Why do Priests avoid discussion?

[-Kyriaki-]

Fr John is great, I agree. Talking to him might be good, anyway

I'm glad someone is getting you in touch with a priest, welcome!

 

[27B6]

Yeah, Fr. John Peck would be a great resource since he's very active in evangelism and also worked on the Orthodox Study Bible. Plus he can throw cannonballs around like they were nothing (yes, that's a hand grip in his left hand as well).

 

[ArmyMatt]

welcome to TAW!

I can't really add anything to what everyone has said, aside from offer the link that Deborah posted. prayers for you on your journey!

Journey To Orthodoxy — The Orthodox Christian 'Welcome Home' Network

 

[mog144]

This is the latest update to my recent experience with an EO Priest whom I have briefly spoken with via e-mail. In brief, it started out quite well until I asked some questions that seem to have put the man in a corner. He told me that he has trouble digesting what I write. He doesn't understand my questions and now refuses to discuss anything with me. He shut the door on me, indirectly called me satanic, a back-door atheist, prideful and other things. He described how all other churches are evil and then he tells me that I'm a man apart from all others, then says that I'm like all the others. The man is all over the place with his comments.

He never offered any favorable comments about his church but moreover told me how other churches and other people are wrong and wicked. He told me that all other Orthodox churches, even his neighboring EO church are false teachers and his was the only true church. I'm very perplexed by this, are there any two EO churches that are alike? He claims that I have not offended him in any way but does not care to discuss anything further. He's now avoiding discussion just as all the others have.

I've been trodden down again by asking questions. I asked one question that seems to raise a wall; I asked for him to explain how to rightly divide the word and it's as if he is now avoiding the question by cutting me off.

I will not give up though, I am determined to find out what is the problem with churches these days.

 

[gzt]

That sounds really weird. His comment about other Orthodox churches nearby suggests that he's some kind of weird schismatic and not a canonical priest. What jurisdiction was he in? I'm sorry you're having such troubles getting in contact with a normal priest in the Russian tradition.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@mog144

...He told me that all other Orthodox churches, even his neighboring EO church are false teachers and his was the only true church... - hmmm words of priest in your retelling are too strange. Imho better to find somebody else.

 

[mog144]

That sounds really weird. His comment about other Orthodox churches nearby suggests that he's some kind of weird schismatic and not a canonical priest. What jurisdiction was he in? I'm sorry you're having such troubles getting in contact with a normal priest in the Russian tradition.

@mog144

...He told me that all other Orthodox churches, even his neighboring EO church are false teachers and his was the only true church... - hmmm words of priest in your retelling are too strange. Imho better to find somebody else.

I agree with both of you. I'd rather not identify who they are or division, reason is, a CF member sent me a PM and recommended this Priest as they are members of this EO church. They will know who I'm referring to and that can't be avoided and I will spare them the embarrassment.

My intentions are to describe my experience to a Priest and compare with the church because of the powerful inspiration to seek out a 77 Book Canon and the church that uses it so that I can investigate the visions that I have received. Instead, I'm told indirectly that I'm satanic. I don't need to be rebuked but consoled.

The Priest said that the things that I discuss are over his head but yet, he stereotyped me as a back-door atheist and a number of other things.

Now, based on his performance, I'd say that he has failed the test and is not a workman approved, even if I'm at fault in anyway. He is the Priest who is to represent the Father, he is called Father, and for what reason?

I have one Father in heaven and there are no other Gods beside Him, no man of a lower nature may assume His Title as my Father, I'm sorry but that's my position on that.

I suppose that any Orthodox church will treat me the same as any other church has thus far.

God bless those who are listening.

...

 

[Macarius]

I agree with both of you. I'd rather not identify who they are or division, reason is, a CF member sent me a PM and recommended this Priest as they are members of this EO church. They will know who I'm referring to and that can't be avoided and I will spare them the embarrassment.

My intentions are to describe my experience to a Priest and compare with the church because of the powerful inspiration to seek out a 77 Book Canon and the church that uses it so that I can investigate the visions that I have received. Instead, I'm told indirectly that I'm satanic. I don't need to be rebuked but consoled.

Sorry for jumping in late - Welcome to TAW.

The Priest said that the things that I discuss are over his head but yet, he stereotyped me as a back-door atheist and a number of other things.

I cannot speak to the priest's behavior in calling you a back-door atheist, but based on what you wrote above about visions, it is entirely possible that the priests' avoidance of your questions is due to humility and the attempt to guard their own hearts.

There is a strong temptation within a mystic tradition like Orthodoxy towards zeal and pride (I speak here of the priest, not you); the temptation to think that we can interpret dreams, have visions of the Almighty and His hosts, are worthy of spiritual gifts, etc. - these things have RUINED so many people within the Church; one of our most important spiritual texts, The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, is full of warnings against these sort of things.

If you are engaging on that level, then they may back away because they are frankly ill equipped for it. A parish priest is not, by default, a mystic holy man or a guru (in Orthodox terminology, an "elder"); he's someone ordained to oversee a parish, provide front-line pastoral care, and minister the sacraments. To be certain, many priests are holy and pious men, but many are struggling just as you and I, often more so.

Now, based on his performance, I'd say that he has failed the test

You cannot test him. That isn't your role. Sorry to be harsh, but if I were a priest and someone came to me with an attitude that I perceived as testing me, I'd likely lose patience quickly. It would depend on the situation, but it certainly doesn't help.

and is not a workman approved, even if I'm at fault in anyway.

Approved by whom? You? He is already approved by the sacrament of ordination, by the grace of God and the laying-on-of-hands, for exactly the service he is to provide: ministry of the sacraments and basic pastoral care.

He is the Priest who is to represent the Father, he is called Father, and for what reason?

To keep him humble, actually. It is to remind a priest that he is an icon of Christ, our spiritual father (parent) in Christ. He isn't God the Father. There's no way he could live up to that expectation.

I have one Father in heaven

And you have many fathers on earth, including your biological one. I do not know your past, but would you deny your earthly father that title simply because the same word, in a Divine Sense, belongs to the One Father in Heaven?

Does not St. Paul instruct his children that he is their father in Christ? Would you deny St. Paul and the words of Scripture?

The same word does not mean the same thing every time it is used; words can have multiple meanings and nuances of meanings. We, who recite the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed every Divine Liturgy, know full well that "We believe in One God, the Father Almighty..." We also call our priests fathers.

Either we are absolute idiots who can't spot a contradiction a mile away, or we mean two different things by the same word, depending on its context.

and there are no other Gods beside Him, no man of a lower nature may assume His Title as my Father, I'm sorry but that's my position on that.

Well, then you'll have no issue with the Orthodox Church since we call no man God the Father.

We do, however, recognize that we aren't brought into the family of Christ still born and fatherless; we are birthed into the family of Christ by a father in Christ who pulls us from the womb of the baptismal font and spoon feeds us the food (Eucharist) we need to grow strong in Christ. This man, we call father, not because he is God, but because he is a daddy to us in the family of Christ. And it reminds him of that role, and, in most cases, serves as a humbling title (though in some it becomes pride because of the weaknesses of men).

Hope that helps clarify.

I suppose that any Orthodox church will treat me the same as any other church has thus far.

I am not a priest, not by a long shot, and I cannot (and steadfastly will not) give advice on visions, interpretations of visions, or anything along that line; those things can become spiritual traps. I don't know if you have questions outside of that, though, but if you do I can try to help. You can ask here, or you can PM me, either way.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[mog144]

@ Macarius, I thank you sincerely for this, as it is more than I received from a Priest. It's ironic how you, a man and not a priest can offer a better commentary and/or rebuttal

I give you credit where it's due. But on the other hand, I do find you to be a bit blind or misinformed about me. You didn't ask me any questions about myself, rather are confortable with little info that you know about me. You and nobody else have asked me to tell my dream or visions, instead (again) I'm indirectly told that dreams and visions may be satanic. Are you denying the Scriptures, old men will dream dreams?

Are you denying the Scriptures, the spiritual man judges all things, including testing the fruits? Are you judging me as unqualified to test fruits?

Seriously, and respectfully, who are you to judge me without knowing me? You defend the church without even knowing if I just might be St. George reincarnate or Elijah, or a messenger of God. Not saying that I'm a prophet but when were any prophet accepted in his own country? Please, reason with Scripture, not me. You, and all the others have stereotyped me, whether you realize what you've said or not.

I'm not attacking you but pointing out what is obvious to me and merely exercising my freedom of religion and speech in order to defend myself and my conscience.

You did NOT receive the dream or the hundreds of visions that I have therefore, no man can speak for me or against me. You compare natural man with St. Paul, that isn't proper, you don't realize what you're saying when you mentioned St. Paul.

No, I don't compare anybody to him, and you should not either.

And as far as a father of flesh, no, no man in the flesh is my father. The flesh is perishable and God is coming to divide sons from fathers, and so on; He's speaking of the fleshy relatives. I have no regard for the flesh as it will perish and any man who saves his life (flesh) will lose it (spirit).

I have ONE Mother, she is Mother Earth (flesh), I have one Father, He is Spirit. And all those who worship God must worship Him in "Spirit" and in "Truth", it says nothing about worshiping the Father in flesh!

I will argue this point about the flesh and spirit with you and anyone. Honor thy Father and they Mother goes far above the flesh and if you can't see this then you are lost.

Say the same about me, I'm a veteran when it comes to being trampled on. You can't hurt me or change what I have received or change what I have become. I'm not the same man as I was in the flesh, I've been resurrected to a higher intelligence and I'm sorry that this is the case. There is a communication breakdown between the "pi" level minded people and God's level of "phi" intellects just as Moses was above the minds of the others. No man had the same mind as Moses, he was the one that God chose, no other fulfilled that role.

The same goes for all others, each one is a significant part of the BODY. All parts are of ONE and no man may set asunder what God has done and designed from the Beginning.

I don't have the time to address each little point in your reply but I hope that this says it in a nutshell. I love you all and that won't change either. Please forgive me for my attitude if you find it offensive but I mean no harm. I tell it like it is, I don't spare or compromise feelings when it comes to telling what I have been told to do.

Call me satanic, call me anything, you may even crucify me on the cross that I carry with me. piece this together as you will. You're judgment of me won't change my destination but it may change your's. Think about that one for a while!

God bless you all...

 

[Macarius]

But on the other hand, I do find you to be a bit blind or misinformed about me.

Perhaps. If that has caused my reply to err either by replying to the wrong argument (that is, if I've made a straw-man of a point you were making) or through misunderstanding you, then please feel free to clarify as you are comfortable. I can only go on what I see you write (a disadvantage of this particular medium for communication).

You didn't ask me any questions about myself, rather are confortable with little info that you know about me.

Well, since you're phrasing this as an indication that my reply didn't suffice on some level (which is fine; rarely does a first reply suffice) I will say in my defense that I went off of precisely the information you've provided. If there was more information needed to craft a reasonable reply, then (by way of suggestion) you may want to be more forward in providing it. You've shown a desire to maintain privacy (which, given that this is the open internet, I find entirely reasonable) and I assumed that the information you've provided was the information you wanted a reply to. Again, I'm quite open to an ongoing conversation, but I'll be pretty up front about what I can and cannot do.

You and nobody else have asked me to tell my dream or visions,

That is correct. I have not. Obviously, you can write what you like, but I will tell you that I'm unlikely to engage you on that level, even speculatively.

Here is something critical that I really, really need you to understand: my refusal here is NOT because I judge YOUR experience, but rather because I am being CAUTIOUS about my own FINITUDE and PRIDE.

I would guess, in the majority of the cases where priests have avoided you, that something like this is really at the root of their discomfort.

instead (again) I'm indirectly told that dreams and visions may be satanic.

I cannot say whether they are from God or the devil; but yes, they may be satanic; they may not be. Who am I to judge? Were you Orthodox, I'd have much, much more specific advice I could give you. As you are not Orthodox, I'm being more circumspect in my reply simply out of respect for the fact that you aren't Orthodox, aren't committed to our understanding of the Spiritual life and its contours and dangers.

If you like (and here I'm asking), I could tell you what I would say were you Orthodox, but I don't think you'd like it. So some of my hesitancy is also to respect the fact that we have a very new relationship to one another; I don't want to overstep my bounds and judge the experiences of a man about whom I know frankly very little.

It puts me (or any priest you speak with) in a tough spot; you aren't really following our spiritual life, we don't really know you, and yet these experiences you've had are clearly profound for you. What can we say? What IS there to say? Its a tough double bind; if we don't reply, we are being rude - if we do reply, we risk pride for ourselves or offending through passing judgment on a matter we cannot have access to.

Are you denying the Scriptures, old men will dream dreams?

Some do indeed dream and have visions and discernments of the future given to them by God to build up the body of Christ. These are, in the experience of our Church, generally men and women of a venerable sanctity who, through ascesis and the sacraments (or through the crucible of martyrdom) have been purified of the pride and sin which so easily entangles. Even then, MORE numerous are those (of such sanctity) who, after this purification, are tempted by dreams sent by our enemy.

I am not a man of such sanctity. You may be. I don't know you. If you'd like to claim such a holiness, such a Christ-likeness, then, so long as you are outside the bounds of Orthodoxy, that is definitely between you and God. We cannot judge outside the bounds of our communion.

But for my own sake, I cannot and dare not act like a holy man when I am not one. I've a lot of repenting to do first.

Are you denying the Scriptures, the spiritual man judges all things, including testing the fruits? Are you judging me as unqualified to test fruits?

I'm judging myself as unqualified. I think I'm in a position to do at least that much (judge myself unqualified).

If you believe yourself qualified, then why seek our advice? I mean this without irony or sarcasm: I am an admitted sinner and not a holy man; why do you want my advice if you are (genuinely) so much further than me in the spiritual life?

Again, I say that without irony. I'm not being snarky. If you are a spiritual man of the sort you imply, then you're way past me.

That said, since you have asked us for advice, I'll give you what advice I can: be very, very careful of pride. It can delude even those on guard for it.

Seriously, and respectfully, who are you to judge me without knowing me?

Hopefully the above clarifies.

You defend the church without even knowing if I just might be St. George reincarnate or Elijah, or a messenger of God.

Are you making that claim?

On a simple logical level, by this reasoning I'd have to agree with everyone who offers a contrary opinion to my own because they "might be St. George."

Sorry, but if even an angel himself comes to me and preaches a Gospel other than the one which has been delivered to me, I will disagree. I am not a holy man, but that is precisely why I MUST stand firm within the tradition of the Church as given to me - because that tradition IS from holy men, whose lives have been tested and who have fought the good fight. Them I know - I know THEM (the saints and fathers and mothers of our tradition) to be sheep of the flock of Christ.

You I do not know.

So though I am more than willing to listen to what you have to say, and to reply in a brotherly spirit, I am unlikely to waver; again, though, I am confused as to why you come to us. Do you want answers to your objections? This is an honest question; if you don't, then I won't answer your objections (I don't want to be rude and offer an argument where an argument isn't desired). I'll just politely agree to disagree and offer to pray for you, as that's about the limit of what I can do at that point.

Not saying that I'm a prophet

Ok.

but when were any prophet accepted in his own country?

If you aren't a prophet, this doesn't matter. Also, its the "denial" double-bind; if I deny you, you're a prophet - if I accept you, you're a prophet. If I accept this interpretation of this verse, then by definition anyone who claims prophecy is a prophet, and that's patently absurd.

I'd rather just say this: I haven't a clue if you're a prophet or not. But I do know the teachings and traditions of my Church. I cannot pass judgment on those outside the Church, but I sure as heck can hold MYSELF responsible for upholding the Gospel as it has been delivered to me.

Please, reason with Scripture, not me.

I have. My main reply to you about fatherhood in Christ was derived from Scripture and allude to or cited it in several places.

Also, we are not sola scriptura; you know that. We don't merely rely on Scripture, but have 2000 years of spiritual experience and guidance by the Holy Spirit to rely on as well.

You, and all the others have stereotyped me, whether you realize what you've said or not.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but honestly I've not. I hope the above helps clarify.

I'm not attacking you but pointing out what is obvious to me and merely exercising my freedom of religion and speech in order to defend myself and my conscience.

Well, I don't feel attacked. But you did, pointedly, disagree with an Orthodox teaching in a setting where you were asking for answers to your questions; I attempted, not out of defensiveness but out of concern to address your question (since you were frustrated that others were not addressing it), to answer you question.

Simple as that. You made a point, I made a counter point.

You point out what is obvious to you; I point out why it may, in fact, not be as obvious as you believe it to be. That's how dialogue works, as far as I can tell. Unless you aren't interested in dialogue (which is fine), in which case I again ask: why did you come to us? What is it you are looking for?

You are indeed entitled in this country to freedom of speech and religion. I don't think I denied you that; in technical language, that's a red herring fallacy.

There's something a bit absurd about coming into someone else's house (in this case, TAW) arguing with them, and then saying (when they reply in the spirit of dialogue) that you're merely exercising your free speech rights... It's a nonsequitor.

If you don't wish to follow the Orthodox spiritual life, that's fine. We will sincerely wish you well, offer you our prayers, and hope that you find your home in God. We really aren't judgmental towards those outside our communion. Honestly.

But how can you expect, when you've framed your approach to us as a desire for dialogue, NOT to receive dialogue in reply to the questions you raise? When dialogue is requested, why is dialogue considered offensive? Unless I've just missed something here?

You did NOT receive the dream or the hundreds of visions that I have therefore, no man can speak for me or against me. You compare natural man with St. Paul, that isn't proper, you don't realize what you're saying when you mentioned St. Paul.

This sheep does not know the words he is hearing. I cannot and will not comment on your dreams or claims to visions. I don't judge you, but I must, as a sinful man, be cautious with my own soul and my own pride.

Again I ask: what do you WANT from us? What are you looking for? Do you want our (that is, the Orthodox Church's) advice and guidance? If not, then what? Help me understand so I can help you find what it is you are looking for.

And as far as a father of flesh, no, no man in the flesh is my father.

You have no biological dad?

The flesh is perishable and God is coming to divide sons from fathers, and so on; He's speaking of the fleshy relatives. I have no regard for the flesh as it will perish and any man who saves his life (flesh) will lose it (spirit).

That's a misunderstanding of the meaning of σαρξ and its uses in the Pauline corpus. Dualism (a sharp divide between the physical or material body as evil and the spirit or soul as good) is something we have fought against for basically 2000 years (its one of the earliest errors the Church stood against); that's a rather unshakable tradition.

We can discuss why, if you like. I'm more than prepared to reason with you in dialogue; but simply claiming prophetic visions that trump literally ANYTHING I might say to you isn't dialogue. And it implies that you aren't here to dialogue or receive spiritual counsel.

I don't want to say what you are here for, because I don't know, but if you aren't here for counsel or advice, then again I must ask: what are you here for?

I have ONE Mother, she is Mother Earth (flesh), I have one Father, He is Spirit. And all those who worship God must worship Him in "Spirit" and in "Truth", it says nothing about worshiping the Father in flesh!

Except everywhere else in Scripture where worship is mentioned and tied to a physical, material action (e.g. the incense rising before God in heaven in Revelations; the Eucharist and Baptism commanded by both Christ and St. Paul; the instruments and music described in the Psalms and and the songs and spiritual songs described by St. Paul).

In Spirit doesn't mean "not in the flesh." In Spirit means "In the Holy Spirit" (at least in the context of John's Gospel, where Jesus says this line; as later in the text Christ talks of sending the Spirit of Truth - precisely the one in whom we are to worship).

And this is the Orthodox teaching: we, who are material beings by the good design of God and whose material existence has been sanctified by the Incarnation of the Son of God, worship the one God (God the Father) through Jesus Christ His Son (who offered to Him the one true act of worship by the Cross, a material act, and the Resurrection in the flesh) by (or in) the Holy Spirit of Truth who, in His ongoing activity in the Church provides us the MEANS of coming to Christ: the Scriptures, the Sacraments, Grace, etc.

In other words: we worship God the Father. We cannot do that though; so Christ offers Himself as the one act of worship which we, then, may enter in to. This is the Truth. That is; Christ is the Truth. We must worship IN CHRIST to worship in Truth.

Yet how do we come to know the Truth? Only by the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sends, to guide us into all Truth (that is, into Christ). And the means, historically and presently, which the Holy Spirit has provided are these: the Church, the Sacraments, His grace, etc. etc.

So to worship in Spirit (the Holy Spirit) is to use the MEANS given by the Holy Spirit (which are by definition material since we are material beings living in a material world), and this allows us to worship in Christ (in the Truth). So that when we worship the Father, we are worshiping in Spirit and Truth.

Even more in context, Christ at this point was replying to a Samaritan and was saying that location (Jerusalem, Mt. Gerazim, etc.) doesn't matter, but rather the quality of the worship itself.

To take that passage so dramatically out of context and use it as a proof text to dichotomize material from spiritual is, at least on a logical level, poor exegesis. It is also highly a-traditional. So, from my best understanding of Scripture as grounded on my understanding of the Orthodox tradition, I must respectfully disagree with you here.

I will argue this point about the flesh and spirit with you and anyone. Honor thy Father and they Mother goes far above the flesh and if you can't see this then you are lost.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It is clear, though, that you are judging me; and after so many times asking on what grounds I could judge you - on what grounds do you judge me? I am truly a sinner worthy of judgment, so I don't mind, but it seems out of step with the "hey, don't judge me" tone you were using earlier.

Say the same about me,

I have no intention to. Disagreeing with you in a spirit of dialogue is NOT synonymous with judgment. Conflating the two prevents real dialogue from occurring.

I'm a veteran when it comes to being trampled on.

So are we But I've no intention to trample upon you, though I cannot control your perception of my actions.

You can't hurt me

I dearly hope that I do not. I've no desire to hurt anyone.

or change what I have received or change what I have become.

Then why come to us? If you are already perfected, what can we offer to you? Again, this is sincere question (not a rhetorical one).

I'm not the same man as I was in the flesh,

How, then, are you typing words on a keyboard? Clearly you still have a body, and have not fully ascended to the angelic plane of being. Yes, this is a snarky reply ((Just to contrast it with the above)).

I've been resurrected to a higher intelligence and I'm sorry that this is the case. There is a communication breakdown between the "pi" level minded people and God's level of "phi" intellects just as Moses was above the minds of the others. No man had the same mind as Moses, he was the one that God chose, no other fulfilled that role.

Two replies come to mind. First, the "One like Moses" has ALREADY COME and His name is Jesus Christ, who fulfills all the Law and Prophets and about whom the whole of Scripture (the Old Testament) is written. So I am fairly confident about at least this: you are not Moses nor the one who fulfills the Scriptural type of Moses.

Second, seriously (and I mean this), go and pick up a copy of the sayings of the desert fathers and give it a read. I'll provide a link if you like.

The same goes for all others, each one is a significant part of the BODY. All parts are of ONE and no man may set asunder what God has done and designed from the Beginning.

Ok. Not sure how that works into the rest of what was said...

I don't have the time to address each little point in your reply but I hope that this says it in a nutshell.

I hope, in return, that I was able to clarify.

I love you all and that won't change either.

Praise God.

Please forgive me for my attitude if you find it offensive but I mean no harm.

Well, if you're asking, then yes - your attitude is potentially both abrasive and offensive; frankly, I understand full well why priests wouldn't give you the time of day, but we can get into that later, if you like.

I'm just not that easily offended.

I tell it like it is, I don't spare or compromise feelings when it comes to telling what I have been told to do.

Is your goal here to proselytize, then? Honest question.

Call me satanic, call me anything,

I've no intention to do either of those things.

you may even crucify me on the cross that I carry with me. piece this together as you will. You're judgment of me won't change my destination but it may change your's. Think about that one for a while!

Again with the "denial double-bind" - see above. It doesn't work.

And nothing you say or do, or that I say or do, will change either of our destinations. God's judgment is His own, and I have faith in Him to judge with love and justice. You I do not have faith it. Myself, I do not have faith in. HIM I have faith in, and that is enough for me.

If you want people to respond well to you, you might want to avoid implicitly threatening them with hell fire. Just a tip

God bless you all...

I pray that He does.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[ArmyMatt]

heya, mog, sorry to jump in a tad late, but something to keep in mind and I hope this helps, but priests are just as human as the rest of us, so I would say look to another priests if you can, or if you are not getting your answers.

I hope you stick around

 

[Macarius]

Hey Mog,

We can actually reduce my reply more or less to a question: when you are contacting priests, what is it you are hoping to gain / achieve?

In other words, why are you approaching the Orthodox? The assumption of many in this thread has been that you are approaching us in a spirit of inquiry (e.g. considering conversion or wanting clarification); your replies, at least as we've engaged, have left me wondering if that is the case.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[Gnarwhal]

Hey Mog,

We can actually reduce my reply more or less to a question: when you are contacting priests, what is it you are hoping to gain / achieve?

In other words, why are you approaching the Orthodox? The assumption of many in this thread has been that you are approaching us in a spirit of inquiry (e.g. considering conversion or wanting clarification); your replies, at least as we've engaged, have left me wondering if that is the case.

In Christ,
Macarius

Speaking merely as a casual observer, I have to agree.

 

[Dorothea]

I missed that there was a discussion on interpreting dreams. Read the Wisdom of Sirach on that particular topic. He explains it quite well.

 

[gracefullamb]

My intentions are to describe my experience to a Priest and compare with the church because of the powerful inspiration to seek out a 77 Book Canon and the church that uses it so that I can investigate the visions that I have received. Instead, I'm told indirectly that I'm satanic. I don't need to be rebuked but consoled.

I suspect it is this part of your previous post that had Dorothea suggesting reading Wisdom of Sirach might be helpful, since you do state here you wish to speak to a priest in order investigate some visions and dreams you have had.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

If that's what you'd like, that's what I'll do. I agree with the others in echoing Macarius' question - I don't think that you have answered that questions succinctly, and given Macarius' time and patience in his replies to this point I think it would be kind of you to answer his question.

Would you do that, please, if only to clear up any misunderstandings?

 

[Macarius]

Why do you keep badgering me with this same question?

Because you haven't answered it. You've said you want to contact priests, and that they haven't answered your questions, but I haven't seen a clear statement of what it is you want from the priests you are contacting.

I'm asking because I'd rather not make assumptions; I can surmise, easily enough, what appears to be the real reason for your contacting them - but that's just based on a few posts and I don't really know you. I'm asking, in other words, to be polite and so that I can better understand your motives and, thereby, better understand how to help you.

This has already been answered and said in my previous posts

It has? If I've missed it, please let me know what it is you said. I'm certainly prone to mistakes and, though I try to be a careful reader, I could very well have missed it or misunderstood you.

I really am just asking for clarity here.

You have not PM'd me, you are obviously pounding your chest here and I don't care to strive with you.

I'm really not "pounding my chest" here; I'm trying to do for you what it is you have said priests will not do; I'm trying to engage with you. However, I cannot do that effectively unless I know what it is you are seeking / looking for in these conversations.

That's all I'm after here. Seriously.

You know, for a guy who started in this thread complaining a lot about us judging you and stereotyping you, you've rather quickly done the same thing to me. You don't know me. I'm not the chest-pounding type; I don't post here to cause conflict. I like to smooth out differences and help people find what they're looking for. Sometimes that requires an argument, or a sincere disagreement, and I'm not afraid of that, but I try (quite hard, though I don't always succeed) not to argue just for arguments sake.

If I've offended you, I apologize (sincerely). Tone is difficult to convey via the written word. I assure you, I am quite calm while writing these posts, and genuinely interested in the question I've asked of you. I think it will help provide a lot of clarity for the thread topic (which is part of why I'm asking).

If you stick to the topic then fine, it's been said and I believe the discussion of the original question has been satisfied, at least to me.

Well, if you feel it has been satisfied then ok. You just don't sound very satisfied to me, so I assumed you weren't. That may have been a false assumption.

You told me why Priests avoid discussion.

I gave a possibility, yes. I think, though, that there may be something deeper going on, which is why I'm curious about your motives in contacting the priests in the first place.

This is why I came here, to ask that question, is that so difficult for you to comprehend? No, it's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of your pride, and that is obvious because you made that a point, as if to accuse me of being prideful.

My pride does, indeed, get in the way of a lot. If it has offended, I apologize. I don't think you need to start insulting me, though, which is largely what you've begun to do.

I'm not stupid and some other people are not either and I'm certain that many will agree with me but they won't say it here in the open for fear to offend you and other Orthodox, perhaps?

I don't think anyone called you stupid.

And I can't imagine that fear would stop someone from posting in an anonymous internet forum. Possible, yes, but there are more likely explanations available (e.g. people either cannot understand your point or, understanding it, disagree with it; this is an Orthodox subforum after all, most people here are going to agree with or be inclined to agree with an Orthodox perspective).

You have turned this around to beat on me and pound your chest and I'll not contend with you on those terms.

So, let me just make sure I understand this...

You ask us why priests aren't talking to you.

We reply.

You get help to go and find a priest, and after a short exchange he won't continue and you come back wondering why.

To try to understand, we ask some follow up questions about what it is you're seeking / talking about.

This raises some issues and disagreements you have with us, and indicates some potential red flags (e.g. visions) that may deter a priest from wanting to engage in conversation with you.

We begin to offer responses to the things we can respond to (e.g. your disagreements with us), and attempt to explain why the visions are a red flag that may explain the difficulty you're having maintaining contact with a priest.

You get defensive at us for daring to defend our own beliefs in our own subforum, compare yourself to Moses and the prophets, and start arguing more unOrthodox perspectives (dualism).

I realize that, if this is the tone or perspective that you're taking with priests, then the visions might not be the red-flag - there may be something else going on. So I ask a follow up question about what your original motives in contacting a priest were.

You accuse me of pounding my chest, being ignorant with pride, failing to read the thread, and of being a Pharisee.

Do I have the gist of it so far? To clarify my tone in stating the above, since the internet is a poor conveyer of tone, this is being said in as calm a voice as possible; I'm seeking clarity; we've had a communication break down and I'm trying to help put it back together.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[newbeliever02072005]

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