Why do many Christians not understand this?

[BNR32FAN]

Rom 9:20

19 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?…

Don’t stop there brother Carl you stopped just one verse shy of him making his point.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

 

[John Mullally]

Because it is difficult to accept and live our lives knowing that we are going to hell unless God gives us a gift and we have absolutely no control over this decision!

This dilemma of considering if God did or did not give one an opportunity to receive God's gift (grace) is not presented anywhere in the New Testament. It came by theologians hundreds of years later.

 

[Jaxxi]

This dilemma of considering if God did or did not give one an opportunity to receive God's gift (grace) is not presented anywhere in the New Testament. It came by theologians hundreds of years later.

My Bible says it in so many words but ok. Suit yourself. That is fine.

 

[John Mullally]

My Bible says it in so many words but ok. Suit yourself. That is fine.

I included an excerpt from Peter's evangelistic sermon on the day of Pentecost - which is the New Testament pattern for an altar call. In this section we see that Peter implored the crowd repeatedly. In verse 38 he promised that if they would repent and be baptized they would receive "remission of their sins" and "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". How could Peter promise those things if some in the crowd were secretly exempt from from God's grace? Why do some oppose this style of New Testament evangelistic preaching?

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

 

[Soyeong]

A "person" does not heal, yet deity can heal, so can Deity do stuff on the Sabbath and is it really "work" for deity?

Indeed.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Don’t stop there brother Carl you stopped just one verse shy of him making his point.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Yes I agree...

Also these verses earlier in the chapter...

Rom 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes I agree...

Also these verses earlier in the chapter...

Rom 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Amen God didn’t need to give any reason for extending His grace to the Gentiles who weren’t seeking it. He has mercy on whom He desires.

“as He also says in Hosea: “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘ BELOVED.’ ” “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘ YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’ THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL MAY BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, ONLY THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.” And just as Isaiah foretold: “IF THE LORD OF ARMIES HAD NOT LEFT US DESCENDANTS, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE GOMORRAH.” What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:25-32‬ ‭NASB2020

 

[Carl Emerson]

It seems like everyone who is advocating eternal security just refuses to give any sort of interpretation or explanation of the scriptures I’m quoting.

Are you saying that Jesus will never say to a believer that they will be saved?

 

[Jaxxi]

I included an excerpt from Peter's evangelistic sermon on the day of Pentecost - which is the New Testament pattern for an altar call. In this section we see that Peter implored the crowd repeatedly. In verse 38 he promised that if they would repent and be baptized they would receive "remission of their sins" and "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". How could Peter promise those things if some in the crowd were secretly exempt from from God's grace? Why do some oppose this style of New Testament evangelistic preaching?

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—Ephesians 2:8
This wasn't added until later? That looks to me like we have no say in it. I mean we have to be baptized but baptism is not a guarantee that we are saved. It just makes it possible.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’Matthew 7:22
Those are Christians who are rejected when He replies " Depart from me, for I never knew you"

 

[John Mullally]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—Ephesians 2:8

Ephesians 2:8 does not say that God preordains some to Hell. Where does the Bible say that the gift of God (in Ephesians 2:8) is irresistible and cannot be rejected? The parable of the Wedding Feast in Matthew 22, which is a parable about salvation, says that the invitation went out to all and some excused themselves (i.e. rejected the invitation).

Stephen in Acts 7:51 says that a member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, can be resisted. If the Holy Spirit can be resisted, then the gift of God can be resisted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you saying that Jesus will never say to a believer that they will be saved?

No brother, what did I post that would make you think that?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

In fact, all Christians accept this reality. The original and true Christian Church, the one Church Jesus Christ founded, the Catholic Church, has consistently taught this truth for the past 2,000 years. Manmade Protestant churches, founded within the past few hundred years, teach that same truth, because they found it in the Bible, which was compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th Century, from its own writings. Therefore, nothing in Catholic teaching can contradict the Bible, and nothing in the Bible - accurately and authoritatively interpreted - can contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church. Protestants, desperate to legitimize their defection from the Church Jesus founded, dream up these false accusations about the Catholic Church. If they just took the time to read some accurate information about the teaching of the Catholic Church, the would realize how silly such accusations are.

Okay, Paul. Tell me where in the Bible is the teaching that Mary was immaculately conceived and the teaching that people go to purgatory. My problem with the Catholic church is the added tradition that they have come up with in addition to and alongside of the Bible. Is it true that they replaced the queen of heaven with Mary and the Roman gods and goddesses with the saints when the church became Rome's established church? I prefer taking the Bible on its own terms and assumptions rather than adding traditions alongside of it. That's one reason I'm Protestant.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No brother, what did I post that would make you think that?

Do you advocate eternal security?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you advocate eternal security?

No brother. There are many scriptures that refute eternal security. How could John 15:6 be true if eternal security is correct? If eternal security is true then no one could fail to remain in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. I have several more scriptures that support conditional salvation but I’d like to go one at a time so as to not make the discussion too overwhelming or difficult to follow.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No brother. There are many scriptures that refute eternal security. How could John 15:6 be true if eternal security is correct? If eternal security is true then no one could fail to remain in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. I have several more scriptures that support conditional salvation but I’d like to go one at a time so as to not make the discussion too overwhelming or difficult to follow.

So are you saying one can know that one will not fall away?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So are you saying one can know that one will not fall away?

I don’t understand the question brother. Did you word it correctly?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So are you saying one can know that one will not fall away?

I know that I will not fall away I can’t speak for anyone else. I know this because no matter what I will always trust in The Lord.

 

[Jaxxi]

Ephesians 2:8 does not say that God preordains some to Hell. Where does the Bible say that the gift of God (in Ephesians 2:8) is irresistible and cannot be rejected? The parable of the Wedding Feast in Matthew 22, which is a parable about salvation, says that the invitation went out to all and some excused themselves (i.e. rejected the invitation).

Stephen in Acts 7:51 says that a member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, can be resisted. If the Holy Spirit can be resisted, then the gift of God can be resisted.

What do you mean? Of course it can be rejected. That is not the issue. The topic was that there is nothing you can do to guarantee you are saved. Why would anyone who is saved choose hell over heaven? It comes down to people who choose earth and life on it go to hell and people who reject the ways of the world go to heaven right?

Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 22:8-13

Is that a parable? Weeping and gnashing of teeth? Thats real. That's hell.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I know that I will not fall away I can’t speak for anyone else. I know this because no matter what I will always trust in The Lord.

Right so you personally have assurance of salvation.

How did you get that?

 

[John Mullally]

What do you mean? Of course it can be rejected. That is not the issue.

I addressed this because my understanding on five-point Calvinist theology is everything is planned by God and man's free will is not a factor. As such God would only offer a gift (of grace/faith/salvation) to those who He chose before hand (i.e. the elect). The L in TULIP stands for Limited Atonement. The I stands for Irresistible Grace.

The topic was that there is nothing you can do to guarantee you are saved.

Well then, go back to my earlier post on Acts 2 where Peter makes the promise:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​