Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

Strong in Him

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Reread the parable of the weeds, Matt 13:24-30 again and consider:
The good seed aka wheat, are sinful or they would not be liable to the judgement.

Good wheat = good wheat or otherwise the man deliberately planted bad wheat in his field.
We all sin, but Christians who receive forgiveness of their sins and live in Christ, will not be judged for their sins.

[The angels are not liable to be affected by the judgment because they are holy and elect.]

The good angels have not sinned, since they did not rebel against God but continue to serve him.

The good seed therefore cannot be good in a sense of righteousness but as a status marker, ie as GOD's elect, as Christ's sheep gone astray into sin because as we know, none are righteous.

The parable is about the Kingdom of God.
I've always understood the good seed to be those who have accepted Jesus as king and therefore are in the Kingdom, see also Matthew 13:23. No one is righteous in, and of, themselves - people are only made righteous when they are in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22, Romans 4:24.
So the good seed are those who are in Christ and have been made righteous by him - planted by God in the kingdom.

The good seed are not repentant weeds.
The sheep returned to Him are not repentant goats.

So you say.

Some children are illegitimate, not HIS at all:

So God created some people, in his image, to NOT belong to him?

Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.

In the OT, anyone who was not a Hebrew rescued from slavery and recipients of God's covenant, was not thought to be his child.

as shown by Heb 12:8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

An illegitimate child is still a child.
Ishmael was Abraham's son and one of his descendants; just not the "child of the promise" that Isaac was. God still cared for Ishmael, Genesis 16:11-15.
A person who is not a Christian and has not received God's discipline/correction, or doesn't acknowledge it, was nevertheless still made by God.
 
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Bobber

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In the case of the elect, God's call is irresistible, and in the end they will all be saved.
Your strong and absolute assertion DOESN'T MEAN you're correct. In fact I disagree. God's call IS NOT irresistible and we don't see that it is in scripture.

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Prov 1:20

God wanted these people to turn! He wanted them to repent! For anyone to suggest he didn't is to say God's very statement telling theim to do something...TURN.....had no credibility ! As for me I do believe his statement had credibility and if he said they could turn then they could have! They were called, CALLED, CALLED to repent...if when God calls it's irresistible then the scripture above is in error. They did resist God's call and they succeeded in not doing what God wanted them to do. Period.
 
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RDKirk

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Your post might suggest that people are aware of a strong pull but resisting it, I don't think most people feel the pull, on the other hand some people feel the pull so powerfully that they give up a great deal of earthly rewards to live in closed order convents and monastery's, often saying they had no intention of ever becoming a nun or a monk because they were aware of the sacrifice but wanted really strongly to serve God.

I had this philosophy professor...let me tell you the story.

I had signed up for what would be my second course of philosophy (having taken Logic 101 the earlier semester). This was a "Survey of Philosophy" that was taught by the head of the department himself, a man with a Jewish name.

As it turned out, I was the only person who signed up for the course. That was disappointing, because I was interested in it, but it best fit my desired schedule for me to take it that semester. I went to see the professor in the hope that perhaps I could take the course as a "directed reading" course.

No, he told me, it was a course designed to be taught by lecture, and that's the only way he would teach it. I told him I was disappointed that it would not be available, then. "Oh, no," he said. "I'm going to teach it this semester."

"But I'm the only one signed up for it."

"I'm still going to teach it."

So for the first three sessions, it was just him and me in the classroom. That was clearly silly, so he told me to just meet him in his office for class. Then, in that private situation, he discovered that I was a Christian...and I discovered that he was a Christian as well.

He had been born into an Orthodox Jewish household, but never "found what I was looking for" in Judaism. He'd studied philosophy and abandoned Judaism and became an atheist. He had studied all kinds of philosophies for decades, traveled all over the world to study them at their sources...and yet he had never "found what I was looking for." His mind and heart remained restless and uneasy.

Then he finally considered Jesus. He'd never given Christianity a thought before...after all, he'd heard enough babble from Christians in America all his life to know that wasn't what he was looking for, either. Until he actually began to give it the same study he'd given everything else...and he did find what he was looking for. It had been in Christ all along.

That survey of philosophy course for me turned into "this is what all the other philosophies get wrong." Also, being the sole student...it was one course I absolutely had to prepare for every session.
 
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Bobber

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4. God is both willing and able to save all. I was able to confirm the "willing" part, but able? I looked and looked, and finally realized in a flash that God Is Omnipotent - of course He is able. It's a slam dunk, really.

Let me put it this way. God has already reconciled the world until himself. It's really not asking God will you when he already has,

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

However people MUST receive God's grace Jn 1:12 and acknowledge Jesus Lordship over their lives Rom 10:9,10 to make the salvation a reality in their lives. Can one have something they're not in real terms entering into. Sure. Once can be given the deed of a home.....in a legal sense it belongs to them but if they don't ever take possession of it and move in then it doesn't matter what they have if they don't choose to embrace and activate the experience of it. How do you do that with a home? You take the key unlock the door and walk in. Unless you come into Christ by doing what Romans 10:9,10 says to do then one won't be saved, as far as the reality of experience.

So your words....God is willing to save all? Yes he's willing to allow all to experience what he's provided for them most certainly! Is he able to make sure they do? You say God is omnipotent but....that's not the point. God doesn't release his power in a way that's against his nature. So is God able to save those who don't want to be saved. The answer to that is YES and NO but it depends on what you mean. Does he have Almighty Force? Yes he does but he also has the absolute LOVE character which must allow free will. So one could say if God didn't have the character he has but just his omnipotence could he force it? YES. But you're looking at a God who has a certain character which is a certain way and we thank him for both....his abilities AND his character.
 
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fhansen

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This is true whether they are in a Christian family where both parents are religious and then you have the even more bizarre yet wonderful situation where both parents are staunch atheists and the child knows their parents would be upset if they end up believing in God yet the pull towards God is so strong they end up converting. Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with? I personally don't have a problem with this because God wants who he wants. Some might say well why would he create me if he wanted nothing to do with me? Thats a good question and a very deep one and I don't know how to answer that but I know there is an answer for it and it will be answered one day.
Historically the church has taught that God desires all to be saved, and grants grace to all in some form or manner or another. We're judged based on what we do with whatever we've been given, more expected from those given more. This would also mean, for example, that those who grow up in harsh, unloving, abusive families would most likely be judged with less sternness, with less expected from them as a rule.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Using a Book and missionaries to reinforce HIS internal call (which in my case was more of a nudge) does NOT imply the call is useless...but how it is, in part, fulfilled.
Which still doesn't explain reality: how God could make unbelievers responsible, why he allows evil and suffering and the fact that every person is capable of sinning still.
 
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bling

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Good post, but I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between feeling an irresistible pull to God, and making a conscious effort to turn to God because you know it's the only way to be saved, I'm sure God does want us all to be saved, but why do some people feel powerfully compelled to extreme sacrifices for God such as becoming a nun, monk, or missionary which puts you in the way of extreme danger and deprivation, very few people feel called to do this, but I think God has a different purpose for all of us in this life, some are called to lead, but the rest of us can give God the great compliment of wanting to come to him of our own free will, which is the way he wants it, he's not ignoring us and it's not that he doesn't want us, he wants us to want him.
There is a ton of stuff that happens with God showering us with all kinds of undeserved wonderful gifts. At of a gratitude type of Love, we are willing to do lots of good stuff.

Wanting to do wonderful things which pleases God comes after we have been virtually given everything including a birthright to eternal life in heaven, but not heaven itself at the time.

Before God gifts us, we are hell bound, so there is no feeling of gratitude. We do not have the free underserving gift of Godly type Love, so we are doing stuff for selfish (sinful) desires, yet for selfish desires we can be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity for our enemy (God) and that is all He needs from us at the time.
 
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TedT

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Pre garden, but post God declaring his creation to be very good.
Otherwise the fallen angels who were on earth would also be very good - once they were angels, created by God.
Not if "very good" has no connotation of meaning righteousness or morally good but only "good for HIS purpose of redeeming HIS sinful elect thus ending the postponement of the judgement so the weeds could be burnt...
 
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TedT

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TedT said:
Using a Book and missionaries to reinforce HIS internal call (which in my case was more of a nudge) does NOT imply the call is useless...but how it is, in part, fulfilled.

Which still doesn't explain reality: how God could make unbelievers responsible, why he allows evil and suffering and the fact that every person is capable of sinning still.

...of course it doesn't because this reply of mine was the answer to a different question...

To answer to this set of questions:
_ how God could make unbelievers responsible: they are responsible because they choose their course by their free will (uncoerced, non-constrained) decisions. That is, they are responsible for their decisions to NOT put their faith in HIM (ie, to reject belief in HIM though the English word belief doesn't include the meaning of faith to the level the other Biblical languages do).

- why he allows evil and suffering: He allows evil and suffering because some of HIS elect rebelled against the judgement of the reprobate as too hash for their simple sin of unbelief so HE makes them (us ) live together with the demonic reprobate to open our eyes to the ultimate evil their sin causes them to become and the absolute necessity of their banishment to the outer darkness as per the parable of the weeds, Matt 13.

- the fact that every person is capable of sinning still: Where do you get your info? Are the holy dead who have returned to HIM still sinning? Of course not so you refer to the folk still alive who still sin. Well, all in good time. It is our weakness that causes HIM to have to go slow with our sanctification, not any lapse in HIM.

Also, every person in heaven will be capable of sinning but by their free will choice will never sin again because they know its destructive power. Their addiction to sin has been cured and their knowledge will always stop them from ever choosing evil ever again. Usually once a person has reached this level of full sanctification they soon die as there is no more reason for them to be here suffering, which also reflects upon your last question (accusation?).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Even though I disagree with Calvinist ideas, I haven't noticed that Calvinists behave any differently. They send missions and practice social hospitality like other Christians. Some of the nicest people I ever met are Calvinists even though the theology believes that some people are not chosen and predestined to perdition. In fact, I considered joining a nearby Reformed church regardless of the theology. No church is perfect, and a theologically perfect church may not have a nice pastor and congregation.

Do you think Calvinist theology affects behavior in any way?

The thought comes to me that atheists have claimed their morals and their lives and behavior are no worse --maybe even better-- than the lives of many Christians. I'm not sure why you would expect Calvinists to be better people than others who have been born again.

Now, one who holds to Calvinist theology may be fooling themselves just as anyone else may. Also, whether OSAS is valid or not, there are Calvinists (and many who are not) that use it for license and that does not demonstrate a regenerated heart.

Also, it might be worth mentioning that God shows himself in whatever way he chooses --allows people here to believe one thing, and there to believe differently-- perhaps according to what they need, and perhaps according to what he plans to use them for. No two people even within a church believe identically, even if they use the same words.

However, I can answer certain protests that I have heard concerning the motivation to obedience, of a Calvinist. My own mother wanted to know, if monergism holds throughout the life of the believer --and is not just about salvation-- then what is the believer's motivation to obey, and seek God's face, etc etc? For myself alone I could tell her that the love of the God I have come to know compels me all the more. I KNOW that no matter how I fail, I have not undone anything he planned for me. I can get up. And I cannot help getting up, because he is in me. The Spirit of God is our motivator. But I am saying this very poorly, I see.

There is much more, to my mind, that is different, as far as MY behavior compared to what it would otherwise be-- even what it used to be --and not so much compared to other believers, as that is not my job. Like the earlier paragraph, it is all about the confidence and the motivation. 'Apart from me you can do nothing' is daily driven into my mind, that in me, I can attest to the fact, there dwells no good thing --that is, in and of myself.

My daylong conversation with God has taken a hard turn to his sufficiency, and his delight with the work of his hands. No longer is Heaven with its rewards and hopes and plans the significant motivation it used to be (though, in fact, it appears more beautiful and desirable than it did before), nor the escape from the Lake of Fire, but the overwhelming expectation of SEEING HIM AS HE IS. My performance as a Christian is no longer the focus of my day, but to watch God do the things he does all day long.

THIS Glorious God, who from first to last owns and produces exactly what he set out to do from the beginning, who is more than pleased with the work of his hands, whose wisdom is beyond amazement, whose kindness and gentleness is demonstrative of his GREAT power, who deserves altogether every praise of his unworthy creatures, and for pure love has chosen a people whom he will raise up even above the Angels of Heaven --the Bride of Christ-- THIS God is the one I am coming to know and trust.

My life no longer depends on me.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You're absolutely right in your entire message and are not confused at all. Predestinarianism is a heresy that is upheld only by the Reformed, Presbyterians, and most Baptists. All other Christians in the past 2000 years understood soteriology correctly, like you do.
It might be a bit humorous to you to hear, that since becoming Reformed in my beliefs and understanding, I have noticed that those with whom I grew up, my own parents, siblings and other relatives, Arminian-leaning in their doctrine and conversation --when they pray, they sound very much Reformed, acknowledging the work and sovereignty of God throughout.
 
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Andrewn

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It might be a bit humorous to you to hear, that since becoming Reformed in my beliefs and understanding, I have noticed that those with whom I grew up, my own parents, siblings and other relatives, Arminian-leaning in their doctrine and conversation --when they pray, they sound very much Reformed, acknowledging the work and sovereignty of God throughout.
I attended a Presbyterian church for about a year long time ago. And I did not hear about Calvinism. I occasionally attend a Reformed and a Baptist church nearby and never hear about Calvinism. I dislike Predestinarianism but do not see Calvinist churches pushing it. Your long beautiful post #110 could have been written by an Arminian.

I think the interaction between God and our souls is so dynamic and fast moving that any one verse or a group of verses represents is only a snap shot of this relationship and does not represent the whole interaction.

Theologian NT Wright, while frequently defending Arminian views, always ends the conversation by confessing that there is a mystery embedded in that quest.
 
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TedT

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Before God gifts us, we are hell bound,
Although I do like the bulk of your answer, I must refer to John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. as support for the idea that the good ie, elect, (though sinful) seed, aka the sheep gone astray into sin, were NOT ever condemned with the weeds and the goats.

A small differentiation but the implications are meaningful, especially for those who believe the good seed are repentant weeds and the sheep returned to their saviour are repentant goats.
 
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TedT

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Predestinarianism is a heresy that is upheld only by the Reformed, Presbyterians, and most Baptists. All other Christians in the past 2000 years understood soteriology correctly, like you do
That we live predestined lives is easily verified by a Bible search of the word predestination...I stopped counting at 50 references. Such a doctrine might be ignored by those committed to another theology but it is a logical reading of many verses.

Bible Verses that Support Predestination
  • John 15:16. ...
  • Matthew 24:31. ...
  • Romans 8:28-30. ...
  • Romans 11:5-7. ...
  • Ephesians 1:11. ...
  • Titus 1:1. ...
  • Ephesians 3:9. ...
  • John 4:14.
the short list.
 
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Bobber

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That survey of philosophy course for me turned into "this is what all the other philosophies get wrong." Also, being the sole student...it was one course I absolutely had to prepare for every session.

Ha! Great story. I'm sure he probably boasted that you were his No 1 student!
 
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Bobber

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Which still doesn't explain reality: how God could make unbelievers responsible, why he allows evil and suffering and the fact that every person is capable of sinning still.
My thought on why is that it's obviously for a demonstration time. For sure he takes no joy nor delight in having to allow it BUT.....in the eons to come all spiritual beings in the universe will never be ever to say that he didn't allow MAN or other spiritual beings the freedom to demonstrate what they could do independent from God. If that voice of wonderment is ever raised again God can say, "Nope. Go over and look at that 6000 year time over there on the shelf and there you can see the demonstration of it!" (Of course I've made up that on the shelf thing but one can get my meaning)

The courts and populace of HEAVEN will always be able to say YES God is right. It didn't make him joyful nor did he delight in it but in the bigger picture of what is good he had to deem it allowable. The good news is it's only a STAGE of what the universe has to endure and in the light of eternity only a small stage.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I attended a Presbyterian church for about a year long time ago. And I did not hear about Calvinism. I occasionally attend a Reformed and a Baptist church nearby and never hear about Calvinism. I dislike Predestinarianism but do not see Calvinist churches pushing it. Your long beautiful post #110 could have been written by an Arminian.

I think the interaction between God and our souls is so dynamic and fast moving that any one verse or a group of verses represents is only a snap shot of this relationship and does not represent the whole interaction.

Theologian NT Wright, while frequently defending Arminian views, always ends the conversation by confessing that there is a mystery embedded in that quest.
Not that you don't know this, but 'Presbyterian' doesn't of itself mean that they are Reformed.

'Predestinarianism' is a relatively new term to me. I have heard of predestination all my life, and it always made sense to me, in spite of being shouted down with the usual misapprehensions of just what Reformed Theology teaches. 'Predestinarianism' from what I understand is not simply predestination, nor the teaching of predestination, but, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "A heresy which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, namely to the sovereign will of God." And they go on to defend 'Free Will' in the usual way, as though Calvinism denies choice. It does not deny choice --it insists on it --and it even insists on the necessary results of regeneration: faith, repentance, obedience and so on, without which a person is by no means one of the regenerated.

You said that you don't see Calvinist churches pushing it. I'm wondering if you took the good sense of what you were hearing (if indeed they were Calvinistic) and didn't realize the implications. Most Wesleyan, even Arminian-leaning, 'Bible Churches', Fundamentalist and Mainline denominational, if they believe in Plenary Verbal Inspiration of the Scriptures, and the Deity of Christ, recognize that salvation is by grace alone, through faith, and preaching to that effect is acceptable if nuances are not recognized as opposing to their POV.

The last you said, that Wright, defending Arminian views, ends by saying it is a mystery. I have heard that sort of thing often from those who deny Calvinism, and they cannot understand why I don't see paradox or 'spiritual tension' (a favorite term --I'm not sure what it means). My mom says, "above the gate to Heaven, on this side it says, 'Whosoever Will'. From the other side it says, 'Chosen from the Foundation of the World.'" I asked whosoever might that be, that will? (It's like with the notion of 'pure chance' --the fact that we don't know the cause doesn't mean that what we are considering is random or uncaused). The fact we don't know who are the Elect doesn't mean they are chosen from a pool of random possibles, by mere foresight. God is specific.
 
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John Mullally

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Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.
Good work! And yet we all see portions of Paul's obviously rhetorical writings (diatribe) as proof texts for all sorts of doctrine. Tread carefully.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good work! And yet we all see portions of Paul's obviously rhetorical writings (diatribe) as proof texts for all sorts of doctrine. Tread carefully.
Brings to mind the long-time Christian standard: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." But good hermeneutics shows it was spoken to the jailer who was afraid for his life. The fact that Paul says, "...and thy house" may provide some comfort to those who wish to spiritualize the verse, yet the majority of them would deny the idea of the household being saved by the faith of the one man. Yet who can deny the principle?

Yes, agreed, tread lightly indeed!
 
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John Mullally

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Brings to mind the long-time Christian standard: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." But good hermeneutics shows it was spoken to the jailer who was afraid for his life. The fact that Paul says, "...and thy house" may provide some comfort to those who wish to spiritualize the verse, yet the majority of them would deny the idea of the household being saved by the faith of the one man. Yet who can deny the principle?

Yes, agreed, tread lightly indeed!
As far as evangelistic passages my favorite is Acts 2:36-42 - there's no ambiguity.
 
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