still reasonable to include that.

Later in the thread you linked an article from a site. Please tell me how is that profiling any better than what you are complaining about others doing? honest answer is that it isn't.

Thank you.

For my own, the hate is nothing new. We've seen it for centuries and, for those of us who are open about our disbelief, we experience it daily. It's no biggie.

yeah it does happen although not as much of an issue here. It also happens both ways. The more prevalent view that comes across these days is hatred of christians here. So often though that behaviour is not acknowledged. There is one well known personality who is very much bigoted (a bigot is intolerant of others views) yet people love to quote this guy and praise him. They happily overlook his behaviour. Yet when we see something that needs personal opinion inserted to confirm bad behaviour by a christian then people are very quick to jump on it even though it is less clear.

 

[TheDag]

Patently false. Morals are made up or selected based on empathy, social agreement, and common sense. The easy thing to do is quite frequently not the moral thing. This is just an attempt to disparage the morality of those who don't follow biblical mores.

define social agreement, & common sense. It is easy to look at society and see there is no agreement. Sure mostly people agree on not killing others but what about how you treat others? There isn't even agreement on what killing others means! Some say as long as it doesn't harm others but then some consider mental abuse to not be harming others because they define harm as physical only while others would include mental abuse. Now if you want to say the law is that agreement then why do people campaign to change the law? If they accept it then it makes no sense to protest laws and try and change them.

Because a choice of what would be self deception is not a choice at all.

why is it not a choice? People seem happy to deceive themselves all the time. Why is this different? The level of the deception makes no difference as people will happily believe any deception if they want.

 

[TheDag]

A lot of christians ask me how I can have morals without God, but quite honestly, it's just instinctual to be good. We wouldn't survive very long as a species if we were all killing each other off. Why do you, as christians, need a reward of heaven to do good? Isn't doing good in itself enough?

Why do you make the definition of being good so narrow? I find it interesting that athiests often limit morals to what they can manage easily and then can say they are good. The interesting thing is that there is no clear way of defining good without something to tell us. If one uses the common answer of the community decides then we need to define what the community is. In the suburb of the city I live in there are people with several different views. Now if that is just one suburb then imagine trying to get consensus from a entire city or state or country! Just won't happen. If we say certain people decide then how do we choose those people? Why is survival of the species important?

Having said that I don't actually think about what happens after death. It just is not something I find worthwhile spending my time thinking about. So it isn't the reward that motivates me so the question is illogical for me.

Please note I have come in late and have not read the first 200 posts so sorry if this has been addressed.

 

[TheDag]

What absolute rot!

How about the 80 odd years that we spend here on this planet in the company of others!? How about adding to the quality of their existence, as well as our own? How about you leave a 'pleasant echo' here after you're gone, rather than a dull thud? Do you have no care about how your loved ones remember you?

What if your happiness and others happiness conflict? Whose happiness takes precedence. Why should I care about others. There are plenty of people out there who don't care about others and see nothing wrong with that so what makes you think we should care about others happiness?

Jesus said nothing about an adulterous woman.

Got any evidence for that? That it is not in the earliest manuscripts is not evidence of the claim. It is generally acknowledged that the earliest manuscripts are not complete.

So what? Who says there should be a "universal" purpose? Why can't every person find their OWN reason?

and if one persons reason conflicts with another then who get priority? Who loses? rock paper scissors perhaps?

Fine. How about how they feel about you while you're alive?

Why do we have to care what others think. We are indviduals aren't we?

Except, of course, for the responsibilities we have towards those who share this life with us!

what responsibilities? Who are you to decide if we have responsibilities to others or not? Sounds like you think we should have the same purpose.

It's disingenuous. The religious fear death more than non-believers do, they fight strongly against euthanasia and abortion, they are more likely to slip into a variety of mental illnesses over the death of a loved one, they desperately cling to the tales of near-death experiences indicating something 'beyond the grave'.

what is disingenuous is thinking just because people oppose euthansia and abortion that they must fear death. To assume that is appalling logic.

At my work place I would say I am the least fearful of death. Especially given recent events in this country it has sparked a lot of discussion and the responses by others are all very fearful. Mine is I will get on with life and if I happen to find myself in that kind of situation then it happens.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But we also should realize that we are an example to others to glorify God. Just as God wanted to make the Israelite nation an example to others of Gods love and greatness. Just like the good slave who is obedient to his master to be an example to others at the time of Christ. It is to show Christ at work in our lives and to bring the glory to God. As Christians we should be apart from this world and be an example to others of living a good life in Christ and show the way. We should be bearing good fruits that show we are living with God in our hearts. As Jesus said you can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. So others should be able to see that we have God in our lives by the way we live.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Titus 2:7-8
7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

What is necessary is an appropriate distinction between Law and Gospel, properly dividing the two and understanding our relationship to both.

The calling of the Law on our lives is, if we should sum it up neatly, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect". So, yes, absolutely we are called to, as the prophet said, "to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God". Or as Jesus instructed us, to be as salt and light.

That calling of the Law on us is very clear.

That is also why the Law clearly condemns us--because you and I don't do these things.

And is therefore why we must, again like the Publican, pray "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." In the tradition of the Orthodox East the greatest prayer, the one that is called the "Prayer of the Heart" or the Jesus Prayer is this: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Or in its shortest form, "Lord have mercy." Because Christian spirituality is not fundamentally not about our reaching up to God, but God coming down to us. In Lutheranism the heart of Lutheran spirituality is Confession and Absolution, like other liturgical churches we begin each Mass with the Penitential Rite corporately confessing our sins and hearing the Words of Absolution from the pastor. Because it is in this confessing of our sinfulness that we hear the Gospel, "Your sins are forgiven"; that word or promise is what God has spoken to all people by Jesus' cross.

The reality of the Gospel does not permit us to live lawless lives, it instead forgives our lawlessness so that we do not despair because of it. But the reality is always going to be that in this life you and I will continue to live and act lawlessly, through every effort we will continue to mess up.

So, yes, absolutely. We are called to be a people who love our neighbor, who freely give and ask nothing in return. We are called to bless the one that curses us, to treat kindly the one that hates us. Those that call us enemy we are to call friend and neighbor. We have an obligation to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, and welcome the foreigner. We are called, as the prophet Micah said, to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk with humility before God. That is what sort of people God's people are supposed to be.

But, and this is my point, we aren't. That doesn't mean don't try, we must try, but it does mean that we're going to fail more often than we succeed. We're not going to get there by trying--that's "righteousness by the Law" which Paul spoke about; or as I mentioned in my last post the opinio legis.

So here's a valid question: If it is that my works ultimately don't matter to God, and if no matter how hard I try to be the sort of person I believe God wants me to be I will fail and never be that person in this life--why bother at all?

And the answer is this: Because my neighbor still needs food in his belly. My neighbor still needs a roof over her head. My neighbor still needs water to drink, to be cared for, to be treated kindly and justly. That doesn't change.

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[stevevw]

What is necessary is an appropriate distinction between Law and Gospel, properly dividing the two and understanding our relationship to both.

The calling of the Law on our lives is, if we should sum it up neatly, "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect". So, yes, absolutely we are called to, as the prophet said, "to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God". Or as Jesus instructed us, to be as salt and light.

That calling of the Law on us is very clear.

That is also why the Law clearly condemns us--because you and I don't do these things.

And is therefore why we must, again like the Publican, pray "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." In the tradition of the Orthodox East the greatest prayer, the one that is called the "Prayer of the Heart" or the Jesus Prayer is this: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Or in its shortest form, "Lord have mercy." Because Christian spirituality is not fundamentally not about our reaching up to God, but God coming down to us. In Lutheranism the heart of Lutheran spirituality is Confession and Absolution, like other liturgical churches we begin each Mass with the Penitential Rite corporately confessing our sins and hearing the Words of Absolution from the pastor. Because it is in this confessing of our sinfulness that we hear the Gospel, "Your sins are forgiven"; that word or promise is what God has spoken to all people by Jesus' cross.

The reality of the Gospel does not permit us to live lawless lives, it instead forgives our lawlessness so that we do not despair because of it. But the reality is always going to be that in this life you and I will continue to live and act lawlessly, through every effort we will continue to mess up.

So, yes, absolutely. We are called to be a people who love our neighbor, who freely give and ask nothing in return. We are called to bless the one that curses us, to treat kindly the one that hates us. Those that call us enemy we are to call friend and neighbor. We have an obligation to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, and welcome the foreigner. We are called, as the prophet Micah said, to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk with humility before God. That is what sort of people God's people are supposed to be.

But, and this is my point, we aren't. That doesn't mean don't try, we must try, but it does mean that we're going to fail more often than we succeed. We're not going to get there by trying--that's "righteousness by the Law" which Paul spoke about; or as I mentioned in my last post the opinio legis.

So here's a valid question: If it is that my works ultimately don't matter to God, and if no matter how hard I try to be the sort of person I believe God wants me to be I will fail and never be that person in this life--why bother at all?

And the answer is this: Because my neighbor still needs food in his belly. My neighbor still needs a roof over her head. My neighbor still needs water to drink, to be cared for, to be treated kindly and justly. That doesn't change.

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes as Christ said the law can be summed up with one commandment and that was to love and help others as you love yourself and would want to be helped. If you have this heart and do this then you cover all that is good in the law and are having a heart after Christ.

But more than helping others we are actually made a new person in Christ that is thinking and living this way. We no longer live in sin and sin has no power over us. I like what Romans says in chapters 5 and 6 being dead to sin and alive in Christ. W are saved by Grace which then says we are longer under the law. But then Paul says does this in Chapter 5 verse 20 and 21 and then into Chapter 6 verse 1 to 4.
Romans 5: 20 to 21
20The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6: 1 to 4
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So yes we cannot under our own power keep the law with perfect obedience. It is only by grace that we are saved. By submitting to God and accepting His gift of Jesus. Then we die with Christs death on the cross and put to death our sinful natures. And we rise with Christ as He defeated sin and death and become a new person living in the spirit of God. The spirit of God cannot live with sin. So we become obedient to God because the spirit in us can only live like this. But we have to accept Gods gift and let the spirit of God in, So its a giving in to win and a letting go of self and a letting God. Doing Gods will and not your own will. It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me. This is the only way we can be counted as righteous to God.

 

[Euler]

What if your happiness and others happiness conflict? Whose happiness takes precedence. Why should I care about others. There are plenty of people out there who don't care about others and see nothing wrong with that so what makes you think we should care about others happiness?

Because you share your world with them. We have evolved to realize that our own happiness is often dependent upon contributing to the happiness of others.

Got any evidence for that? That it is not in the earliest manuscripts is not evidence of the claim. It is generally acknowledged that the earliest manuscripts are not complete.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can just as easily be dismissed without evidence."

There is NO evidence for the story having originally being recorded. There is, however, much evidence to show that it was concocted later.

and if one persons reason conflicts with another then who get priority? Who loses? rock paper scissors perhaps?

Really? An adult human has to ask that question? You know nothing about negotiation, consensus, empathy, compassion?

I feel for you.

Why do we have to care what others think. We are indviduals aren't we?

Asked and answered.

what responsibilities? Who are you to decide if we have responsibilities to others or not? Sounds like you think we should have the same purpose.

Asked and answered. You are boringly repetitive.

what is disingenuous is thinking just because people oppose euthansia and abortion that they must fear death. To assume that is appalling logic.

At my work place I would say I am the least fearful of death. Especially given recent events in this country it has sparked a lot of discussion and the responses by others are all very fearful. Mine is I will get on with life and if I happen to find myself in that kind of situation then it happens.

Go and do some research. You'll find that religious people, in general, have a greater fear of their deaths.

 

[TheDag]

Because you share your world with them. We have evolved to realize that our own happiness is often dependent upon contributing to the happiness of others.

yet it really doesn't seem to bother many people. Some seem to think they are happy with money or power and the more they have the better and stuff who gets hurt along the way. There is no denying that is certainly the view of some.

Really? An adult human has to ask that question? You know nothing about negotiation, consensus, empathy, compassion?

I feel for you.

a meaningless empty response that does not address the issue being discussed. So right and wrong is simply a matter of who has the best negotiating skills now. interesting. Haven't heard that one before. After all we are discussing motivations for doing right rather than wrong.

I know about empathy, negotiation, compassion & consensus. However you said it does not have to be the same so consensus can be ruled out. Compassion & empathy well yes if one cares about others. Not everyone does so what then? Negotiation. That relies on the other person being willing to negotiate. Some will just say nope my way or nothing. So what then? Does one just say oh well who cares about my dreams and desires I'll just go with what they say?

Asked and answered. You are boringly repetitive.

then perhaps you should not have been boringly repetitive by saying the same thing over and over. Once again lower standards for yourself than what you expect from others. It is also rather dishonest of you to say this in the first place considering the answer came in the very same post as these words. Really looks like you don't care for discussion. Not to mention one of the questions was actually different and your answer does not cover it.

Go and do some research. You'll find that religious people, in general, have a greater fear of their deaths.

So those who make the claim do not have to provide the evidence to back it up now? You did say those who make the claim should back it up. Have you changed your position on that since you are making a claim?

 

[Euler]

yet it really doesn't seem to bother many people. Some seem to think they are happy with money or power and the more they have the better and stuff who gets hurt along the way. There is no denying that is certainly the view of some.

'Some' who would be a very small minority. Do you often base your arguments on the lowest common denominator? I prefer to look at those characteristics which represent the majority.

a meaningless empty response that does not address the issue being discussed. So right and wrong is simply a matter of who has the best negotiating skills now. interesting. Haven't heard that one before. After all we are discussing motivations for doing right rather than wrong.

I listed 4 qualities, so you focus on just one of them and characterise it as 'simply' - you're not very good at this are you? Particularly when, in the next para, you -

I know about empathy, negotiation, compassion & consensus. However you said it does not have to be the same so consensus can be ruled out. Compassion & empathy well yes if one cares about others. Not everyone does so what then? Negotiation. That relies on the other person being willing to negotiate. Some will just say nope my way or nothing. So what then? Does one just say oh well who cares about my dreams and desires I'll just go with what they say?

Then acknowledge those qualities! Not so 'simply' after all huh!?

And again, you focus on the minority and try to make it representative. Intellectually dishonest. Yes, a small number of people will act contrarily. So what?

So those who make the claim do not have to provide the evidence to back it up now? You did say those who make the claim should back it up. Have you changed your position on that since you are making a claim?

Do some work for yourself! 30 seconds on Google under "religious fear death more" will provide you with plenty. It's what I did. If you need more, consult Dr Ryan Cragun's book Everything You Didn't Know About Religion. He has a wealth of stats for you to consider.