Why Do We Get Onto the Rich About Taxes?

[Aldebaran]

Trump's a moron. There's exactly zero evidence that if you give the wealthy more money it benefits everyone else. It only benefits the wealthy.

If I cheated on my taxes to the tune of millions of dollars, they'd throw me in jail for a decade...and that's exactly what should happen to the very wealthy who cheat on their taxes. Let some of them rot and die in prison then we'll see what the rest of them do.

This is one of the phrases I hear from people all the time--that someone is advocating that we give money to the wealthy. If they're being taxed already at a higher rate than everyone else, they're not being given anything. Also, if everyone's tax rate percentage was lowered equally, then nobody is being given anything.
It seems that allowing someone to keep something that's already theirs is seen as giving them something.

 

[evoeth]

In fact, the top 40% of earners in this country pay 106% of the taxes!

Incorrect.

They pay 106% of the income taxes.

FICA(social security & medicare) constitute 50% of all federal taxes and they are regressive. Lower income earners pay one rate, higher income earner pay a lower effective rate because of the FICA cap. For instance, both my wife and myself exceed the FICA cap and pay a lower share of our income in FICA than (most likely) you do.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So, I'm wondering, as a capitalist who believes people should get to keep more of what they earn, why we need to keep placing an even larger and larger burden on those who the money and are already keeping everything afloat as it is.

We already have many entitlements, grants, and tax breaks for those making less. Why do we need to keep giving them more and more?

The issue for me is the economy and political entity of a country is a complex system. You cant just change the tax rate and expect everything else to be equal.

Its like you can change the color of a car, fine, but meddle with the drive belt and there are all kinds of changes. Or like a fin on a fish, it may seem like a small adaptation, but its actually pretty useful. Take it away and the whole dynamic changes. Because people vote as citizens and part of such a complex system, they they have every right to try to fine tune the whole.

I think maybe then the average citizen will be better off.

If you just cut taxes for instance, maybe what will happen is the cost of champagne will rise due to increased demand, or the upper end property markets will bubble and mortgages increase. All that "extra cash" evaporates due to increased niche costs and expenditure. Not to mention the people dying downtown form lack of medical care etc.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I've never heard about anything that has been said here. All I've heard is that the rich can afford to pay more taxes and won't be struggling if they do, while the poor can't afford to pay more taxes and will be in trouble if they do.
I agree that people shouldn't be abusing the forms of welfare there are, but at the same time there are many poorer people who could not survive without them. Some of them can't get a job and the welfare is all they have for support.

The poor will always be with us. Lift them out of poverty and another group, waiting in the wings, will replace them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

math.

The bottom line doesn't always tell the story.
Citizen A makes $100 and pays $10 in taxes.
Citizen B makes $1,000,000 and pays $100 in taxes.
Who paid more?

The article is only addressing federal income tax. Many, maybe even most, who get every nickle back that was paid in federal income tax still pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, state & local taxes, gas taxes. If they happen to be fortunate enough to buy property/house they will pay property taxes. As a percentage of income, many low income people will pay more than the wealthy who take advantage of numerous mechanism to exclude wealth from taxation.


As it applies to giving, this math principle has been addressed.

Everyone should pay some taxes. The taxes you mentioned that the poor do pay is their 'share', if you will.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Without the rich and the big corporations everyone would be poor. They are the movers and shakers that keep the money and the economy moving. God bless the rich!

 

[bhsmte]

The income gap in the United States, has been growing wider for about the last 20 years. The vast bulk of the new wealth, has gone to the top 1% in the last couple of decades and especially so in the last 10 years.

When this happens in societies, you start to have revolt and in a more dramatic example, this has been the most common reason of most revolutions throughout history. It is never healthy for a society, to have the top 1%, to be accumulating all of the wealth and the middle class, getting squeezed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The income gap in the United States, has been growing wider for about the last 20 years. The vast bulk of the new wealth, has gone to the top 1% in the last couple of decades and especially so in the last 10 years.

When this happens in societies, you start to have revolt and in a more dramatic example, this has been the most common reason of most revolutions throughout history. It is never healthy for a society, to have the top 1%, to be accumulating all of the wealth and the middle class, getting squeezed.

When I was in the army I would be 'out and about' every chance I got, while most of the other 'barracks rats' would stay in the barracks playing cards, writing letters, or snoozing. I liken most people to them, lazy, inexperienced, naïve, content with what is handed to them rather than taking control of their lives, exploring the world, looking for better options, etc.

There is no excuse for the financial condition of the middle and lower classes. In America anyone can succeed, if they get off their lazy butts (and minds) and work for it (those with severe disabilities excepted of course).

Be the 'black sheep', leave the fold. There's better food out there than your 'shepherds' are feeding you.

 

[bhsmte]

When I was in the army I would be 'out and about' every chance I got, while most of the other 'barracks rats' would stay in the barracks playing cards, writing letters, or snoozing. I liken most people to them, lazy, inexperienced, naïve, content with what is handed to them rather than taking control of their lives, exploring the world, looking for better options, etc.

There is no excuse for the financial condition of the middle and lower classes. In America anyone can succeed, if they get off their lazy butts (and minds) and work for it (those with severe disabilities excepted of course).

Be the 'black sheep', leave the fold. There's better food out there than your 'shepherds' are feeding you.

It isn't always quite that easy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It isn't always quite that easy.

The most difficult part is the mindset. Most people want to be successful while retaining everything in their lives that hinders success.

They are like a sculptor that is certain a masterpiece lies with a big rock, but won't chip away that which doesn't look like the masterpiece because he doesn't want to upset or discard any of the stone.

 

[jayem]

Without the rich and the big corporations everyone would be poor. They are the movers and shakers that keep the money and the economy moving. God bless the rich!

More specifically, it's buying products and services that keeps the economy going. Consumer spending accounts for about 70% of our GDP. Government spending (federal, state, and local) is 30%. Wealthy people help the economy when they spend money. Which they certainly do. But I suspect at least half, or more, of consumer spending collectively is done by people earning upper-middle incomes and less. That would be an interesting statistic to research.

BTW, I'm not opposed to some reduction in corporate tax rates. Because corporations and the wealthy benefit the economy only when they keep their businesses in the US, hire Americans, and buy American made products. But paying for this lost revenue must not be shifted onto middle and lower income taxpayers.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

More specifically, it's buying products and services that keeps the economy going. Consumer spending accounts for about 70% of our GDP. Government spending (federal, state, and local) is 30%. Wealthy people help the economy when they spend money. Which they certainly do. But I suspect at least half, or more, of consumer spending collectively is done by people earning upper-middle incomes and less. That would be an interesting statistic to research.

BTW, I'm not opposed to some reduction in corporate tax rates. Because corporations and the wealthy benefit the economy only when they keep their businesses in the US, hire Americans, and buy American made products. But paying for this lost revenue must not be shifted onto middle and lower income taxpayers.

The financial dynamics of big business ventures is a mystery to most, even to economists. If understood the rich wouldn't be demonized as much.

 

[Aldebaran]

The income gap in the United States, has been growing wider for about the last 20 years. The vast bulk of the new wealth, has gone to the top 1% in the last couple of decades and especially so in the last 10 years.

Maybe if those rich business owners hadn't made so much progress in business and technology over the past 10 years, they wouldn't have made so much money. That darned Jeff Bezos! That evil Elon Musk! That stupid Bill Gates! They need to stop being so successful. Maybe we should target them with more taxes so they won't make as much money!

 

[Hieronymus]

Rich people profit from society too.
That's how they get rich.
The filthy rich are filthy rich, while the poor suffer from poverty.
Being successful in some contemporary system shouldn't result in owning 10,000 times more money and stuff than people who aren't successful in that same contemporary system.

The love of money... etc..

 

[ViaCrucis]

Without the rich and the big corporations everyone would be poor. They are the movers and shakers that keep the money and the economy moving. God bless the rich!

...is this...is this a serious statement?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aldebaran]

...is this...is this a serious statement?

-CryptoLutheran

Probably. Rich people own businesses. Was Sam Walton rich? How about Bill Gates, John Menard, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, etc? If they weren't there with their riches, how would all the people who work for them have jobs? Oh sure, they could work for someone else, but it would no doubt be a someone else who was rich to be able to hire them.

 

[Dawnhammer]

There is no excuse for the financial condition of the middle and lower classes. In America anyone can succeed, if they get off their lazy butts (and minds) and work for it

Exactly, if everyone worked hard for it then everybody would be on the top 1% and multi billionaire......

Oh wait, this logic has some holes in it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Probably. Rich people own businesses. Was Sam Walton rich? How about Bill Gates, John Menard, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, etc? If they weren't there with their riches, how would all the people who work for them have jobs? Oh sure, they could work for someone else, but it would no doubt be a someone else who was rich to be able to hire them.

I don't have a problem with people having money. I have a problem with glorifying wealth and glorifying the wealthy.

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets." - Luke 6:24-26

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aldebaran]

Exactly, if everyone worked hard for it then everybody would be on the top 1% and multi billionaire......

Oh wait, this logic has some holes in it.

Some people are going to be more successful than others. You may not make as much as the top 1%, but there's nothing wrong with being in the top 50%. Even the top 80 or 90% has it pretty darn good if they used their money wisely enough--which doesn't mean spending it on cigarettes, beer or drugs before actual living expenses.

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't have a problem with people having money. I have a problem with glorifying wealth and glorifying the wealthy.

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets." - Luke 6:24-26

-CryptoLutheran

Maybe glorifying them isn't the answer, but neither is making them out to be villians that must be punished as if they are the problem. Much of the time, the very people that are being spoken against are among those who provide most of us with a job.