Why Do Some Believe Mary Remained a Virgin?

[MJFlores]

Well no. Also, that's rather disingenuous. If you reject the the faith of the Church, why are you using our Bible?

-CryptoLutheran

If I buy a Catholic bible from the store, it becomes my property - isn't that true?
Next, how come you don't read it? It should be read for all to know.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If I buy a Catholic bible from the store, it becomes my property - isn't that true?

You own the materials, you don't own the content. The Canon of Sacred Scripture known as the Bible belongs to the Christian Church, it is her Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MJFlores]

You own the materials, you don't own the content. The Canon of Sacred Scripture known as the Bible belongs to the Christian Church, it is her Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

It hurts when one is hit by its own bullets, doesn't it?
Its canon then - Jesus isn't God.

US Army Soldier with AK47

 

[kepha31]

The "Jesus had biological siblings" theory trivializes the uniqueness of the Incarnation; IMO is a doctrine of demons.
The Father of Jesus is God, not Joseph. Joseph was given the role of protector to safeguard Mary's vow of virginity according to Jewish custom.
Therefore her true Spouse is the Holy Spirit. She did not sleep around on Him, and all the Bible twisting and word games isn't going to change that fact.

 

[nomadictheist]

I apologize.


Then dismantle Matthew 27: 55
“Among them were Mary Magdalene and MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES AND JOSEPH, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”
This “Mary” is obviously the mother of the same James and Joseph mentioned in Matt 13:55.

No, not obviously. As I said before, James and Joseph were not uncommon names at that time. In fact, they were probably at least as common as Joshua is today and I have 3 of those just in my church, and 2 more at my workplace.
If you read all the references to Mary, the mother of James and Joseph, you will see that she is also called Mary, the mother of James the Lesser and Joseph. James the Lesser is one of Jesus' disciples (not to be confused with James, the son of Zebedee). Yet none of Jesus' brothers was numbered among Jesus' disciples. So this is obviously a different James.

"Brothers" has more that one meaning.
Not according to Strong's Concordance. I don't think you read post #113-114 where all this stuff has been refuted.

Both adelphos and suggenes mean kinsmen. Adelphos, as you can see by the link to Strong's Greek Concordance, it means a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

According to Strong's concordance (if you look at the link you yourself provided), brother means 'brother', coming from the word "Delphos" (which is 'womb') and the prefix "alpha", thus making the meaning literally 'of the same womb.'

As to more than one meaning, that is where context is important. As noted in Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the most normal, most obvious meaning of the word is 'a brother born either of the same two parents, or the same mother.' Of course, this is partly determined by context. I will deal more with this after the next section.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."


Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

So, this is where context is important. First of all, the OT was originally written in Hebrew, while the NT was originally written in Greek, with Mark and Luke specifically actually being Greek and not Jewish. So for the sake of brevity we should focus on the portion for which Greek was actually the original language.

Now, context. While brother can be used in more than one way, it's 'meaning' is, as I said, 'of the same womb.' I haven't argued that it couldn't be used differently, but as I said, when speaking of relations, the NT authors use the word 'suggenes.' But without getting too far into that, let's take a look at some specifics that provide better context.

Matthew 1:2 Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers [Adelphoi]
Matthew 1:11 Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers [Adelphoi]
Matthew 4:18 As Jesus was walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers [Adelphoi], Simon called Peter and his brother [Adelphos] Andrew
Matthew 4:21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers [Adelphoi], James son of Zebedee and his brother [Adelphos] John
Matthew 12:46-50 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers [Adelphoi] stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers [Adelphoi] are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers [Adelphoi]?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers [Adelphoi]. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother [Adelphos] and sister and mother.”

I'm going to pause here for a moment to state the obvious. If 'Adelphoi' here were being used in the more generic sense of countrymen or members of the same religious group, then Jesus' response to them makes no sense. His disciples would already be considered his 'brothers' in that sense of the word. However, the context is clearly physical family. It was his mother and brothers. The phrase is used a couple other times later on.

Continuing to Matthew 13 we read:
“Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers [Adelphos] James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters [Adelphes] with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.

The greater context in which this occurs is Jesus returning to His hometown to preach. The people hear Him and say, 'wait a minute, where is He getting this from? We know His mother. We know his brothers. We know His sisters.' Or in other words, 'isn't He just another man from this town?'

Now on another note here, not only does the context show that they're talking about his directly related brothers, but they name them. All 4 of them. "Are not His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" Again, if they are speaking in the broader, more generic terms that you suggest, every one of them is His brother. Why would his 'brothers' name his 'brothers', and only number them 4?

Moving on, there is a term that means 'Kinsman'. As I said before, that is 'Suggenes,' and is used several times to speak of relatives that weren't 'of the same womb,' the most notable being when Mary went to see her 'Suggenes' Elizabeth, and where Mary and Joseph realized Jesus wasn't with them and began to look for Him among their 'Suggenes' and friends. Therefore, it's obvious that these references to Jesus' brothers, based on the context, is neither the broad sense of countrymen or people of the same religious persuasion, nor the generic blood relative sense of people of the same tribe or 'kinsmen'.

Correct. Mary had no other children.

According to the Holy Scriptures she did.

People who deny the perpetual virginity of Mary can't be bothered with the scriptural evidence, change the meaning of words like "until", "brothers", etc., and have fallen victim of 18th century polemics, since none of the reformers taught this lunacy.

Actually, the idea of perpetual virginity was resisted from the time it was first introduced, but the already corrupt church branded anyone who opposed as a heretic. The scriptural evidence, without the corrupted influence of apocryphal books, is all for Mary having more children.

No, that was the devils advocate section. 2 sisters in the same family named Mary? Come on!!! Again, you didn't read my posts.

Ah. What I meant to say was that your argument rested on the James and Joseph who were the other Mary's sons being the same James and Joseph who were among Jesus' 4 brothers, which they are obviously not when you examine the evidence.

 

[nomadictheist]

Ohhh, now Mary, the mother of Jesus, blessed among all woman that ever lived, is a pagan goddess because she is given a title "Queen of Heaven?

No. Mary is not a pagan goddess. She is a simple woman who was blessed by God to be a part of His plan of salvation.

However, those who venerate her to the position of 'Queen of Heaven' make her into an idol.

Much is made of the title Queen of Heaven by those who attack Catholicism and Marian devotion. The allusion is always to the pagan pantheons and to the mother of the gods, often mother in a very carnal sense of other pagan deities. The Canaanite worship of the "Queen of Heaven" condemned by the prophets is mentioned, as is the worship of Diana of the Ephesians, devotion to whom was exceeding popular before the Gospel arrived among the pagans. It is said that Catholicism at the Council of Ephesus restored this pagan devotion under the cover of devotion to Mary. The history of that Council given above shows the absurdity, and the intellectual dishonesty, of that claim! One might as well claim with respect to Jesus that Christians worship a mere man, since to arrive at this conclusion the Church's teaching must be ripped from its context and distorted to fit a preconceived judgement.

What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation,

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)

Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom, though it is present on earth in the Church, but a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ.

Like I already posted, the pagan influence is a FALLACY.

Show me in the scripture where we see any 'Queen of Heaven' in a positive light. It's not there. Show me where the scriptures say that God has a queen. It's also not there.

Show me in the scripture where it says that Mary is the Queen of God's Kingdom. Our Lord and Savior has only one bride, and that is His church, which He is preparing for the day of the wedding banquet.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yeah, I don't believe the Trinity.
And I don't believe Jesus is God.

You are lecturing Christians about what to believe and not believe but you don't believe two essential doctrines of the faith. Interesting.

They missed all about this
Because they couldn't read

Perhaps because faith comes by hearing, and the simple faith in Jesus Christ was always, from Pentecost on, that he was 'I AM'. That he was 'My Lord and my God'. The powers of death shall not prevail against such belief.

So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It hurts when one is hit by its own bullets, doesn't it?
Its canon then - Jesus isn't God.

US Army Soldier with AK47
View attachment 192256

Either you're deliberately being obtuse or you really are failing to grasp what I'm saying.

Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

The Canon of Scripture

-CryptoLutheran

 

[kepha31]

No. Mary is not a pagan goddess. She is a simple woman who was blessed by God to be a part of His plan of salvation.
However, those who venerate her to the position of 'Queen of Heaven' make her into an idol.

That's anti-Catholic hate speech. I explained the title, you just ignored it.

Show me in the scripture where we see any 'Queen of Heaven' in a positive light. It's not there. Show me where the scriptures say that God has a queen. It's also not there.

The ROLE of the Davidic Queen is foreshadowed in Scripture, you just reject it.

Show me in the scripture where it says that Mary is the Queen of God's Kingdom. Our Lord and Savior has only one bride, and that is His church, which He is preparing for the day of the wedding banquet.

Show me in Scripture where every title, prayer, devotion, practice and doctrine must explicitly found in Scripture to be valid. It's nowhere in Scripture. It is a false man made Protestant tradition.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one family through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ. HONOR IS NOT WORSHIP NOR IDOLATRY

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Idolatry is not only a false charge, it's based on ignorance, blind prejudice, and highly insulting.

 

[kepha31]

The Queen of Heaven was a goddess in pagan times, but when we call Mary the Queen of Heaven it has nothing to do with pagan worship. We don’t worship Mary. Check out this post to correct that misunderstanding.

Instead Mary as the Queen of Heaven is tied in with the Old Testament concept of the royal household. Because the King had many wives it was impossible for one to be Queen. Therefore the King’s mother served in the role. The Queen Mother sat on a throne at the King’s right hand and helped rule the kingdom. Access to the King would often be through the Queen Mother and she would ask favors from the King for those who asked her. You can see an example of this in I Kings 2: 17-25 where Solomon is on the throne next to his mother Bathsheba.

Solomon is David’s son so, this establishes the analogy of the Queen Mother in the Kingdom of David. We know that Jesus is the Son of David and that he inherits the throne of his father David. His role as such is announced by the angel Gabriel from God Most High. So in Luke chapter one:

You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.​

The angel is speaking in ROYAL TERMS, not YahooNews.

So the “Kingdom of God” or “Kingdom of Heaven” which Jesus talks about all the time is also the Kingdom of his father David. Jesus is the King who’s kingdom will never end, and who is his mother? Mary. If he is the King of the Kingdom of David–the Kingdom of God–also called the Kingdom of Heaven, then she is the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven, and thus the Queen of Heaven–furthermore, if her son the King’s kingdom will never end we must conclude that her reign as Queen Mother at his right hand will also never end. It is an eternal kingdom.

It’s confirmed in Revelation 12 where “a great sign is given” — we see the woman who is the mother of the child who will rule the whole earth with a rod of iron. She is crowned with stars and with the moon under her feet.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant…She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

Who else could this be–clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head–than the Queen of Heaven? That she is the Virgin Mary is clear as she gives birth to the male child who is the King of Kings. Another take on this here.

"Venerate" does not mean worship. So Catholics venerate Mary as the Queen of Heaven. It’s there in the Bible…if you have eyes to see.

 

[FenderTL5]

Blessed Feast of the Annunciation to all. ( This seemed an appropriate place)

 

[buzuxi02]

In OT times the queen was the mother of the king not the wife, especially since many kings such as Solomon had multiple wives or the heir to the throne was too young if the king passed away so the grandmother then mother acted as consultant. In Orthodoxy we use the title of Queen of heaven but much less emphasis, as Theotokos is the standard title. But it remains as Psalm 45.9-17 does speak of a queen of heaven anf has always been interpreted as a prophecy of the Virgin birth from Mary. So yes the bible does say it.

 

[MJFlores]

The question was:
Why Do Some Believe Mary Remained a Virgin?

We are veering away from the question.

Since people do not believe the bible
Maybe each of us should ask this question from a person who knows

and what becomes of a virgin after she gives birth

 

[prodromos]

The question was:
Why Do Some Believe Mary Remained a Virgin?

We are veering away from the question.

Since people do not believe the bible
Maybe each of us should ask this question from a person who knows
View attachment 192310
and what becomes of a virgin after she gives birth

What is the sample size given for virgins who have given birth?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Blessed Feast of the Annunciation to all. ( This seemed an appropriate place)

And a (bit belated) blessed feast of the Annunciation back to you.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The question was:
Why Do Some Believe Mary Remained a Virgin?

We are veering away from the question.

Since people do not believe the bible
Maybe each of us should ask this question from a person who knows
View attachment 192310
and what becomes of a virgin after she gives birth

Oh, come on, that's not at issue here. A virgin is someone who hasn't had sex. Regardless of the affect on the body parts caused by giving birth, the point of not having had sex is the controlling idea of what makes a virgin.

 

[nomadictheist]

That's anti-Catholic hate speech. I explained the title, you just ignored it.

The ROLE of the Davidic Queen is foreshadowed in Scripture, you just reject it.

Oh. So calling Mary 'veneration' (worship disguised with a more acceptable word) idolatry is 'hate speech,' but calling the acceptance of the most clear interpretation of the scriptures concerning her other children 'heresy' isn't? I see how this works.

You base the entirety of the title on a few isolated verses that have no support in the rest of scripture, and it all starts with the apocryphal, demonic book Protoevangelium of James.

Show me in Scripture where every title, prayer, devotion, practice and doctrine must explicitly found in Scripture to be valid. It's nowhere in Scripture. It is a false man made Protestant tradition.

'Queen of Heaven' is not every title. It is a specific title that should give anyone pause considering it originated with multiple pagan systems of idolatry. If we started calling our churches 'covens' I'm pretty sure you would think there was a serious problem.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

I know this is what the catholic church teaches, but there is no basis for this anywhere else in scripture. There's no evidence that any believer in the early church considered Mary their 'mother' (save John, by specific instruction).

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

The interpretation of this representing 'Mary' is only one possible interpretation, and doesn't fit with the rest of the NT view of Mary. It is much more likely that the woman in Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel. The prophets of old often spoke of the nation of Israel in terms of being God's appointed bride, just as the church in the New Testament is called the 'bride of Christ.'

In Revelation, there is no one who sits at God's right hand save our Lord Jesus Christ. No 'queen of heaven', no 'Mary.' If Mary is anywhere to be found in the book of Revelation, it is among the multitude worshiping at the throne.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one family through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

It is interesting that Jesus never calls Mary His mother. Every time he addresses her he calls her 'woman.' Even on the cross He does not call her His 'mother.' It's almost as though Jesus were intentionally not acknowledging her as His mother because He knew His only real Parent was His Father (God the Father), who He frequently called 'Father.'

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

Proof please. There is nothing in the text that suggests that this must be a reference to Mary, and once again, the New Testament vision of Heaven has no special place for Mary in it.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ. HONOR IS NOT WORSHIP NOR IDOLATRY

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Our only biblical Intercessor is the Holy Spirit, and our ONE intermediary between God and man is Jesus Christ. Any other is idolatry.

Idolatry is not only a false charge, it's based on ignorance, blind prejudice, and highly insulting.

Oh yes. It's so ignorant to call veneration, reverence, and adoration worship.

The part where reverence, adoration, the claim of sinlessness and being a queen on equal status with our King, and the treatment as being an intercessor like the Holy Spirit and an intermediary like our Lord is not worship.

 

[MJFlores]

What is the sample size given for virgins who have given birth?

I'm sure they know where is where in the female anatomy. They don't need a virgin to test it out.

 

[MJFlores]

Oh, come on, that's not at issue here. A virgin is someone who hasn't had sex. Regardless of the affect on the body parts caused by giving birth, the point of not having had sex is the controlling idea of what makes a virgin.

What do you think makes a virgin?
I know the song - Like a Virgin by Madonna
Like only but not a virgin.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I knew this thread would end badly, and although it probably has lots of posts to come, it's in that 'badly' place now. I was going to try to find one of your posts that I thought was pretty good, and address an issue raised there. I had other responsibilities and this thread got away from me. I did see that one post of yours, wanted to complement you on it, and reply. But now I'm not inclined to wade through all of the posts to find it. Now I see the thread has degenerated to you basically calling us idolaters. So I'm done. You, in this post, have convinced me that it's just not worth trying to have an adult conversation with antidicomarianites, whether you object to the label or not.

This to all of you. There isn't enough good faith desire to understand, but lots of desire to condemn. So take pride in your 'until' argument and all of the other arguments. You will keep it up until the second coming. Then we may be able to talk again. Except you will probably expect me to be in that other place gnashing my teeth.