Why do we reject praying to the saints?

[Glorthac]

I'm not here to dispute TULIP or anything, which I firmly believe are biblical.
But why do we reject praying to the saints? Here's the argument (in my messy terms) that got me supporting this non-Protestant doctrine:
Jesus' death conquerered death for the elect. This is why Jesus says His Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Since there is only one undivided body of Christ, the saints who have died physically are really alive in heaven thanks to Jesus' death. There, we can talk to them as if they were never dead, but alive and in full communion with us.
As for the word prayer, the argument goes that there is no difference between talking to man and talking to God other than the fact that man is less holy than God. So, its not the mode of communication that's the difference, but the holiness of the one communicated to.

I know this is terribly anti-Protestant of me, but it got me thinking. The average answer is Jesus' death only conquers death through the resurrection, so the dead are dead spiritually too. I just don't know what to say to this debate, it just seems so... wrong to think that.

Anything incredibly scholarly but short would be helpful.

 

[green wolverine]

I'm no scholar, but why would you feel you needed the intercession of anyone but Jesus???

 

[AMR]

I suppose the answer comes from what your view of prayer happens to be. Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving, and Supplication (ACTS) is the biblical view of prayer and how "the saints" would figure into the ACTS form of communion with God escapes me, especially given the Biblical admonition that we have only one mediator, Jesus Christ.

AMR

 

[GrinningDwarf]

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 Timothy 2:5

'nuf said.

 

[Glorthac]

If I might play the devils advocate here (as I'm still on the fence), then why do we ask for our friends to pray for us? The only difference between that and "prayer" to the saints is the saints are physically dead.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

If I might play the devils advocate here (as I'm still on the fence), then why do we ask for our friends to pray for us? The only difference between that and "prayer" to the saints is the saints are physically dead.

Fair enough...

Can you provide one example of anybody in Scriptures asking dead people to pray for them? The only place I'm aware of anybody in Scipture contacting a dead person was when Saul contacted Samuel through the Witch of Endor...and that wasn't exactly a sterling moment for Saul. If that is the only Scriptural precedent, I think you'd be on pretty shaky ground.

 

[Missionary Joshua]

If I might play the devils advocate here (as I'm still on the fence), then why do we ask for our friends to pray for us? The only difference between that and "prayer" to the saints is the saints are physically dead.

I would like to add a few things to what our reformed brothers have answered.

1.) As one who is elect in Christ we are Saints. Being alive or dead plays no part in that fact. So it would be like praying to ourselves.
2.) We are commanded by God to pray for each other, the dead don't need prayer because they are in the care of the Almighty in either Grace or Wrath.
3.) The prayer to the saints in say a Catholic or Orthodox system is to request a portion of grace from one of the Saints because they have stored up extra grace that they don't need in the "Heavenly Treasury". Since Christ is the end all be all of our salvation, and covers our sins, past, present, and future we have no need for anything from anybody else. God has provided everything we need in a salvific sense.

 

[Judson]

I agree with Joshua. The RC and EO doctrine of prayers to the Saints, while sounding a lot like simple intercession, is built upon the idea that the Saints have somehow stored up more merit and are in a better position to ask Christ for things on your behalf. This goes against Eph 1 and 2, where we have been given "every spiritual blessing in Christ," and are already "seated with him in the heavenly places."

A couple of other problems with praying TO the Saints. Jesus taught us "when you pray, say, 'Our Father'." It's pretty clear that prayer goes to God alone. Asking for intercession from friends is not the same as a prayer. Prayer goes to God alone for he alone is worthy; intercession is still prayer.

On a rational level, consider this. What makes you think that a Saint in heaven can hear your prayer, or is able to do anything for you? Assuming that dead saints are still human, and are not omniscient, and omnipresent, what makes anyone think that they know who's praying to them, and when? Suppose there are millions of people who pray to a particular saint?

Again, the whole concept harks back to the idea that we are need of heavenly mediation beyond what God has already provided in Jesus Christ. I think prayers to the saints and the veneration of saints and Mary grossly undermines the supremacy of Christ, IMO.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Ok I'll be devil's advocate:

But don't we ask other [physically living saints] people to pray for us?

There are no dead Saints in Christ, even though we see their physical death.
So....(fill in the blank)

 

[Judson]

Yes we do. But we do it because we know that they are listening and we have a good confidence that they will actually entreat God and pray for us.

This is different from the RC/EO practice and belief. How do they know that the saints are listening? They are still finite and not omnipresent, even if they are in heaven.

Also, listen to how they pray to them. They don't typically say "Mary, ask Jesus to do such and such." They say "Mary, save us!" They literally pray to the saints!

Who says they possess authority and power to do perform such deeds for us?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Yes...Mary is an exception to this actually.

As a former Catholic I never heard anyone say "St. Jude...please save us!"
It's always "St. Jude, pray for us."
I agree about the way they "pray to" Mary is a bit off.

But the other saints are just simple intercessions from my experience.


I'll be honest with ya fellas...I find myself now and again asking my deceased Grandma to pray for me. Can she hear me? Who knows. I would hope she's too busy up there.
It's human instinct to endear their loved ones to GOD.

Is that bad? No. Is it sin? No.
BUT BUT BUT:

If I prayed for my deceased Grandma to save me...that would be very very misguided and an actual sin IMHO.

 

[Judson]

I think in some prayers they actually do ask the saint directly.

there's that story of Luther crying out, "St. Anne Help me! I will become a monk."

I think if done analogously with asking for intercession, there's nothing wrong with it. For me, it just goes against my conscience and I don't have any confidence that they can hear me.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I think in some prayers they actually do ask the saint directly.

there's that story of Luther crying out, "St. Anne Help me! I will become a monk."

I think if done analogously with asking for intercession, there's nothing wrong with it. For me, it just goes against my conscience and I don't have any confidence that they can hear me.

I respect that brother.
Devil's advocate remember?

 

[bricklayer]

If prayer is communication with God, it most certinly is not a dialogue.
We do not dialogue with God, He condescends to us.

In a dialogue, there is a cause and effect sequence wherein a cause has an effect and that effect becomes a cause and that has an effect which becomes a cause, etc.

In communication with God (prayer) there is also a cause and effect sequence, but what God "says" is always the cause and what we say is always the effect. That is a condescension.

If an author wants to communicate with one of his characters, and essentially do a cameo in his own book, he can. That literary technique is a condescension.

We don't cause God to do anything.
The prayer of faith is effective not affective.

 

[bibleblevr]

I'm not here to dispute TULIP or anything, which I firmly believe are biblical.
But why do we reject praying to the saints? Here's the argument (in my messy terms) that got me supporting this non-Protestant doctrine:
Jesus' death conquerered death for the elect. This is why Jesus says His Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Since there is only one undivided body of Christ, the saints who have died physically are really alive in heaven thanks to Jesus' death. There, we can talk to them as if they were never dead, but alive and in full communion with us.
As for the word prayer, the argument goes that there is no difference between talking to man and talking to God other than the fact that man is less holy than God. So, its not the mode of communication that's the difference, but the holiness of the one communicated to.

I know this is terribly anti-Protestant of me, but it got me thinking. The average answer is Jesus' death only conquers death through the resurrection, so the dead are dead spiritually too. I just don't know what to say to this debate, it just seems so... wrong to think that.

Anything incredibly scholarly but short would be helpful.

I was raised a protestent, but I treid praying a hail Mary, and I felt the presance of God powerfully and immediatly. I found that asking for Mary's prayers is extremly powerful. I raised all the same objections that you guys have, but God proved it to me, undisputebly. Give the hail Mary a try with an open mind, and at the end, ask mary to prove herself, also ask God to prove her if she can truly interceed.

By the way, I see your symbol says you are catholic, but are also full TULIP, I have felt God has ben calling me to catholisisum latly. ( strange because I don't know and catholics, and I have never been to a mass) However, I don't accept their veiws of salvation, can I still be catholic If I don't agree with them? are their RC churches that are reformed? PM me please,