Why do We have to put up with tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep in The Church ?

[Not David]

Because those are the people who may need the Church the most.

I'm going to relay an important story I heard from Abbot Tryphon that really changed how I think.
There was once a monk in a monastery who was not a good monk. He could not do anything right. He was late to services. He ruined the food when it was his turn to cook. He lost all the sheep because he fell asleep while watching them. His cassock was a mess; even his work cassock was in awful condition. He was awkward around visitors. He always messed up making a prayer rope. He could only sing in tones 9-12 being suuuuper off key. He made mistakes whenever he served in the Liturgy. He broke the fast a few times and had even tried to sneak a sausage into his cell during Great Lent. He just could not be a good monk! This went on for years!
When it was getting to the end of this poor monk's life, the rest of the brotherhood gathered in his cell as he lay on his deathbed. As the rest of the brotherhood was praying over him, a choir of angels appeared and sang the Trisagion over his deathbed! Wow! But, the rest of the brotherhood was upset; why did this sorry excuse of a monk get a choir of angels at his deathbed, this makes no sense! They asked the angels why they were there for this awful awful monk? They listed his faults and asked, why? One of the angels turned to the monk and said to tell them why. The monk said, "When I first came to this monastery, I was a young man who wanted to serve God. After the first week, I realized it would not be an easy life here and I wouldn't be perfect. So, I decided that I would never judge anyone ever again for the rest of my life because that would probably be the only way I would be able to go to heaven." The angels told the other monks, "That is why the Lord sent us to his deathbed." And with that, the monk fell asleep.

I don’t know how that stories helps. It just seems like an excuse for not doing your best. What do I know though?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don’t know how that stories helps. It just seems like an excuse for not doing your best.

it's actually not. it's very hard to see your sins and therefore not judge others.

 

[Not David]

it's actually not. it's very hard to see your sins and therefore not judge others.

I don’t know Father, I know I might be a wicked person but that should not prevent me from calling out harmful actions

 

[JohnTh]

I'm going to relay an important story I heard from Abbot Tryphon that really changed how I think.
There was once a monk in a monastery who was not a good monk. He could not do anything right. He was late to services. He ruined the food when it was his turn to cook. He lost all the sheep because he fell asleep while watching them. His cassock was a mess; even his work cassock was in awful condition. He was awkward around visitors. He always messed up making a prayer rope. He could only sing in tones 9-12 being suuuuper off key. He made mistakes whenever he served in the Liturgy. He broke the fast a few times and had even tried to sneak a sausage into his cell during Great Lent. He just could not be a good monk! This went on for years!
When it was getting to the end of this poor monk's life, the rest of the brotherhood gathered in his cell as he lay on his deathbed. As the rest of the brotherhood was praying over him, a choir of angels appeared and sang the Trisagion over his deathbed! Wow! But, the rest of the brotherhood was upset; why did this sorry excuse of a monk get a choir of angels at his deathbed, this makes no sense! They asked the angels why they were there for this awful awful monk? They listed his faults and asked, why? One of the angels turned to the monk and said to tell them why. The monk said, "When I first came to this monastery, I was a young man who wanted to serve God. After the first week, I realized it would not be an easy life here and I wouldn't be perfect. So, I decided that I would never judge anyone ever again for the rest of my life because that would probably be the only way I would be able to go to heaven." The angels told the other monks, "That is why the Lord sent us to his deathbed." And with that, the monk fell asleep.

Yep. Definitely not a singular case.

 

[JohnTh]

it's actually not. it's very hard to see your sins and therefore not judge others.

Saint Isaac & Saint John of the Ladder say that it is basically impossible. It needs God's grace.

I fully agree with them, and this is not only because they are just huge saints.

 

[JohnTh]

I don’t know how that stories helps. It just seems like an excuse for not doing your best

Ok, do not do your best - just do what that monk did. I guarantee you that you will have the same ending.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don’t know Father, I know I might be a wicked person but that should not prevent me from calling out harmful actions

that's you judging actions, not the person doing the actions.

 

[E.C.]

I don’t know how that stories helps. It just seems like an excuse for not doing your best. What do I know though?

The story is meant to be a point that we shouldn't judge others. Do our best, yes, but we can't even say that one person's best is another person's worst. We all have our own trials and demons.

And, quite frankly, I find it decidedly un-Orthodox for the OP to cast judgment on others. Like Black Panther said, "We don't do that here" (or at least not supposed to do that here). If the OP has a problem with a fellow parishioner than he should to talk to his priest or the person(s) involved. I'll be frank, I'm very far from being the poster child of what an Orthodox Christian should/shouldn't be, but judging others is not what we do.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The story is meant to be a point that we shouldn't judge others. Do our best, yes, but we can't even say that one person's best is another person's worst. We all have our own trials and demons.

And, quite frankly, I find it decidedly un-Orthodox for the OP to cast judgment on others. Like Black Panther said, "We don't do that here" (or at least not supposed to do that here). If the OP has a problem with a fellow parishioner than he should to talk to his priest or the person(s) involved. I'll be frank, I'm very far from being the poster child of what an Orthodox Christian should/shouldn't be, but judging others is not what we do.

It's a legitimate question.

I'm just asking "in general" why The Church has to put up with people like Nestorius, Arius, insincere subverters etc.

.

 

[E.C.]

It's a legitimate question.

I'm just asking "in general" why The Church has to put up with people like Nestorius, Arius, insincere subverters etc.

.

Ah.

Firstly, I apologize if I came off a bit harsh. I've been seeing and hearing too many "how do we put up with people not as holy as me" types of questions (both on CF at large and in the real world) and those types of questions really get under my skin. We're Christians, we're supposed to pray for our enemies. Moving on....



Well, we continue to do what we did back then: call a council, hear their defense, pray, and write up a decision (or canon) afterwards. If they are indeed preaching heresy than we defrock and excommunicate. If they see the errors of their ways than we give them the chance to repent. Christ would have even forgiven Judas had he not killed himself. You can't really execute people because that'll just make their own movement grow. You could throw them in prison, but some supporter or another back then would try to break them out.

We put up with them because as false as their theologies are, we (as a Church) need those kinds of trials; and some good came of them. Because of Arius we now have the Nicene Creed, so when people ask what we believe we can refer to that and break it down by section if necessary. Because of Nestorius we can now articulate why we call Mary the Theotokos and how denying her Theotokos-ness is really a denial of Christ's divinity.

 

[Not David]

The story is meant to be a point that we shouldn't judge others. Do our best, yes, but we can't even say that one person's best is another person's worst. We all have our own trials and demons.

And, quite frankly, I find it decidedly un-Orthodox for the OP to cast judgment on others. Like Black Panther said, "We don't do that here" (or at least not supposed to do that here). If the OP has a problem with a fellow parishioner than he should to talk to his priest or the person(s) involved. I'll be frank, I'm very far from being the poster child of what an Orthodox Christian should/shouldn't be, but judging others is not what we do.

To be honest I don’t think he was thinking of anyone in specific. Just worry about the Church.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Ah.

Firstly, I apologize if I came off a bit harsh. I've been seeing and hearing too many "how do we put up with people not as holy as me" types of questions (both on CF at large and in the real world) and those types of questions really get under my skin. We're Christians, we're supposed to pray for our enemies. Moving on....



Well, we continue to do what we did back then: call a council, hear their defense, pray, and write up a decision (or canon) afterwards. If they are indeed preaching heresy than we defrock and excommunicate. If they see the errors of their ways than we give them the chance to repent. Christ would have even forgiven Judas had he not killed himself. You can't really execute people because that'll just make their own movement grow. You could throw them in prison, but some supporter or another back then would try to break them out.

We put up with them because as false as their theologies are, we (as a Church) need those kinds of trials; and some good came of them. Because of Arius we now have the Nicene Creed, so when people ask what we believe we can refer to that and break it down by section if necessary. Because of Nestorius we can now articulate why we call Mary the Theotokos and how denying her Theotokos-ness is really a denial of Christ's divinity.

That's what I was thinking.

The Lord allows these types of people to bring about some greater good kind of thing.


.

 

[Hiep]

(Orthodox Only Please)

I wanted to ask why do we have to put up with tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep even with in Orthodoxy.

Why doesn't The Lord drive these people out ?

Another question I have is why does The Holy Spirit show us who people really are but yet we still have to deal with them and put up with their deception and evil ?



.

An enemy today can be friends to tomorrow, so we have to put up with tares. If god drives them out now innocent people will be caught in the cross-fire. That's another parable in the Bible.

 

[Coolbutclueless]

Because us goats are trying.

 

[Light of the East]

It is not fun being a goat. It is not enjoyable to realize during your prayer time that you have spent the day judging other people when you should not have. It is not fun realizing that you are making little to no progress in becoming a wheat instead of a tare. It is not fun (just sharing my honest feelings here) feeling that God is displeased that you are so judgmental, harsh, unloving, egotistical (I could go on for a while here) etc and yet think so highly of yourself.

It is not fun precisely because one can see what one should be when you look at the lives of the saints, the monks at Mount Athos, and even other people who are much more loving than you have ever dared to become. No, it is not fun to be what you do not wish to be after having received so much enlightenment into the true way. It is not fun to realize that after years of trying (poorly at best) to keep the Great Fast, the Friday Fast, the holy days of the Church, etc., that you have made such little progress.

I think I'll do a blog piece about this called "It Ain't Fun Being a Tare."

Cause it ain't!

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

It is not fun being a goat. It is not enjoyable to realize during your prayer time that you have spent the day judging other people when you should not have.

I don't think that you are a goat.

Here's another question, what's the difference between having "Legitimate Discernment" from The Holy Spirit about someone Vs "Judging" someone ?


.

 

[Euodius]

I know I’ll come off about as popular as a snickers bar in a swimming pool for saying this, but I’m tired of people focusing on the negatives of our Church. I’m sick of hearing about the Ecumenical Patriarch, Ukraine, gay-loving liberals in the church, etc. They’re an extreme minority, and this idea about us having some bad apples being such a shocker would do well to look back at some of the peaches we’ve had in the Church like Nestorius, Arius, etc. For every one of those heretic weasels we’ve had Sts. John Chrysostom, John of Shanghai, Seraphim of Sarov, Herman of Alaska, Nicholas, Athanasius, etc. For every small minority evolution-teaching gay sympathizer we’ve had our Father Seraphim Roses and Father Schmemanns.

where there are human beings, there will be bafoons and self-absorbed types who lose their way. There is a reason that “again and again” we pray so hard for our clergy and bishops!

I don’t have time to dwell on clergy sins and opinions as I’m personally a mess!! I have observed, and I don’t know the OP, that most people dwelling on this stuff are newbies and young zealots. Lord, save us from hyperdoxy and bless us with mirrors!!

Why is Fr. Schmemann so popular? I am very suspicious of Fr. Schmemann, because the way he writes (like a French intellectual) scares me (there's very little in this world as scary as French intellectuals.) He always seems to speak in dialectics of opposition, opening a void in between poles and inverting hierarchical natures.

I once scratched a hole into the palm of my hand because of Schmemann related anxiety during a conversation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why is Fr. Schmemann so popular? I am very suspicious of Fr. Schmemann, because the way he writes (like a French intellectual) scares me (there's very little in this world as scary as French intellectuals.) He always seems to speak in dialectics of opposition, opening a void in between poles and inverting hierarchical natures.

I once scratched a hole into the palm of my hand because of Schmemann related anxiety during a conversation.

Fr Alexander had some off theology, but he really got people to commune again, really pushed that American Orthodoxy should be American, and really had a pastor's heart. I think his virtues far outweigh his errors.

plus, Fr Alexander was right on a lot of things.

 

[Help In Ministry]

(Orthodox Only Please)

I wanted to ask why do we have to put up with tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep even with in Orthodoxy.

Why doesn't The Lord drive these people out ?

Another question I have is why does The Holy Spirit show us who people really are but yet we still have to deal with them and put up with their deception and evil ?



.

Sometimes, we need to hit rock bottom before we can realize the true benefits of a godly life. This sermon, The Prayer That Brought the Rain describes this very circumstance in one man’s life.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

While I readily and obviously confess you are far more learned about theology and Father Alexander than myself, what errors or "offness" did he give off? I never read anything of his that put me ill at ease or smelled of heresy or error? But, like I said, I've only read a few of his works. You have a more voluminous mental library of Orthodoxy than yours truly.

Father Alexander my my priest's theology teacher in seminary at St. Vladimir's. Father George was profoundly impacted, blessed, and inspired by Father Alexander. It shows. He also had Father Meyendorff, one of my favorites, as his father confessor. I can't imagine the holy upbringing as a priest Father underwent having these two wonderful men in his life at such a critical juncture!

Anyway, I'm in the dark as to what you and Euodius are talking about.....his views on contraception and family planning maybe? I'm not sure.

Fr Alexander had some off theology, but he really got people to commune again, really pushed that American Orthodoxy should be American, and really had a pastor's heart. I think his virtues far outweigh his errors.

plus, Fr Alexander was right on a lot of things.