Why do you believe God created (1) lucifer and all other original angels, and (2) humans?

[martymonster]

I’m not seeing that. And none of the Bible Commentaries refer to Satan either.

So if you have no proof. I think your wrong.

I'm sorry, what do commentaries have to do with anything? Do you not have a Bible? Can you not think for yourself? Why don't you post some scripture to support you position?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm sorry, what do commentaries have to do with anything? Do you not have a Bible? Can you not think for yourself? Why don't you post some scripture to support you position?

Why do I need a verse to support a position if your verse never supported the position you took in the first place.

And yeah I checked it myself. Took my position but checked the Commentaries anyway.

Commentaries are good tools if you check five or six of the best ones which I did.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you know who Satan is, and what his function is, then you would know that this is talking about Satan.

Are you saying God created satan?
And to kill our flesh?

 

[GodsGrace101]

What world Adam was released to?

When Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, where were they banished to?
How did their children get married?

Just wondering.

 

[martymonster]

Are you saying God created satan?
And to kill our flesh?

I think it would be better said "destroy" the flesh. The flesh is a mindset, rather than our physical flesh, and needs to be destroyed.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, Satan is a necessary evil, you might say.

 

[Norbert L]

What I am asking is what do you believe was His ultimate purpose in creating the angels and the humans?

That God wants a family I can agree to. But that does not say WHY. And that was the question of the OP.

There's one verse I can think of that seems to speak about His inner intent. Why He does what He's doing Isaiah 61:8-9. It strikes me that love is what motivated God to create angels and humans.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Lucifer is a church doctrine.


H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

Satan is not The Morning Star, that is Christ. Satan is never refereed to as the morning star.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This verse is usually quoted to prove that Is 14:12 is talking about Satan once being some beautiful arch angel, but this is demonstrably false. Christ says that He saw Satan fall from Heaven, like lighting, but Heaven is not a geographical location. He's talking about the kingdom of heaven, which is within each one of us.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Go and read the parables about the kingdom, they do not read like a description of a some Disneyland in the sky.

Let's start with the parables. I love them, but I don't only live in the parables. What do you do with Jesus coming on the clouds--so everyone can see (Jesus and the angels confirmed this (Acts 1:10-11)--where is He coming from then? When the "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven"--whose heart is that city coming from, if your understanding is correct? (Rev 21:1-2) and for that matter if the first heaven and earth were passed away (Rev 21 and Matt 24:35-6) and there is now a new heaven and new earth, how could that happen if there was never a place called heaven in the first place? If there is no heaven, where do the angels descend from and return to? (John 1:51) It seems like the full testimony of Scripture seems to suggest that there will be something shared in which God is eternal to us and we will all have a shared, external to ourselves, experience of in Rev 21-22.

So what is your perspective, that Lucifer was just a light-bearing angel that got kicked off the mountain of God because of his pride and sentenced to hell, but is a completely different person than satan who is said to have pulled 1/3 of the stars with him and who was wandering to and fro on the earth and up and down in the earth?

Consider in both Isa 14 and Eze 28, that they may be describing satan before the fall (known as lucifer, then) and only afterwards, satan. satan simply means adversary. Lucifer means light-bearer. Lucifer wouldn't have been "adversary" when he was created. It wasn't until his pride got him kicked out of God's holy mountain (a dimension or location--which God clearly states in Scripture attributed to Him). According to 2 Cor 11:14: "No wonder, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light." We also know from the Book of Job that "there was a day that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and satan came also among them." (Job 1:6, 2:1) Since, God mocked satan: "From where have you come?" (As if God didn't know), it is certainly fair to assume that this is after God kicked him out of heaven. After all, why would God's light-bearing angel be stuck "walking to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it"?

Why would Jesus use satan's original glorious created name when satan lost that name through rebellion and was kicked out of heaven and responsible for a revolt of 1/3 of the angels? If Jesus saw an angel known as the light-bearing angel kicked out of heaven, isn't it possible that such an event could appear as lightning? That could certainly be if satan once was "the light-bearer" described in the Scriptures below as Lucifer.

SCRIPTURES TO CONSIDER:

"And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, 4 that thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say,

How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked,
and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
he that ruled the nations in anger,
is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet:
they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee,
and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth;
it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee,
Art thou also become weak as we?
art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave,
and the noise of thy viols:
the worm is spread under thee,
and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee,
and consider thee, saying,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,
that did shake kingdoms;
17 that made the world as a wilderness,
and destroyed the cities thereof;
that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations,
even all of them, lie in glory,
every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial,
because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people:
the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers;
that they do not rise, nor possess the land,
nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts.

24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying,
Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass;
and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 that I will break the Assyrian in my land,
and upon my mountains tread him under foot:
then shall his yoke depart from off them,
and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth:
and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts hath purposed,
and who shall disannul it?
and his hand is stretched out,
and who shall turn it back? (Isa 14:3-27)

"
The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God;

Because thine heart is lifted up,
and thou hast said, I am a God,
I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;
yet thou art a man, and not God,
though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 behold, thou art wiser than Daniel;
there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 with thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches,
and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 by thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches,
and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 therefore thus saith the Lord God;
Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations:
and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom,
and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit,
and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God?
but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers:
for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God;

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground,
I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities,
by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,
it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Eze 28:1-19)

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:3-10)

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think it would be better said "destroy" the flesh. The flesh is a mindset, rather than our physical flesh, and needs to be destroyed.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, Satan is a necessary evil, you might say.

How do you figure satan "destroys" the flesh if the flesh is what he works through?

It would seem to me that God sets out to destroy the flesh...
As you posted above in Romans 8, which is what it means.

 

[martymonster]

How do you figure satan "destroys" the flesh if the flesh is what he works through?

It would seem to me that God sets out to destroy the flesh...
As you posted above in Romans 8, which is what it means.

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Satan's job is to temp us and lead us into situations that cause us grief. This is how we learn to reject evil and grow. Even Christ had to have his flesh destroyed, and God used Satan to accomplish that.

 

[martymonster]

Let's start with the parables. I love them, but I don't only live in the parables. What do you do with Jesus coming on the clouds--so everyone can see (Jesus and the angels confirmed this (Acts 1:10-11)--where is He coming from then? When the "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven"--whose heart is that city coming from, if your understanding is correct? (Rev 21:1-2) and for that matter if the first heaven and earth were passed away (Rev 21 and Matt 24:35-6) and there is now a new heaven and new earth, how could that happen if there was never a place called heaven in the first place? If there is no heaven, where do the angels descend from and return to? (John 1:51) It seems like the full testimony of Scripture seems to suggest that there will be something shared in which God is eternal to us and we will all have a shared, external to ourselves, experience of in Rev 21-22.

So what is your perspective, that Lucifer was just a light-bearing angel that got kicked off the mountain of God because of his pride and sentenced to hell, but is a completely different person than satan who is said to have pulled 1/3 of the stars with him and who was wandering to and fro on the earth and up and down in the earth?

Consider in both Isa 14 and Eze 28, that they may be describing satan before the fall (known as lucifer, then) and only afterwards, satan. satan simply means adversary. Lucifer means light-bearer. Lucifer wouldn't have been "adversary" when he was created. It wasn't until his pride got him kicked out of God's holy mountain (a dimension or location--which God clearly states in Scripture attributed to Him). According to 2 Cor 11:14: "No wonder, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light." We also know from the Book of Job that "there was a day that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and satan came also among them." (Job 1:6, 2:1) Since, God mocked satan: "From where have you come?" (As if God didn't know), it is certainly fair to assume that this is after God kicked him out of heaven. After all, why would God's light-bearing angel be stuck "walking to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it"?

Why would Jesus use satan's original glorious created name when satan lost that name through rebellion and was kicked out of heaven and responsible for a revolt of 1/3 of the angels? If Jesus saw an angel known as the light-bearing angel kicked out of heaven, isn't it possible that such an event could appear as lightning? That could certainly be if satan once was "the light-bearer" described in the Scriptures below as Lucifer.

SCRIPTURES TO CONSIDER:

"And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, 4 that thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say,

How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked,
and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
he that ruled the nations in anger,
is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet:
they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee,
and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth;
it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee,
Art thou also become weak as we?
art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave,
and the noise of thy viols:
the worm is spread under thee,
and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee,
and consider thee, saying,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,
that did shake kingdoms;
17 that made the world as a wilderness,
and destroyed the cities thereof;
that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations,
even all of them, lie in glory,
every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial,
because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people:
the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers;
that they do not rise, nor possess the land,
nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts.

24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying,
Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass;
and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 that I will break the Assyrian in my land,
and upon my mountains tread him under foot:
then shall his yoke depart from off them,
and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth:
and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts hath purposed,
and who shall disannul it?
and his hand is stretched out,
and who shall turn it back? (Isa 14:3-27)

"
The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God;

Because thine heart is lifted up,
and thou hast said, I am a God,
I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas;
yet thou art a man, and not God,
though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 behold, thou art wiser than Daniel;
there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 with thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches,
and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 by thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches,
and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 therefore thus saith the Lord God;
Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations:
and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom,
and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit,
and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God?
but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers:
for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God;

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground,
I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities,
by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,
it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Eze 28:1-19)

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:3-10)

Just so you know, I'm not ignoring you, but you've written a short novel here, and I'm about to go to bed. I will address your post in the morning. I'm in Australia, btw.

 

[GodsGrace101]

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Satan's job is to temp us and lead us into situations that cause us grief. This is how we learn to reject evil and grow. Even Christ had to have his flesh destroyed, and God used Satan to accomplish that.

Agreed. Satan's job is to tempt us and lead us into situations that cause us grief.

But our flesh is not destroyed. Jesus had a flesh, it was tested and He passed the test. Not the same for us, we have all failed it. (from birth).

1 Corinthians 5:5
Someone in the church at Corinth was being immoral. Paul told them to bring this sin out into the open and to let the man defend himself - if he could. If he couldn't (which of course he couldn't) then he was to be dismissed from the church. Paul says this will be embarrassing to the person but better for him to be embarrassed now and change his mind about this sin, than to be damned forever in the after-life.

This is all it means. It does NOT mean that the man is given over to satan so satan could kill his flesh. The flesh is always with us.

This idea is also found in Romans 1:28 where it says that God gave some men over to a depraved mind. One could be of the spirit, or of the flesh. If one insists on being of the flesh, God will allow it - He does not force us to obey Him.

But the person is being turned over to the world, which is many times called "satan" in the N.T. since satan is the prince of the world.
2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, where were they banished to?
How did their children get married?

Just wondering.

You said another world. What other world?

world
wərld/
noun
noun: world; noun: the world
1.
the earth, together with all of its countries, peoples, and natural features.
"he was doing his bit to save the world"
synonyms: earth, globe, planet, sphere
"he traveled the world"

 

[GodsGrace101]

You said another world. What other world?

The world they were released to.
They were banned from the Garden.
Where do you think they were sent?
Into the world.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The world they were released to.
They were banned from the Garden.
Where do you think they were sent?
Into the world.

You said another world. Just wanted to make sure you weren’t talking space ships.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You said another world. Just wanted to make sure you weren’t talking space ships.

Do I look like somebody that believes in spaceships?????
I believe in a good cup of coffee!
LOL

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do I look like somebody that believes in spaceships?????
I believe in a good cup of coffee!
LOL

I've heard crazier things on CF in four years. Just asking for clarification.

I love coffee

 

[martymonster]

Agreed. Satan's job is to tempt us and lead us into situations that cause us grief.

But our flesh is not destroyed. Jesus had a flesh, it was tested and He passed the test. Not the same for us, we have all failed it. (from birth).

1 Corinthians 5:5
Someone in the church at Corinth was being immoral. Paul told them to bring this sin out into the open and to let the man defend himself - if he could. If he couldn't (which of course he couldn't) then he was to be dismissed from the church. Paul says this will be embarrassing to the person but better for him to be embarrassed now and change his mind about this sin, than to be damned forever in the after-life.

This is all it means. It does NOT mean that the man is given over to satan so satan could kill his flesh. The flesh is always with us.

This idea is also found in Romans 1:28 where it says that God gave some men over to a depraved mind. One could be of the spirit, or of the flesh. If one insists on being of the flesh, God will allow it - He does not force us to obey Him.

But the person is being turned over to the world, which is many times called "satan" in the N.T. since satan is the prince of the world.
2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

The flesh is not destroyed all at once, it is gradual. With every test we fail, and with every consequence we fail, the flesh dies a little more, but is the carnal mind that is being destroyed, not the outwardly flesh.
Yes, Christ was in the flesh, but he did not have a carnal mind, which is why he past all tests, with flying colours.

Sin is not just what we do, but what we are. We are flesh, and by extension, we are sin.


Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The flesh is not destroyed all at once, it is gradual. With every test we fail, and with every consequence we fail, the flesh dies a little more, but is the carnal mind that is being destroyed, not the outwardly flesh.
Yes, Christ was in the flesh, but he did not have a carnal mind, which is why he past all tests, with flying colours.

Sin is not just what we do, but what we are. We are flesh, and by extension, we are sin.


Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I disagree with your interpretation of these verses.

If we walk in the flesh, we will die (not our flesh). Believers can't "walk in the flesh" and "live in the Spirit". It is an either/or. The idea that we say we choose God, but every choice we make is about living in the flesh is someone who is openly mocking God. But Scripture says: "Be not deceived. God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life eternal." (Gal 6:7-8) He says that following a lengthy discussion in Galatians 5 about the works of the flesh verses the fruit of the Spirit. In Romans 8:1-17 also discusses the same topic in detail and reaches the same conclusions. "For if you live after the flesh, you will die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh, you will live." (Romans 8:13) "There is now therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I believe that God created humans for the same reason he created the angels. So that they could be with him in eternity. Gods original plans for angels and mankind was for his perfect creation to be with him and worship him forever. But mankind and some of the angels rebelled under the influence of Satan. Yes God foresaw this but he created humans and the angels anyway because he knew that some of his creation would be righteous. But why create the source of the problem? Why create Lucifer? If God never created Lucifer the curse of sin never would have entered the world.


But, there had to be a reason why God created Lucifer. Maybe it was love. Maybe it was because God wanted to give his creation the chance to not rebell. I don't know the reason I'm not God. But that is why God created us and the angels. He wanted a perfect creation to live with him and worship him forever.

I am inclined to agree that God planned for us to have the choice "for His good pleasure": willing worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. An autonomic response isn't real worship.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So was the devil created to rebel or only predestined to rebel? I believe that God created him because His plan for humanity needed an adversary.

Hmmm. What if Lucifer wasn't created to rebel, but God just knew he would, because of His omniscience outside of time, and allowed that, because of the glory it would bring Him? The fact that lucifer would created the need for God's powerful and glory-filled show of love, sacrifice, and a greater existence than was otherwise possible. The greater outcome for God, angels and man was made possible through genuine choice. What "good pleasure" is found in that which can only do what you determine it can do? But when something can legitimately choose against you (and even see temporary benefits of doing so) then one willing to make those temporary sacrifices to choose you really means something. I think of Abraham, the father of our faith. He was willing to send away one son and sacrifice another out of obedience to God. He was willing to leave everything he knew to follow God. In short, He believed God. Others didn't. His relationship with Abraham meant something to God. His relationship with Moses meant something to God. In fact, we will sing the song of Moses in heaven, according to the Scriptures (Rev 15:3) His relationship with David meant something to God. His relationship with those who genuinely choose Him, in the face of whatever motivation they have to go the other way, matters to God.