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Why do We have to put up with tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep in The Church ?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wanted to ask why do we have to put up with tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep even with in Orthodoxy.

    Why doesn't The Lord drive these people out ?

    Another question I have is why does The Holy Spirit show us who people really are but yet we still have to deal with them and put up with their deception and evil ?



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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  2. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    edit

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  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Remember to always ask yourself if you are wheat or a tare. Or something else.

    I use the icon of The Ladder of Divine Ascent as my avatar. It portrays monks climbing the Ladder to heaven while demons are trying to snatch them back down. Some monks are falling on their own. All the while St. John Climacus is encouraging them to climb.

    On any given day I'm not sure where I am in that picture.
     
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  4. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm meaning it mostly referring to people who are insincere and were never really Christians and never will be.

    I'm not talking about sincere people who have struggles with sin. (I can deal with that.)

    I'm talking about people who are just plain evil who want to destroy Christianity, deceive us, subvert The Church, infiltrate The Church etc.


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  5. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    There's plenty of those around. It's one of the reasons I come to this forum. I try to counter them in the hope that no one will be persuaded by anything they have to say.

    But remember that most of the new testament was written to counter gnostics and antinomianism and judaizers. It been going on since the beginning.
     
  6. Lady Donna Marie

    Lady Donna Marie Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  7. Lady Donna Marie

    Lady Donna Marie Well-Known Member

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    I think it all depends upon what position a person is in someone's life to determine if they are wheat or tares and yet God came for both. If one let's it it can help them to learn how to love the tares.
     
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  8. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe He is trying to give them time to repent ?


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  9. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    It may take longer for some unsaved to realize they need Christ.
     
  11. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    During this age satan has his. May be that is to continue to show satan he is no god, his tares are doomed, his created world/universe is doomed, his possession and prince of all the kingdoms will end.
     
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  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    because on my own, the more I think of myself as sheep or wheat, the more of a goat and tare I am.
     
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  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I can't remember which of the desert fathers said so (I want to say Abba Isaiah, but I was wrong last time about Abba Arsanios, so I'm not going to guess), but it was observed by one of them that true humility is to recognize that you have done nothing good before God.

    If you do that, I suspect that the spiritual status of any other person will stop taking up any space in your mind.
     
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  14. AMM

    AMM A Beggar Supporter

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    Reminds me of one of my favorite stories (and one of the first Orthodox stories I’d heard), Abba Sisoes on his death bed. To paraphrase: His disciples say, “father you’re perfect” and he responds, “truly I do not know if I have even begun to repent.”

    Whenever I start to think that I’ve done something good and holy, I try to recall this great saint. And then I realize that I, too, still cling to my sins and have repented only in words, and my heart is still in need of Christ’s purification and great mercy
     
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  15. AMM

    AMM A Beggar Supporter

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    To be fair, Christ does answer this question in the parable, if I’m remembering correctly (tearing up the tares now, would also destroy some wheat). But at the same time - the interpretation of that is not necessarily clear, and I think that’s what the answers are trying to explain (for example - many people appear to be tares/wheat now, but when fully ripened we will see clearly that some who are thought to be tares are actually wheat, and vice versa)
     
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  16. Lady Donna Marie

    Lady Donna Marie Well-Known Member

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    Prayer for the day!
    The crown of all good works consist in this. That one place their hope in God. That one flees to Him once and for all with all your heart and strength and that you be filled with compassion for all and weep before God imploring His help and mercy.

    Holy Father Isaiah of 458AD
     
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  17. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    the only one I can judge inside of the Orthodox Church is myself, and even then I am often too lenient.
     
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  18. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I know I’ll come off about as popular as a snickers bar in a swimming pool for saying this, but I’m tired of people focusing on the negatives of our Church. I’m sick of hearing about the Ecumenical Patriarch, Ukraine, gay-loving liberals in the church, etc. They’re an extreme minority, and this idea about us having some bad apples being such a shocker would do well to look back at some of the peaches we’ve had in the Church like Nestorius, Arius, etc. For every one of those heretic weasels we’ve had Sts. John Chrysostom, John of Shanghai, Seraphim of Sarov, Herman of Alaska, Nicholas, Athanasius, etc. For every small minority evolution-teaching gay sympathizer we’ve had our Father Seraphim Roses and Father Schmemanns.

    where there are human beings, there will be bafoons and self-absorbed types who lose their way. There is a reason that “again and again” we pray so hard for our clergy and bishops!

    I don’t have time to dwell on clergy sins and opinions as I’m personally a mess!! I have observed, and I don’t know the OP, that most people dwelling on this stuff are newbies and young zealots. Lord, save us from hyperdoxy and bless us with mirrors!!
     
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  19. Lady Donna Marie

    Lady Donna Marie Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  20. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    Funny thing is, for me, when I first was discerning Orthodoxy in 2011 (got chrismated 2012, and I'm now an ordained Reader), I was fascinated and concerned with how Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox differed. Nowadays, I think little of these things if at all. My kids (two out of three still) attend a Lutheran school here in town. The Lutherans that run the place are great folks. They value their liturgy, their Bible, their worship, and they're nice folks. I disagree with them on some key issues. Same with Catholics. Two of my dear friends are Catholics. Sometimes I share the disagreement or divergence, but normally not.

    I am constantly concerned that I could become that pharisee who obsesses on straining gnats and will let the wounded, sick man pass right under my feet as the Samaritan Protestant or Catholic actually cares for him and does God's work while I judge. I don't want to focus on where others fall short or differ anymore. I tell people I'm Orthodox. If they ask, I explain and am not shy, embarrassed, or afraid to do so. But I don't want to be a show-off or condescending. There's such a fine line with this stuff.

    Orthodoxy always impressed and continues to impress me in that it is 100% anti-ecumenism (thumbs up) and yet very kind to other Christian communities. It refuses to give up squat, but it also does not look down on the other sects of Christianity as doomed. We admit we don't know where Protestants and Catholics fit into God's plans. We don't pretend they're damned nor do we feign the ability to assure their salvation any more than our own. We hope for the best for them, pray for them, but don't look down on them. Most Protestants I know I consider holier than me honestly. I'm a joke. On judgment day, many people will be surprised who is getting into heaven.

    Another phenomenon that I see with hyperdox folks is the need to trash, belittle, pity, and blast their former churches. I've tried to just look back with fondness on those from whom I learned. My Anglican priest was a great guy. I learned about the Theotokos to some degree from Catholicism along with a piety around confession, the Eucharist, and sacraments. From Anglicanism I learned about worship community, the Bible, and that there can be catholicism without Catholicism.....only the fullness I needed could only come from Orthodoxy.

    I think we need an anti-hyperdox greeter in TAW! These new young folks coming in can drive me nuts LOL


     
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