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why do people believe the earths flat

Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by jasonMalloy1999, Dec 19, 2019.

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  1. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Ok, let's try this another way. Is 40, Pro 8, Job 38, Ez 45, (and all the others)... none of them are talking about the earth being flat OR a sphere. Insisting they do is just forcing something into the scripture that just isn't there.

    This is what I was talking about before. If someone disagree's with you, you automatically assume that they haven't done the same research or due diligence and their arguments are weak. You insist that I must prove the fact that I've studied all of these scriptures to your satisfaction... talk about arrogance. Fact is I've preached on almost all of these scriptures at one point or another and they had nothing to do with a flat (or sphere) earth. I'm certainly not going to reproduce a dozen or more sermons to satisfy one person's ego.
     
  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It is described as flat because that's how most people would describe it, day to day.

    You can describe all matter as mostly empty space with bits of energy here and there, but most people experience it as something solid.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Don't do it for your ego then, do it for the glory of God.

    upload_2019-12-23_1-44-25.jpeg
     
  4. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    So you don't understand both the shape of the Earth and glorifying God... I guess that actually kinda makes sense.
     
  5. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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  6. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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  7. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    No arrogance. Just asking why you think Scripture does not say the earth is flat. Is that too much to ask? I don't think so but you for some reason are averse to sharing your explanation. Discussions without explanations are fruitless, hence my questions to you repeatedly asking for your rationale. I certainly didn't ask you for your sermon series did I?
    All you have given me is a list of books/chapters with no verse numbers. Why is that? Is it too difficult to also include the verses? Is it too difficult to also include your explanation of along with it? Your response is underwhelming.
    Nonetheless, I'll respond to these scripture chapters and guess which verses you're referring to.
    Is 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth; its dwellers are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
    The word "circle" is from the Greek "chug" which means a circle - NOT SPHERE. A circle by definition is two-dimensional with its flat inner area surrounded by its circular boundary. A sphere by definition is three-dimensional. Therefore Isaiah used a chug to describe the flat, circular earth; not a orbed earth as you mistakenly attribute.

    Prov 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
    Same word as in Is 40:22 with my same explanation; circle NOT sphere.

    Job 38:14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
    ”Seal”
    is a translation from the Hebrew word ”chotham” (Strong’s 2368) and apart from seal it can mean a signet-ring. When clay is pressed under a seal it creates a FLAT seal used to authorize and seal documents in those days.
    Job 38:13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (NIV)
    Other English translations say "ends of the earth." How can a spherical earth have edges/ends?? By contrast, a flat earth with its outer edge as a circle fits.

    Eze 45 I don't see flat earth referred to in this chapter so I have no idea what you're referring to since you provided no explanation.

    I've provided my explanations based on your cited texts. If you disagree, feel free to provide your counter-reply with your explanation. If no explanation is forthcoming, don't bother to reply. Suffice to say we agree to disagree even though I have no idea why you disagree.
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect as you have chosen to use an anthropocentric argument and apply it to the scriptures. Day to day descriptions written from the perspective of men in the Bible do not apply. Instead, men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures. The scriptures are written from a theocentric point of view. God inspired men to write down the descriptions of the earth/cosmology how he created/shaped it and not how men saw it.
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Day to day descriptions always apply except for the creation week of paradise, which was a spiritual creation found in the first book, and it's mirror, the end times found in the last book.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It's mostly flat and there is no scientific argument against that.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Very few of those are regarding the shape of the earth.

    "Earth Created Before the Sun:
    Genesis 1:1-19
    Universe is Complete, NOT ever
    expanding: Genesis 2:1
    Earth Measurements Unknown: Job
    38:4-5, Job 38:18, Jeremiah 31:37,
    Proverbs 25:3
    Earth is a Disk/Circle, not a ball:
    Isaiah 40:22, Job 38:13-14
    Earth Measured with a Line, not a
    curve: Job 38:4-5
    A "PLAIN" can't exist on a ball, only
    a "FLAT/LEVEL" surface, of which,
    Yeshua (aka Jesus) stood
    upon: Luke 6:17
    Paths are Straight, not curved:
    1 Samuel 6:12, Psalm 5:8, Psalm
    27:11, Isaiah 40:3, Jeremiah 31:9,
    Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4,
    John 1:23, Acts 16:11, Acts 21:1,
    Hebrews 12:13
    Waters are Straight, not curved:
    Job 37:10
    Earthquakes shake Earth, and does
    not move: 2 Samuel 22:8, Isaiah
    13:13, Revelation 6:12-13
    Earth is fixed and immovable:
    1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 33:9,
    Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10,
    Psalm 104:5, Psalm 119:89-90,
    Isaiah 14:7, Isaiah 45:18,
    Zechariah 1:11, 2 Peter 3:5
    “Be still, and know that I am God”:
    Psalm 46:10
    Earth has Pillars, and hangs on
    nothing: 1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6,
    Job 26:7, Psalm 75:3
    Earth has a Face (a geometrical flat
    surface): Genesis 1:29,
    Genesis 4:14, Genesis 6:1,
    Genesis 6:7, Genesis 7:3,
    Genesis 7:4, Genesis 8:9,
    Genesis 11:8, Genesis 11:9,
    Genesis 41:56, Exodus 32:12,
    Exodus 33:16, Numbers 12:3,
    Deuteronomy 6:15, Deuteronomy 7:6,
    1 Samuel 20:15, 1 Kings 13:34,
    Job 37:12, Psalm 104:30,
    Jeremiah 25:26, Jeremiah 28:16,
    Ezekiel 34:6, Ezekiel 38:20,
    Ezekiel 39:14, Amos 9:6, Amos 9:8,
    Zechariah 5:3, Luke 12:56
    Waters have a Face (a geometrical
    flat surface): Genesis 1:2, Genesis
    7:18, Job 38:30
    Sky has a Face (a geometrical flat
    surface): Matthew 16:3, Luke 12:56
    Earth has Ends: Deuteronomy 28:49,
    Deuteronomy 28:64, Deuteronomy
    33:17, 1 Samuel 2:10, Job 37:3, Job
    38:13, Psalm 46:9, Psalm 48:10,
    Psalm 59:13, Psalm 61:2, Psalm 65:5,
    Psalm 67:7, Psalm 72:8, Psalm 98:3,
    Psalm 135:7, Proverbs 8:29, Proverbs
    17:24, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 5:26,
    Isaiah 26:15, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah
    41:5, Isaiah 41:9, Isaiah 42:10, Isaiah
    43:6, Isaiah 45:22, Isaiah 48:20,
    Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 52:10, Jeremiah
    10:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah
    25:31, Jeremiah 25:33, Jeremiah
    51:16, Daniel 4:22, Micah 5:4,
    Zechariah 9:10, Matthew 12:42,
    Luke 11:31, Acts 13:47
    "
     
  12. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Respect is earned, brother. Bring forth your scriptures.
     
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. ALL OF SCRIPTURE is divinely inspired. Not just those that you pick and choose.
    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2 Tim 3:16
     
  14. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    You are correct, but they're all contra so-called standard model cosmology in one way or another. A picture develops as to Biblical cosmology, which is a central, flat, motionless and enclosed earth under heaven.

    For pointing that out I'll show you a good one.

    Looking up from earth:
    "Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a molten mirror? (Job 37:18)

    Looking down from heaven:
    And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. (Rev 15:2)
     
  15. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    OK, I'll give this a shot and address 2 scriptures and my overall objection. Let's watch and see what happens. So far it doesn't look promising:

    Already you seem to have failed to grasp my "underwhelming" response. I previously said that I do not think these reverences are about the Earth being flat OR a sphere... they are not about the shape of the Earth whatsoever. This is one reason why I hesitate to even go any further, it's already falling on deaf ears. Yet I continue...

    Your demeaning tone is noted, but this was on purpose. Let's take the first scripture you mentioned, Is 40:22. I referenced the entire chapter because the context is important. I'm not looking at one verse in a vacuum, but the complete context. I even look at chapters 39 & 41 and more if needed. The chapter is a prophetic word. A word about bringing comfort and encouragement to God's people and about God's glory being manifest. Part of the encouragement are reminders of God's power, His ability to perform, His knowledge, wisdom and greatness.

    It would be out of context for God to drop a science lesson in the middle of that. Chug means vault or horizon, the context of verse 22 is God sitting above that. It is similar terminology imagery to when we read phrases like "the ends of the Earth" in the Bible. Such phrases are used to convey great distances... the greatest distances that can be seen. Everyone knows what a horizon is and what it looks like. It's not a geometric reference it is a experiential reference that everyone can relate to. Sitting at such a high place or above it expresses that God is above all and sees all. This is perfectly in fitting with the context of the rest of the chapter, describing God's greatness.

    Verse 11 says that He will gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom. I don't see flat earther's claiming God is literally scooping sheep up into the sky. Verse 26 says He calls us all by name, I don't see flat earther's claiming that God is audibly shouting out our name for all to hear. Yet, this is the type of logic applied to verse 22.


    The main reason I oppose this idea beyond just specific scriptures is that ultimately biblical flat earth actually steals glory from Jesus. It takes the focus away from Him. Just look at this entire conversation, it doesn't mention Jesus in any significant, glorifying or saving light at all.

    Look at another common scripture used by flat earthers Matt 3:3 (which is also in Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23... all of which actually are quoting the same Is 40 in verse 4). Since the source is Is 40 the same overall context from above applies, the greatness of God. Flat earthers say a curved surface wouldn't produce a straight line and use all these scriptures to prove their point. Yet every single one of these scriptures are clearly referencing John the Baptist (specific context). John was the greatest of the OT prophets (see consistent context) pointed the way to Jesus who was even greater (more consistent context). But now instead of pointing the way to Jesus people are arguing about the curvature of the Earth? So, God was really more interested in the geometry of the Earth than pointing people to Jesus?

    My family and I watch survivor together. Every now and then they do a challenge where most of the tribe is blindfolded and they have one "caller" directing them to where they should go. The caller is very much a picture of the prophetic in Is 40. The caller will yell to their tribe to turn left/right/or whatever then yell at them something like "go straight... straight, straight, straight... stop!". So my question is: is the caller taking a stance on the shape of the Earth when shouting this? (I'm assuming reader's answers will correctly be, "no"). Instead they are using the word "straight" to help guide the listener to the desired destination. The same is true with all of these scriptures. To force these scriptures to be about a flat OR sphere Earth is to distract from and take away from God guiding us in the direction and destination of Jesus.

    Romans 1:25 talks of how some will exchange the truth of God for a lie. And the sign that this is happening is that people will begin to worship the creation rather than the creator. This is exactly what ever single "flat earth" scripture interpretation does. It takes focus away from the Creator and puts it on the creation.

    You asked for my reasoning, there it is in a nutshell. I could do something along these lines with all 200 scriptures mentioned in another post. Flat Earth arguments are shoehorned in word games that steal glory from Jesus, and force all observational science on the subject to be wrong or a lie, which requires the believer of the theory to see the worst in people, even other Christians. There is nothing positive or edifying about the subject whatsoever.
     
  16. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    And disrespect is demonstrated... so, good job.

    I wasn't asking anyone to respect me personally or not. I was asking them to respect the idea that I have studied the subject and can still disagree with them. As well as respect the fact that I do not wish to get into some massive back and forth, which always happens.

    Yet, I responded with scripture anyway, so you got your way.
     
  17. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:7-9)

    The Bible is consistent throughout on the flatness of the earth. The HS is not in the business of rendering imperfect metaphors.
     
  18. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Careful, I'm highly susceptible to flattery.

    Swallowed a camel?
     
  19. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    The Bible is not talking about the flatness of the Earth. The Holy Spirit's metaphors are just fine, your interpretation is not.
     
  20. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Pot meet kettle?
     
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