Why do people think Romans 9 is about absolute individual predestination?

[msortwell]

Yes, whom he wills, and he has willed to have mercy on Gentiles who trust in Christ over Jews who seek righteousness by the law.

If the terms translated as "whom" were intended to refer to gentiles (plural), then they would say οὕς, - the plural form. Instead, each uses the singular form, indicating that it refers to God having mercy upon or hardening individuals.

 

[timtams]

In the context of the original quote, "Jacob" and "Esau" stand for Israel and Edom. And yes, God has mercy on individuals, on those among the gentiles who put their faith in Christ rather than on those among the Jews who trust in the law. That is Paul's argument.

 

[msortwell]

In Malachi, Ch. 1, Israel is being addressed and God directs their attention to Esau and Jacob as historical examples of God choosing some while rejecting others. In Malachi, God also spoke of Esau and Jacob as individuals. But they were not being used symbolically.

 

[msortwell]

Yes, whom he wills, and he has willed to have mercy on Gentiles who trust in Christ over Jews who seek righteousness by the law.

Did you misspeak? You indicated that you believe that God has mercy on Jews who seek righteousness by the law?

 

[ToBeLoved]

First, if it were eternal, individual predestination, why does it say God hardens whom he wills? According to the reformed view, all are born beyond hardening and into actual total inability and incapacity to respond to God, not simple hardness?

Vessels of wrath are those God shows great patience with, knowing that they will not repent. This, in turn, hardens them. God shows mercy to whom he wishes (gentiles who exercise faith in the Messiah) and he hardens whom he wishes (by showing patience and forbearance).
Pharaoh was an example of one who refused to repent and whom God raised up knowing that he would not change or repent, and he used that to bring himself greater glory.

I've always found it kind of odd how Calvinists hang their hat so to speak, so much on this verse.

Romans 9:22-24 - 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So there is the verses we are talking about. But I don't see all that many places in the entire Bible that God has hardened many hearts. Yes, He has done it occasionally, with Pharoah, King Saul, possibly Judas and a few other times, but why Calvinists act like this is some regularly occuring theme is beyond me.

IMHO, the verses begin with "What if ...", which in my mind shows more of a hypothetical or something God does not do often.

I'd like Calvinists to say why they think these two words are in this verse and what they think it means

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, whom he wills, and he has willed to have mercy on Gentiles who trust in Christ over Jews who seek righteousness by the law.

How do you account for these words?

1 Timothy 2:1-5
1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men 2for kings and all those in authority, so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

Seems to me "all" would include even the Jews.

 

[msortwell]

I've always found it kind of odd how Calvinists hang their hat so to speak, so much on this verse.

Romans 9:22-24 - 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So there is the verses we are talking about. But I don't see all that many places in the entire Bible that God has hardened many hearts. Yes, He has done it occasionally, with Pharoah, King Saul, possibly Judas and a few other times, but why Calvinists act like this is some regularly occuring theme is beyond me.

IMHO, the verses begin with "What if ...", which in my mind shows more of a hypothetical or something God does not do often.

I'd like Calvinists to say why they think these two words are in this verse and what they think it means

The "what if" of 9:22 is similar to Rom 3:3. It asks a question that demands thr reader cope with the answer the text within the immediate context answers.

 

[msortwell]

How do you account for these words?

1 Timothy 2:1-5
1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men 2for kings and all those in authority, so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

Seems to me "all" would include even the Jews.

Some in the Reformed camp see within the Scriptures reason to expect that God will do a great redeeming work among the Jews as the return of Christ approaches. There certainly seems to be no biblical basis to believe that the Jews, as a class, are to be permanently excluded.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some in the Reformed camp see within the Scriptures reason to expect that God will do a great redeeming work among the Jews as the return of Christ approaches. There certainly seems to be no biblical basis to believe that the Jews, as a class, are to be permanently excluded.

The focus of those verses was not on Jew or Gentile but the word “all”.

Please read it again

 

[Bobber]

I've always found it kind of odd how Calvinists hang their hat so to speak, so much on this verse.

Romans 9:22-24 - 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

So there is the verses we are talking about. But I don't see all that many places in the entire Bible that God has hardened many hearts. Yes, He has done it occasionally, with Pharoah, King Saul, possibly Judas and a few other times, but why Calvinists act like this is some regularly occuring theme is beyond me.

IMHO, the verses begin with "What if ...", which in my mind shows more of a hypothetical or something God does not do often.

I'd like Calvinists to say why they think these two words are in this verse and what they think it means

Good point! And yet their whole theology hangs on this "what if..."

 

[msortwell]

The focus of those verses was not on Jew or Gentile but the word “all”.

Please read it again

Universalism? Is that what you are forwarding?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Universalism? Is that what you are forwarding?

The point of those verses is that Christ wants all to be saved.

I think that is a huge hit against Calvinism.

Just wanted a Calvinist to show or explain how “all” doesn’t mean “all”. Unless they think Jesus lied

 

[msortwell]

The point of those verses is that Christ wants all to be saved.

I think that is a huge hit against Calvinism.

Just wanted a Calvinist to show or explain how “all” doesn’t mean “all”. Unless they think Jesus lied

In the original language . . .
1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. (ORIGINAL)

πάντας is the word in the original language translate "all". Its base form is πάs. If you perform an Enlishman's search for the way the term is translated, you will find tha context is used by translators to translate it as "all" or "all manner/types of" or other options. Like "all" in the English language context determines the meaning. We do not think a person a liar or fool if they say "All dogs have for legs," even though we have seen 3 legged dogs. God desires to save all (manner) of men:rich, poor, men, women, weak, powerfu . . .

The prophet wrote . . .

Isaiah 59:1
59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: KJV

The necessary implication is that God CAN save. So 1 Tim 2:4 presents us with a question. Since Scripture tells me that, ultimately not ALL men (without exception) will be saved, either God cannot accomplish what he desires, doesn't want what Paul wrote that God desires, or ALL might mean something other than "all men without exception." It means all manner of men, without distinction.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In the original language . . .
1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. (ORIGINAL)

πάντας is the word in the original language translate "all". Its base form is πάs. If you perform an Enlishman's search for the way the term is translated, you will find tha context is used by translators to translate it as "all" or "all manner/types of" or other options. Like "all" in the English language context determines the meaning. We do not think a person a liar or fool if they say "All dogs have for legs," even though we have seen 3 legged dogs. God desires to save all (manner) of men:rich, poor, men, women, weak, powerfu . . .

The prophet wrote . . .

Isaiah 59:1
59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: KJV

The necessary implication is that God CAN save. So 1 Tim 2:4 presents us with a question. Since Scripture tells me that, ultimately not ALL men (without exception) will be saved, either God cannot accomplish what he desires, doesn't want what Paul wrote that God desires, or ALL might mean something other than "all men without exception." It means all manner of men, without distinction.

Combing Hebrew and Isaiah with 1 Timothy and Greek does little to make your point.

Who mixes Covenants if they are talking about Christ?

 

[msortwell]

Combing Hebrew and Isaiah with 1 Timothy and Greek does little to make your point.

Who mixes Covenants if they are talking about Christ?

Ummmmmm . . . You are in the Covenant Theology forum. Covenant Theology "mixes" the covenants, as it were. The God of Isaiah is the God of Paul. The God with the power to save in Isaiah's day is the God with the power to save today.

AND . . , Paul refereences the words of Isaiah twice in Romans 9, so he seemed to believe that they had application in for New Covenant church.

You asked for an explanation regarding "all". I provided an explanation.

 

[msortwell]

Combing Hebrew and Isaiah with 1 Timothy and Greek does little to make your point.

Who mixes Covenants if they are talking about Christ?

We must face the truth that either: 1) God cannot save everyone he desires to save, or 2) God desires to save only some.

BTW . . . Romans 9 is not so much about predestination as election - just to be clear.

 

[roman2819]

Clearly it's about God choosing the Gentiles who are faithful to the gospel while rejecting Israel who seeks righteousness through the law. How did people read the doctrines of the Greek philosophers Zeno and Plotinus into that and conclude it's about no free will and absolute individual predestination?

In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….


Note that the apostle used the word "you Gentiles". '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.

 

[roman2819]

Romans 9 is about God's sovereign election of individuals to salvation from both the Jews and the Gentiles.

Romans 9:22-24 - 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

The "us whom he has called" refers to the elect - the object of this text. The elect are individuals called from both the Jews and the Gentiles.

I don't know much about Zeno or Plotinus but I don't think that their ideas are necessary for understanding Paul's words on election here. Neither is a strange concept like "freewill" necessary for understanding Paul's words. This passage has nothing to do with the philosophical concept of freewill. It's about God's sovereign election of individuals to salvation.

I have to disagree totally.

In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….


Note that the apostle used the word "you Gentiles". '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

We must face the truth that either: 1) God cannot save everyone he desires to save, or 2) God desires to save only some.

BTW . . . Romans 9 is not so much about predestination as election - just to be clear.

I agree with #2, at this point. And this is because "God chose not to force people to be saved, though He desires all to come to the knowledge of the Truth." We also have competing personal desires and make choices which to put above the other, too. Why can't God? But, I am still re-examining the possibility of God circling back for all, at some point after a long time of consequences.

#1 is false, because if God is truly God, and therefore the Absolute unstoppable Sovereign--the only True and Living God, as Jesus says He is, and the Scripture cannot be broken--He CAN certainly save everyone. If He can't save everyone, then He is not omnipotent.

 

[msortwell]

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

Predestination and Sovereign Election are inextricably linked. And Paul teaches clearly that election goes to the individual.

(NKJV) Rom 9:10-13 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Paul would seem to disagree.