Why do most christians not follow the 10 commandments?

[Doug Melven]

Torah is about WALKING UPRIGHT in OBEDIENCE. Nothing more, nothing less

What is not clear is what exactly is Torah?
So many people see Torah, and they automatically say it is the 10 Commandments.
In Psalm 119 it says 9 times to quicken. That is to make alive.
But, the 10 Commandments cannot give life.
Then there is this strange verse at the end.
119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
If the Psalmist remembered the commandments, why would he say he went astray.
Clearly there are 2 different things being talked about in this verse.

 

[Copperhead]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Ex: 12:49"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." Lev 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"'

Well, I don't live in Israel, so this doesn't apply. Your choice of supporting text is in error.

You clearly do not understand what to kindle a fire involves. Starting a fire with just the means they had was INTENSELY laborious. As anyone who is into serious survival bushwacking. The means by which they would have had to start a fire would have been friction. Even someone who is an expert will tell you it is a LOT of work. There is ZERO comparison to pushing a button (or turning a key) and what would have been required to kindle a fire.

I would contend that you do not understand. Go ask a Hassidic Rabbi and see what response you get about starting a car engine is not kindling a fire.

 

[bugkiller]

I see, so what you are really saying is that G-d is a liar?

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

You're conflating the sin sacrifice with the rest of Torah which is the instruction manual on how to walk upright before Adonai.

At the very root of your entire argument is an attempt to conflate observance with salvation and it is the most commonly erroneous argument that "Christians" make to justify "doing right in their own eyes."

At the end of the day if you Agree that the believer should obey the 10 commandments then you are picking and choosing which part of the Torah you will obey, and which parts you will reject.

The Tanakh makes CRYSTAL CLEAR that the "new covenant" is the Torah written in your mind and upon your heart.... there is NO ESCAPING that reality.

I understand the Torah to be the law. Is this correct in you opinion? Most everyone I know including Jews say the Torah is the law. In this matter I believe a Jew.

bugkiller

 

[Copperhead]

Torah is about WALKING UPRIGHT in OBEDIENCE. Nothing more, nothing less

Really? What did the Jerusalem Council say about the Torah and new believers? And what did Yeshua say about the Torah?

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV) “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

John 5:39-40 (NKJV) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

The testimony at the Jerusalem Council regarding binding new believers to circumcision and ritual observance of the Torah....

Acts 15:10 (NKJV) Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And what did the Council state in their letter?.....

Acts 15:23-29 (NKJV Strong's,) They wrote this, letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Torah observance can be a slippery slope. If allowed, it can be a source of pride and eventually sin in a person. If one thinks they are keeping the Torah better than someone else, that can lead to being puffed up (pride) and a sense of "I am better than the other guy". That is sin. So in fact, ritual Torah observance can lead to sin in some. Even deriding someone because they don't follow all the Torah as one does, that is sin. One needs to be careful when it comes to advocating literal observance of the Torah. That is treading on dangerous turf. Better to follow Yeshua's interpretation in Matthew 22.

 

[ralliann]

I find joy in following the commandments of God, and they also make sense scientifically and mathematically. But, that doesn't matter.

If you can show me a place where God said that we don't have to follow the previous laws He placed - better known as the laws of Moses and the Prophets - then I am truly and sincerely all ears.

But, it has to be from the Ones who have authority over the law: Christ and/or the Most High God. I mean that. (I am not talking about being obedient for the sake of salvation.)

 

[ralliann]

Really? What did the Jerusalem Council say about the Torah and new believers? And what did Yeshua say about the Torah?

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV) “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

John 5:39-40 (NKJV) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

The testimony at the Jerusalem Council regarding binding new believers to circumcision and ritual observance of the Torah....

Acts 15:10 (NKJV) Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And what did the Council state in their letter?.....

Acts 15:23-29 (NKJV Strong's,) They wrote this, letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Torah observance can be a slippery slope. If allowed, it can be a source of pride and eventually sin in a person. If one thinks they are keeping the Torah better than someone else, that can lead to being puffed up (pride) and a sense of "I am better than the other guy". That is sin. So in fact, ritual Torah observance can lead to sin in some. Even deriding someone because they don't follow all the Torah as one does, that is sin. One needs to be careful when it comes to advocating literal observance of the Torah. That is treading on dangerous turf. Better to follow Yeshua's interpretation in Matthew 22.

That's just it. They are not keeping torah of moses. It is impossible to be doing that since the destruction of the temple.

 

[ralliann]

I find joy in following the commandments of God, and they also make sense scientifically and mathematically. But, that doesn't matter.

If you can show me a place where God said that we don't have to follow the previous laws He placed - better known as the laws of Moses and the Prophets - then I am truly and sincerely all ears.

But, it has to be from the Ones who have authority over the law: Christ and/or the Most High God. I mean that. (I am not talking about being obedient for the sake of salvation.)

So, Israel was not saved from wrath when obedient? What salvation is it you are referring to?
Salvation from cruel bondage????
Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
Salvation from loss in battle with an enemy.......
2Ch 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Salvation from death itself......
La 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

 

[Copperhead]

That's just it. They are not keeping torah of moses. It is impossible to be doing that since the destruction of the temple.

And that is true. But the Jerusalem council in Acts that I referred to was before the destruction of the Temple. They set the precedence that all the Apostles agreed to and gave as a directive.

Really, the only issue that seems to divide folks on the keeping the Law idea is the Shabbat. No one really argues about adultery, murder, stealing, etc that is also part the 10 commandments. Those center around the basic idea that Yeshua taught about loving one's neighbor as oneself.

The danger in focusing in on one law like the Shabbat and using it as a standard to judge others is the risk of falling into pride. That somehow the person who ritually observes the Shabbat is better than the other person who does not. Paul had some very definite words about such things, and those words were not complimentary. The Torah exposes sin in us. It is possible that those who are so focused on Shabbat and holding it over others heads are in fact sinning because they have fallen into pride.

Colossians 2:16-17 (TLV) Therefore, do not let anyone pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink, or in respect to a festival or new moon or Shabbat. 17 These are a foreshadowing of things to come, but the reality is Messiah.

If one chooses to hold tight to Shabbat observance with humility, that is to be honored. But if they hold to Shabbat observance in any other way, and make it a standard for others, then they are not acting out of humility and love but in fact turning to works righteousness, which is sin. And then we digress into arguments on what constitutes proper observance of Shabbat. It then becomes a pit to fall in to.

 

[BukiRob]

What is not clear is what exactly is Torah?
So many people see Torah, and they automatically say it is the 10 Commandments.
In Psalm 119 it says 9 times to quicken. That is to make alive.
But, the 10 Commandments cannot give life.
Then there is this strange verse at the end.
119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
If the Psalmist remembered the commandments, why would he say he went astray.
Clearly there are 2 different things being talked about in this verse.

What? lol

The first 5 books are the Torah.
Nevi'im are the prophets
Ketuvim are the writings
They make up the TaNaKh

Perhaps if you spent some time with believers who grew up in a Jewish observant family you would begin to see just how much the church is missing

 

[BukiRob]

Really? What did the Jerusalem Council say about the Torah and new believers? And what did Yeshua say about the Torah?

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV) “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

John 5:39-40 (NKJV) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

The testimony at the Jerusalem Council regarding binding new believers to circumcision and ritual observance of the Torah....

Acts 15:10 (NKJV) Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And what did the Council state in their letter?.....

Acts 15:23-29 (NKJV Strong's,) They wrote this, letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Torah observance can be a slippery slope. If allowed, it can be a source of pride and eventually sin in a person. If one thinks they are keeping the Torah better than someone else, that can lead to being puffed up (pride) and a sense of "I am better than the other guy". That is sin. So in fact, ritual Torah observance can lead to sin in some. Even deriding someone because they don't follow all the Torah as one does, that is sin. One needs to be careful when it comes to advocating literal observance of the Torah. That is treading on dangerous turf. Better to follow Yeshua's interpretation in Matthew 22.

And you read that and dont even know what is being said because you choose to read it from your modern, gentile perspective Oh, and I do find it exceedingly interesting that you COMPLETELY ignore what James said in Acts 15:21
21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

Furthermore, you don't even know what James is talking about in the verses you posted.

All 4 of the things mentioned both in Verse 20 and in 28 are ALL directly associated with IDOLATRY that was rampant in the gentile countries that were being evangelized. To the Jewish mind, the GREATEST sin was Idolatry and it was the ONLY sin for which Both Judah and Isreal were removed from the land.

Temple life in these pagan nations was the CENTER of life in the cities in which these new converts lived.

In verse 21 James is instructing the very same way the church would do with a newly converted beliver who has no experience with the bible, walk or church. Baby steps. Deal with the weighter sin first then spoon feed them as they go. What we dont do is unload everything through a firehose and hope they catch it all... hence the admonishion of vesre 12 about the synagogue... they will be there on SABBATH and will start to LEARN.

As much as you attempt to nullify the word you have a big problem... explain why if Torah is done away with how it is that YOU and everyone else on earth WILL be required to observe it during the Millenial reign of Messiah? You know, the whole part about if any nation refuses to present themselves at the appointed times, that Yeshua will withhold rain from their lands?

 

[BukiRob]

The danger in focusing in on one law like the Shabbat and using it as a standard to judge others is the risk of falling into pride. That somehow the person who ritually observes the Shabbat is better than the other person who does not. Paul had some very definite words about such things, and those words were not complimentary. The Torah exposes sin in us. It is possible that those who are so focused on Shabbat and holding it over others heads are in fact sinning because they have fallen into pride.

Colossians 2:16-17 (TLV) Therefore, do not let anyone pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink, or in respect to a festival or new moon or Shabbat. 17 These are a foreshadowing of things to come, but the reality is Messiah.

If one chooses to hold tight to Shabbat observance with humility, that is to be honored. But if they hold to Shabbat observance in any other way, and make it a standard for others, then they are not acting out of humility and love but in fact turning to works righteousness, which is sin. And then we digress into arguments on what constitutes proper observance of Shabbat. It then becomes a pit to fall in to.

I don't disagree with the premise here... except when there are those to try and MOVE when Shabbat occurs. It is the 6th day from sunset to sunset. HOW you observe it is between you and Adonai.

If one tries and argue that Sabbath is "whenever I want it to be (AKA Sunday)" then that is gross error

 

[BukiRob]

Well, I don't live in Israel, so this doesn't apply. Your choice of supporting text is in error.



I would contend that you do not understand. Go ask a Hassidic Rabbi and see what response you get about starting a car engine is not kindling a fire.

Traditions of man vs what scripture actually says.

 

[Copperhead]

While people did meet on Shabbat, that was never a requirement in Torah, except on High Holy Days. Shabbat is a day of rest. Man’s tradition makes it a weekly day of meeting. One can be fully in line with Torah if they rest from their labors on the 7th day and go to service on the 1st.

That does beg the question: those that are so insistent on Shabbat observance, do they follow the requirements of Shabbat observance on feast days, irregardless of what day of the week they fall? After all, the scripture is clear that failing at one point is failure of the entire Torah.

 

[Shimshon]

And you read that and dont even know what is being said because you choose to read it from your modern, gentile perspective Oh, and I do find it exceedingly interesting that you COMPLETELY ignore what James said in Acts 15:21
21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

In verse 21 James is instructing the very same way the church would do with a newly converted beliver who has no experience with the bible, walk or church. Baby steps. Deal with the weighter sin first then spoon feed them as they go. What we dont do is unload everything through a firehose and hope they catch it all... hence the admonishion of vesre 12 about the synagogue... they will be there on SABBATH and will start to LEARN.

One Law teachers make a big point of James’s statement that “Moses has been read every week in the Synagogue” (Acts 15:21). This is taken to imply that Gentile believers will, in the normal course of their new life, attend synagogue and adopt more and more of the whole Torah. Since Torah life is good and beautiful, why wouldn’t he? On this basis, the verse is taken as an exhortation to further learning and the adoption of the whole Torah. Thus, One Law teachers transform an ambiguous statement into a strong and unambiguous exhortation.

They apparently overlook, however, the fact that these words spoken in the council were not included in the apostolic letter that was circulated among the congregations. If this were such a crucial exhortation to Gentiles, it is amazing indeed that the apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, did not think it important enough to put in their letter!

It is most telling that in all the epistles to congregations there is not a single word commanding Gentiles to adopt the whole Torah, and no direct statement of hope that they will eventually adopt a fully Torahkeeping life in the same way as the Jews. There is no word of such an exhortation or even mild encouragement throughout the whole book of Acts, which is written in part to show the relationship of Jewish-Gentile fellowship!

Even were we to say that Gentiles are free to embrace Torah, the calendar of Israel, and more, there is no word that there is any covenant responsibility for Gentiles to do so. Acts 21 reinforces this impression. Here James tells Paul of the rumor that he teaches Jews who embrace Yeshua to forsake Torah. This of course is not true. So, Paul demonstrates this to be a false rumor by his Temple involvement. James reminds Paul that Gentiles were freed from responsibility for the full weight of Torah. Neither Paul nor James gives the slightest hint that they were encouraging full Torah observance among Gentiles. Paul could have said, “Not only do I not teach Jews to forsake Moses, but I even encourage Gentiles to embrace more and more of the Torah as they come to understand and appreciate it.” This is the emphasis of the One Law teachers, but there is not one word in the New Testament that explicitly encourages Gentiles to grow in keeping the whole Torah.

Dr. Daniel Juster, founder and director of Tikkun International, has been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement since 1972 and currently resides in Jerusalem, Israel, from where he serves and supports the Messianic movement worldwide. Dan was the founding president and general secretary of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations for 9 years, the senior pastor of Beth Messiah congregation for 22 years, and a co-founder of the Messiah Bible Institute in several nations. Dr. Juster serves on the board of Towards Jerusalem Council II, provides oversight to 15 congregations in the USA as well as overseeing emissaries in Israel and the Former Soviet Union. Daniel has authored about 20 books on topics ranging from theology, Israel and the Jewish people, eschatology, discipleship, and leadership. Dr. Daniel Juster, founder and director of Tikkun International, has been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement since 1972 and currently resides in Jerusalem, Israel, from where he serves and supports the Messianic movement worldwide. Dan was the founding president and general secretary of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations for 9 years, the senior pastor of Beth Messiah congregation for 22 years, and a co-founder of the Messiah Bible Institute in several nations. Dr. Juster serves on the board of Towards Jerusalem Council II, provides oversight to 15 congregations in the USA as well as overseeing emissaries in Israel and the Former Soviet Union. Daniel has authored about 20 books on topics ranging from theology, Israel and the Jewish people, eschatology, discipleship, and leadership.

 

[Shimshon]

Furthermore, you don't even know what James is talking about in the verses you posted.

All 4 of the things mentioned both in Verse 20 and in 28 are ALL directly associated with IDOLATRY that was rampant in the gentile countries that were being evangelized. To the Jewish mind, the GREATEST sin was Idolatry and it was the ONLY sin for which Both Judah and Isreal were removed from the land.

Significant passages that speak to Gentile practice in the New Covenant provide clear evidence that the One Law view is not correct.

Let us first return to Acts 15, which discusses the assertion by some believers that a man must be circumcised in order to be saved. The conclusion of the Apostles and Elders (Acts 15:20), under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was to lay upon the Gentiles only four requirements:

• to avoid fornication
• to avoid idolatry
• to avoid eating blood
• to avoid eating that which is strangled.

As has been noted, these are very similar to the Noahide laws. This does not mean that Gentiles are free to murder, steal, and dishonor their parents. The passage assumes a universal morality, as do Paul, Peter, and James (who were present that day), and John in their writings. As Romans 2 notes, Gentiles can perceive the law of God, even without the revelation of Moses, and are responsible for many standards that are also expressed in the Bible. For example, classic Roman moral law taught the ideals of monogamous marriage, honoring parents, honesty and much more. The essential and unique addition of New Covenant ethics is the sacrificial example of Yeshua. Acts 15 clearly addresses issues beyond basic morality, issues that would not have been readily perceived in the Roman world. These added requirements were also necessary for Jewish-Gentile fellowship. Acts 15 emphasizes reverence for blood (which is reverence for life), a standard that goes back to Noah. Meat strangled has far too much blood in it. Roman ethicists rejected fornication, but an exception was made for cult prostitution. Idolatry was indeed the way of life in the Roman world and 4 was part of good citizenship. In this command, the Gentile believer had to make a radical break with Roman culture.

Dr. Daniel Juster, founder and director of Tikkun International, has been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement since 1972 and currently resides in Jerusalem, Israel, from where he serves and supports the Messianic movement worldwide. Dan was the founding president and general secretary of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations for 9 years, the senior pastor of Beth Messiah congregation for 22 years, and a co-founder of the Messiah Bible Institute in several nations. Dr. Juster serves on the board of Towards Jerusalem Council II, provides oversight to 15 congregations in the USA as well as overseeing emissaries in Israel and the Former Soviet Union. Daniel has authored about 20 books on topics ranging from theology, Israel and the Jewish people, eschatology, discipleship, and leadership. Dr. Daniel Juster, founder and director of Tikkun International, has been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement since 1972 and currently resides in Jerusalem, Israel, from where he serves and supports the Messianic movement worldwide. Dan was the founding president and general secretary of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations for 9 years, the senior pastor of Beth Messiah congregation for 22 years, and a co-founder of the Messiah Bible Institute in several nations. Dr. Juster serves on the board of Towards Jerusalem Council II, provides oversight to 15 congregations in the USA as well as overseeing emissaries in Israel and the Former Soviet Union. Daniel has authored about 20 books on topics ranging from theology, Israel and the Jewish people, eschatology, discipleship, and leadership.

 

[BukiRob]

While people did meet on Shabbat, that was never a requirement in Torah, except on High Holy Days. Shabbat is a day of rest. Man’s tradition makes it a weekly day of meeting. One can be fully in line with Torah if they rest from their labors on the 7th day and go to service on the 1st.

That does beg the question: those that are so insistent on Shabbat observance, do they follow the requirements of Shabbat observance on feast days, irregardless of what day of the week they fall? After all, the scripture is clear that failing at one point is failure of the entire Torah.

Absolutely false. Sabbath has been the 6th day since creation!

 

[Kaon]

So, Israel was not saved from wrath when obedient? What salvation is it you are referring to?
Salvation from cruel bondage????
Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
Salvation from loss in battle with an enemy.......
2Ch 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Salvation from death itself......
La 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Show me one place where God told His people they could stop being obedient to His laws.

Are you seriously arguing that God would have us ignore everything He said to Moses? The doctrine that "Obedience to your Father is a bondage and burden is a dangerously deluded one. No parent expects you to be lawless when they save you. In fact, a wise child would try even harder to follow all of their parents rules once they are saved - even if the parents give them a grace period.

Again, show me one place where God, or the Word of God tells us we do not have to follow His commandments previously set up. If you cannot find this from God Himself, then I won't listen. God said if you love Him, you will keep His commandments. If a human contradicts Him, the human is a liar. I am not going against my Father because the doctrine of the century is to be disobedient children still expecting to reap the rewards of salvation. What is the difference between the Christian, and the world, then?

God is not to be mocked.

 

[Shimshon]

Again, show me one place where God, or the Word of God tells us we do not have to follow His commandments previously set up. If you cannot find this from God Himself, then won't listen.

Jeremiah 3:14-18 for starters. As reinforced by Messiah himself in John 4:20-21. And John 18:36 where Messiah states his kingdom is not of this world, but from another place. Stating that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would 'act' accordingly.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it’s from another place. Likewise, if Jesus’ kingdom was of this world, not only would his servants have fought to prevent his arrest, they would also observe all the earthly commandments made through Moses and enforced by the Jewish leaders. John 18:36


Don’t you think the kingdom of Israel as mediated through Moses’ seat is ‘of this world’? John 18:36

If Jesus were setting up the kingdom of Israel as mediated through Moses’ seat would not restoring the kingdom be fighting against the corrupt Jewish leaders and re-establishing the order of this world? You believe the function of the Spirit is to re-establish the order of this world? When the Spirit teaches us that as long as the first tabernacle is functioning the way into the Most Holy Place was blocked?

His kingdom is not of this world that we should observe the first covenants regulations for worship within the earthly sanctuary.

The Spirit teaches us that as long as the first tabernacle is functioning the way into the Most Holy Place is blocked.

The laws given Moses to govern the kingdom of Israel were not able to bring eternal redemption. They were external regulations applying to an earthly sanctuary UNTIL the time of the new covenant. Christ is the mediator of this new covenant because he went through into the Most Holy Place that is not made with human hands, nor a part of this creation, in order to bring eternal redemption to all he calls. Jesus has set us free from the sins committed under the first covenant and is mediator of a new order that does not deal with the earthly first tabernacle. Because the mediator of the new covenant sets those who are called free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:8-15


We too are told to have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place, through the blood of Jesus. Now we can draw near to God with a sincere heart having been cleansed from all sins relating to the law of Moses. Our tabernacle is the Most Holy Place not of this world, of another place, in heaven, not of this creation, nor made by human hands. This house of God is from above. As is the kingdom of God, as are we all. If we are ‘in him’, and he in us. A new and living way is opened up for us through the curtain that is his body. Hebrews 10:19-22

 

[Kaon]

Jeremiah 3:14-18 for starters. As reinforced by Messiah himself in John 4:20-21. And John 18:36 where Messiah states his kingdom is not of this world, but from another place. Stating that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would 'act' accordingly.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it’s from another place. Likewise, if Jesus’ kingdom was of this world, not only would his servants have fought to prevent his arrest, they would also observe all the earthly commandments made through Moses and enforced by the Jewish leaders. John 18:36


Don’t you think the kingdom of Israel as mediated through Moses’ seat is ‘of this world’? John 18:36

If Jesus were setting up the kingdom of Israel as mediated through Moses’ seat would not restoring the kingdom be fighting against the corrupt Jewish leaders and re-establishing the order of this world? You believe the function of the Spirit is to re-establish the order of this world? When the Spirit teaches us that as long as the first tabernacle is functioning the way into the Most Holy Place was blocked?

His kingdom is not of this world that we should observe the first covenants regulations for worship within the earthly sanctuary.

The Spirit teaches us that as long as the first tabernacle is functioning the way into the Most Holy Place is blocked.

The laws given Moses to govern the kingdom of Israel were not able to bring eternal redemption. They were external regulations applying to an earthly sanctuary UNTIL the time of the new covenant. Christ is the mediator of this new covenant because he went through into the Most Holy Place that is not made with human hands, nor a part of this creation, in order to bring eternal redemption to all he calls. Jesus has set us free from the sins committed under the first covenant and is mediator of a new order that does not deal with the earthly first tabernacle. Because the mediator of the new covenant sets those who are called free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:8-15


We too are told to have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place, through the blood of Jesus. Now we can draw near to God with a sincere heart having been cleansed from all sins relating to the law of Moses. Our tabernacle is the Most Holy Place not of this world, of another place, in heaven, not of this creation, nor made by human hands. This house of God is from above. As is the kingdom of God, as are we all. If we are ‘in him’, and he in us. A new and living way is opened up for us through the curtain that is his body. Hebrews 10:19-22

Jeremiah does not have God telling us that we can disobey His commandments now, in the past or future. In fact, he starts by calling us backsliding - a term you use if you are breaking a law.

How could you backside if you don't know the rules to willingly break them?



As for the rest of the verses, A MAN is telling us what they believe God said. Christ Never contradicts God. He said if you love God you will keep His commandments. Though I don't believe these men contradict God, I am not going to take anything they have to say as true since it directly contradicts God to say we don't have to follow His commandments.

I asked for when God said that we don' have to obey His commandments, not a man that lies, kills and steals.

 

[Shimshon]

Jeremiah does not have God telling us that we can disobey His commandments now, in the past or future. In fact, he starts by calling us backsliding - a term you use if you are breaking a law.

How could you backside if you don't know the rules to willingly break them?



As for the rest of the verses, A MAN is telling us what they believe God said. Christ Never contradicts God. He said if you love God you will keep His commandments. Though I don't believe these men contradict God, I am not going to take anything they have to say as true since it directly contradicts God to say we don't have to follow His commandments.

I asked for when God said that we don' have to obey His commandments, not a man that lies, kills and steals.

The LORD declared that when Israel returned to the land in great numbers, no longer following the stubbornness of their evil hearts, that the people of Israel will NO LONGER even think about the ark of the covenant. It will NEVER enter their minds, it will NOT be missed, and another will NEVER be made.

God said in those days they will not have to obey His commandments given on the mountain for worship.

Jeremiah 3
16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the LORD, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.
17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.
18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.​

Now look at the immediate connection between 'those days' and the Messiah. When Jesus comes to rule the land, in his days Israel will be restored and live in safety. When those days come, the LORD declares the people will NO LONGER speak about being rescued and saved 'up out of Egypt', but speak how God rescued and saved Israel from exile into the world.

Jeremiah 23
5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.
7“So then, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’
8but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”
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So we have Jeremiah stating, the LORD declared, that when Messiah comes to restore all things the ark of the covenant will never be remembered or remade, as well as the redemption out of Egypt entirely. No ark, and no memorial of being redeemed out of Egypt to receive the law.

When Messiah comes to restore all things he will NOT be restoring the earthly tabernacle because he has established a more perfect sanctuary. Hebrews 9, Hebrews 10.