Why do some christians think that morals come from god?

dcalling

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Do you know what theory means?

I doubt it.

Insult me won't help you prove your case....

All the talk about black holes are just what scientists think what is there with our current observation and knowledge. They think huge concentrated mass can produce gravitational pulls so big not even light can escape. But it is an assumption based on current knowledge levels, it is not certain.
 
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dcalling

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"Black holes" cannot be seen but the fact that they must exist is proved by, and even their mass can be measured by, the effect they have on other things.

AFAIK, there is not evidence of gods existing or even of them having an effect on anything.

There are evidences they exists but it is not proven....

Here is a national geographic article about it

be rational, this is science, not math, nothing is truly proven.
 
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workmx

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Insult me won't help you prove your case....

All the talk about black holes are just what scientists think what is there with our current observation and knowledge. They think huge concentrated mass can produce gravitational pulls so big not even light can escape. But it is an assumption based on current knowledge levels, it is not certain.

It was not an insult.

It was a question.

And it went unanswered.

And I have no case.

I am exploring the case for a christian god.

It is not going well so far.
 
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workmx

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There are evidences they exists but it is not proven....

Here is a national geographic article about it

be rational, this is science, not math, nothing is truly proven.

The evidence bears out the hypothesis of black holes.

We can even measure how much they weigh.

See that: using a unit of measure to establish whether or not something may exist.

A thing of beauty is it not?

Sure that knowledge is held provisionally, but all knowledge should be.

Which is why religion does not contain knowledge - it is the oppsite of justified true belief. It is dogma.

...

What does this have to do with morality, by the way?
 
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workmx

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Ariston

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This question has always puzzled me:

Why do some christians think that morals come from god?

:confused::confused::confused:

The reason that Christians think morals come from God in some sense is because Christians think that it is more likely that that moral duties and obligations are objective rather than subjective. That is to say, if this statement is true: "it is wrong in all places and at all times for a person to harm little children for fun" or "one ought not to torture Jews" are true propositions constituting knowledge regardless of the sadist or sociopath who thinks otherwise, then it follows that objective moral duties and obligations exists, and thus there is a deficiency within the naturalist or physicalist worldview where such propositions would be utterly unintelligible.

There are two obvious reasons why such statements above would not be true on naturalism or physicalism (Western atheism). If physicalism is true, then determinism is true (or at least free will could not exist), and thus there can be no moral obligations since the notion of "ought" (for example: we ought to be kind to children rather than cruel) implies that we can. The other reason is that no moral proposition would ever rise beyond subjectivity. The notions of fairness, honesty, kindness, ect. would be no more a matter of my opinion than the other mans opinion that we ought to be unjust, treacherous, cruel, ect. Morality is entirely reduced to relativity or personal opinion. Another way of putting this might cut to the point: If it is true that we a just an accidental byproduct of nature, doomed within a relatively short period to annihilation, then there would certainly be no objective moral duties since 1. my actions are entirely the result of heredity and environmental factors alone in which case I could not be responsible for them and 2. even if I were responsible for them there would exist no reason why I ought to behave in any particular way. There is no moral standard that I am obliged or ought to live up to rather than the one that I determine. And the one that I determine has no basis for being superior to that of the next person. If God does not exist, we would have no responsibility to do anything and are justified in doing anything.

It is common then for the disbeliever in God who once to maintain the truth of the proposition: "It is morally wrong to harm a child for fun" for example, to say that morality is determined on the basis of whether our actions either cause harm to someone, which is immoral, or promote a greater well-being which is moral. But what cannot be provided is a reason why one is obliged to promote the well-being of another person since the moral theory itself would be based solely on that persons preferential ideology. There would be no reason to think that on such a basis his moral teachings would magically become objective and binding on everyone else.

Of course it is morally wrong at all places and at all times to abuse a child. But if this is true in any objective sense and we have a moral duty to prevent such an atrocity, then where atheism possess poor explanatory power (we can call this the atheistic problem of ethics), the objectivity of moral duty is a nice fit in a world where there exists an omni-benevolent being who wants us to behave in a particular fashion. Of course the atheist could just bite the bullet and maintain that objective morality does not really exist and that his belief that we ought to be kind to children rather than torture them is just a matter of his personal taste - no more valid or binding then the values of a pervert who enjoys molesting children. But in any case, perhaps you can see why Christians think that morality must be grounded in God or in an objective standard that comes forth from God.

On a final note, there is a general confusion at this point between the question of where objective values come from or how we obtain them and the question of whether they are subjective or objective. I have only emphasized that just about everyone believes that objective morality (persons ought to be just for example), is widely thought to exist and quite incoherently by most atheists. I was not attempting to make the point that we do not develop them partly or largely through societal factors and heredity but only that, if God did not exist, they would not be objective and binding. If they are binding, its of little consequence where they come from for my present purposes. As they are apparently binding, and a person should believe what is apparently true unless they have strong evidence to the contrary, it is I think philosophically proper to acknowledge the relationship between objective moral duties and theism.
 
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workmx

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The reason that Christians think morals come from God in some sense is because Christians think that it is more likely that that moral duties and obligations are objective rather than subjective. That is to say, if this statement is true: "it is wrong in all places and at all times for a person to harm little children for fun" or "one ought not to torture Jews" are true propositions constituting knowledge regardless of the sadist or sociopath who thinks otherwise, then it follows that objective moral duties and obligations exists, and thus there is a deficiency within the naturalist or physicalist worldview where such propositions would be utterly unintelligible.

There are two obvious reasons why such statements above would not be true on naturalism or physicalism (Western atheism). If physicalism is true, then determinism is true (or at least free will could not exist), and thus there can be no moral obligations since the notion of "ought" (for example: we ought to be kind to children rather than cruel) implies that we can. The other reason is that no moral proposition would ever rise beyond subjectivity. The notions of fairness, honesty, kindness, ect. would be no more a matter of my opinion than the other mans opinion that we ought to be unjust, treacherous, cruel, ect. Morality is entirely reduced to relativity or personal opinion. Another way of putting this might cut to the point: If it is true that we a just an accidental byproduct of nature, doomed within a relatively short period to annihilation, then there would certainly be no objective moral duties since 1. my actions are entirely the result of heredity and environmental factors alone in which case I could not be responsible for them and 2. even if I were responsible for them there would exist no reason why I ought to behave in any particular way. There is no moral standard that I am obliged or ought to live up to rather than the one that I determine. And the one that I determine has no basis for being superior to that of the next person. If God does not exist, we would have no responsibility to do anything and are justified in doing anything.

It is common then for the disbeliever in God who once to maintain the truth of the proposition: "It is morally wrong to harm a child for fun" for example, to say that morality is determined on the basis of whether our actions either cause harm to someone, which is immoral, or promote a greater well-being which is moral. But what cannot be provided is a reason why one is obliged to promote the well-being of another person since the moral theory itself would be based solely on that persons preferential ideology. There would be no reason to think that on such a basis his moral teachings would magically become objective and binding on everyone else.

Of course it is morally wrong at all places and at all times to abuse a child. But if this is true in any objective sense and we have a moral duty to prevent such an atrocity, then where atheism possess poor explanatory power (we can call this the atheistic problem of ethics), the objectivity of moral duty is a nice fit in a world where there exists an omni-benevolent being who wants us to behave in a particular fashion. Of course the atheist could just bite the bullet and maintain that objective morality does not really exist and that his belief that we ought to be kind to children rather than torture them is just a matter of his personal taste - no more valid or binding then the values of a pervert who enjoys molesting children. But in any case, perhaps you can see why Christians think that morality must be grounded in God or in an objective standard that comes forth from God.

On a final note, there is a general confusion at this point between the question of where objective values come from or how we obtain them and the question of whether they are subjective or objective. I have only emphasized that just about everyone believes that objective morality (persons ought to be just for example), is widely thought to exist and quite incoherently by most atheists. I was not attempting to make the point that we do not develop them partly or largely through societal factors and heredity but only that, if God did not exist, they would not be objective and binding. If they are binding, its of little consequence where they come from for my present purposes. As they are apparently binding, and a person should believe what is apparently true unless they have strong evidence to the contrary, it is I think philosophically proper to acknowledge the relationship between objective moral duties and theism.

I think you are confusing the opposite of objective in this case.

The opposite of absolute morality is not subjective, in the same way as the opposite of creation is not randomness.
 
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Albion

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The reason that Christians think morals come from God in some sense is because Christians think that it is more likely that that moral duties and obligations are objective rather than subjective.
An excellent answer--so apt, in fact, that I can't think that much more needs to be said. :)
 
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Lenny3

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Insult me won't help you prove your case....

All the talk about black holes are just what scientists think what is there with our current observation and knowledge. They think huge concentrated mass can produce gravitational pulls so big not even light can escape. But it is an assumption based on current knowledge levels, it is not certain.

I don't think he was trying to insult you. I think he was making an astute observation. It's fairly obvious that you don't understand what a scientific theory is and how it differs for the word "theory" in common vernacular.

A scientific theory explains a phenomenon. As in: Evolution happens, the Theory of Evolution explain why evolution happens. (Just as an example)
 
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Joshua260

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"Objective morals" don't make sense to me since morals change within any give culture dependent on the given time/place. Morals are subjective.

No, that is not correct. In this time and place, all of those things are morally reprehensible. In a different time and place, they were A-ok. I cannot project my modern morals onto those of the bronze-aged.

Ok then! So your view is that raping little girls, slavery, and antisemitism are not always bad things to do. Do I understand you correctly?
 
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dcalling

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The evidence bears out the hypothesis of black holes.

We can even measure how much they weigh.

See that: using a unit of measure to establish whether or not something may exist.

A thing of beauty is it not?

Did you even see my link? Stephen Hawking (I am sure you know who he is) think Black holes might not existed as we know it. Science changes its views from time to time with new knowledge and theories.

You sounds like you are 100% certain black holes existed, it is like you are worshiping your current knowledge.

Sure that knowledge is held provisionally, but all knowledge should be.

Which is why religion does not contain knowledge - it is the oppsite of justified true belief. It is dogma.

Religion is about self perfection, it is not a book about technology, it is about direction.

What does this have to do with morality, by the way?

Because a lot of your views (i.e. law has to have a weight) is just so rigid, you almost sounds like you want to by MP3s by weight :)
 
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workmx

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Did you even see my link? Stephen Hawking (I am sure you know who he is) think Black holes might not existed as we know it. Science changes its views from time to time with new knowledge and theories.

Yes, I read it. Hawking does not deny the existence of black holes, he simply extends our knowlewdge of them.

You sounds like you are 100% certain black holes existed, it is like you are worshiping your current knowledge.

Wow - that was a cheap shot!

Okay.

Religion is about self perfection, it is not a book about technology, it is about direction.

No religion is all about faith: pretending to have knowledge of something that is unknowable.

Because a lot of your views (i.e. law has to have a weight) is just so rigid, you almost sounds like you want to by MP3s by weight :)

That is another strawman.

If you cannot deal honestly with the topic, please stop posting.

Let's review:

You said that "absolute morality was inserted in our souls".

I ask you to prove it.

You could not.

So, I gave you a tool to prove it.

And again you could not.

So, at this point your claim is totally without basis - kindly withdraw it.

And admit you are in error.



BTW, MP3s can be measured in bytes too. :doh:

Just saying.
 
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workmx

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An excellent answer--so apt, in fact, that I can't think that much more needs to be said. :)

No not apt at all.

As I pointed out: it is a false dichotomy (and a strawman).

WorkMX said:
The opposite of absolute morality is not subjectivity, in the same way as the opposite of creation is not randomness.
 
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Joshua260

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I think Lenny is stating observations, not his personal "view".

No, I actually suspect that Lenny is being honest about the only real option open to atheists in regards to objective moral values and duties.

Here is the moral argument for God:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

Read more: The Moral Argument for God | Reasonable Faith

Lenny seems to be refuting premise #2. In other words, I think his view is that the negative moral value related to the raping of little girls, slavery, and antisemitism is only an illusory characteristic...we simply prefer not to do those things nowadays. So the atheist of today has no basis for telling the slave owner of the antebellum era that owning slaves is a morally negative practice. Only a few atheists are willing to admit this. Most of them say something like "there are no objective moral values and duties; however, slavery is definitely "wrong" no matter what anybody thinks".

But we'll have to wait and see if he confirms my suspicions.
 
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workmx

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No, I actually suspect that Lenny is being honest about the only real option open to atheists in regards to objective moral values and duties.

Here is the moral argument for God:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

Read more: The Moral Argument for God | Reasonable Faith

Lenny seems to be refuting premise #2. In other words, I think his view is that the negative moral value related to the raping of little girls, slavery, and antisemitism is only an illusory characteristic...we simply prefer not to do those things nowadays. So the atheist of today has no basis for telling the slave owner of the antebellum era that owning slaves is a morally negative practice. Only a few atheists are willing to admit this. Most of them say something like "there are no objective moral values and duties; however, slavery is definitely "wrong" no matter what anybody thinks".

But we'll have to wait and see if he confirms my suspicions.

Okay, we are playing the long game rather then.

Demonstrate that objective moral values are a quality of god.

If you cannot premise 1 fails.

Demonstrate if that god did not exist, then objective moral values could not exist.

Because objective moral values may be a function of something other than a god.

If you cannot premise 1 fails.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

Demonstrate that objective moral values exist or premise 2 fails.

Although that is probably redundant becase you cannot prove they exist at premise 1. So both premises fail.

Both premises likely fail, so the conclusion is not rationally justified.

So long and have a nice day. :doh:
 
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bhsmte

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Okay, we are playing the long game rather then.

Demonstrate that objective moral values are a quality of god.

If you cannot premise 1 fails.

Demonstrate if that god did not exist, then objective moral values could not exist.

Because objective moral values may be a function of something other than a god.

If you cannot premise 1 fails.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

Demonstrate that objective moral values exist or premise 2 fails.

Although that is probably redundant becase you cannot prove they exist at premise 1. So both premises fail.

Both premises likely fail, so the conclusion is not rationally justified.

So long and have a nice day. :doh:

Indeed. Looks like Joshua is tied into the William Lane Craig philosophy. Problem is, whenever anyone with half a brain challenges Craig's assumptions, they tend to get torn apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HthQ6a7FZeA
 
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Lenny3

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Lenny seems to be refuting premise #2. In other words, I think his view is that the negative moral value related to the raping of little girls, slavery, and antisemitism is only an illusory characteristic...we simply prefer not to do those things nowadays. So the atheist of today has no basis for telling the slave owner of the antebellum era that owning slaves is a morally negative practice. Only a few atheists are willing to admit this. Most of them say something like "there are no objective moral values and duties; however, slavery is definitely "wrong" no matter what anybody thinks".

But we'll have to wait and see if he confirms my suspicions.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

First of all, I can't go back a couple hundred years ago and tell American slave owners that slavery is immoral.

Just as you can't go back a few thousand years ago and tell middle eastern people that the Biblically sanctioned slavery they partook in is immoral.

By today's standards slavery is wholly considered immoral (in advanced cultures) ... a few thousand years ago, slavery wasn't considered wholly immoral.

This is evidence for subjective morality, not for objective morality.

If morals were objective, then morals would not fluctuate in the way that they do fluctuate.
 
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Joshua260

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Demonstrate that objective moral values are a quality of god.
I find it useful to define what I mean by "objective". What I mean by that term is that, for example, slavery is, and has always had a negative moral value attached to it, regardless of any human being's personal opinion living or dead, past or present. So usually then, the atheist will respond with Euthyphro's dilemma..."Is an act right because God says it's so, or does God say it's so because it's right?" But this is not really a dillemma for Christians because the Biblical view of God is that "Goodness is neither above God nor merely willed by Him. Instead, ethics are grounded in His holy character. Moral notions are not arbitrary and given to caprice. They are fixed and absolute, grounded in God's immutable nature."

Demonstrate if that god did not exist, then objective moral values could not exist.
That seems to be the opinion of some famous atheists.

Richard Dawkins:
[FONT=&quot]“there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. . . . We are machines for propagating DNA. . . . It is every living object’s sole reason for being”

Charles Darwin:
"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]If … men were reared under precisely the same conditions as hive-bees, there can hardly be a doubt that our unmarried females would, like the worker-bees, think it a sacred duty to kill their brothers, and mothers would strive to kill their fertile daughters, and no one would think of interfering"[/FONT]

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

Fascinating. Maybe you should talk to your fellow atheists I just quoted from. They seem to think that all our moral values and duties are just an illusion brought about by natural selection.

"[FONT=&quot]at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference."[/FONT]
 
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