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Featured Why do Jews reject Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Al Masihi, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to point out that in these days Jews did not have "corrupted" Bible nor added or removed any Books , they simply apostate from faith because they wanted to and not because they were deceived by wrong books .
     
  2. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Again, a roundabout way of saying that Paul abolished the law.

    http://tinyurl.com/Proverbs-28-9
     
  3. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    NOBODY is so stupid to think that when he makes a statue from wood or stone that that statue suddenly becomes a god. But that statue represents for him his god, and therefore he bows down to it. That is the way idolatry is practised since the dawn of man, and that is how the Catholics now still practice it.

    https://tinyurl.com/no-statues
     
  4. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again thats merely your assertion not a fact.
     
  5. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, but Idolatry is to take a statue or image above God himself, Catholics don’t worship the actual statues. If Catholics are idolaters for bowing to a statue then Moses was also an idolater, furthermore the Temple has many statues and images in it.
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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  7. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    What is a fact is that Paul and Christianity abolish the law.

    “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"
    Matthew 5

    http://tinyurl.com/Proverbs-28-9
     
  8. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So Moses is an idolater.
     
  10. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus fulfilled the law as Matthew 5 says.
     
  11. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    No he is not.
     
  12. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17). So, first, we can see that Jesusdid not come to get rid the Law or make it invalid. Instead, he came to fulfill the true meaning and purpose of what the Law was about. Where the Law said do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery (Exodus 20:1-17), etc., Jesus obeyed the moral law perfectly. He never sinned (1 Peter 2:22). Where the Law talked about sacrifices and requirement of shedding of blood for forgiveness of sins, Jesus was the high priest (Hebrews 3:1; 4:14; 5:10; 6:20) who shed his own blood for the forgiveness of our sins (Hebrews 9:12, 14; 10:10, 19; 13:12, 20). Where the Law talked about the coming Messiah, Jesus was that Messiah, the one born of the virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18, 25), who is the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1), who was to be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18; Matthew 21:11), a priest (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5-6), who was crucified (Psalm 22:1, 11-18; Luke 23:33), and rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10; John 2:19-31; Matthew 28:6-7; Luke 24:6).

    Jesus said in John 5:39, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me." The Old Testament Scriptures were about Jesus who came to fulfill all the prophecies and requirements that the Old Testament law stipulated that was necessary for him to be the Messiah as well as to live that Law perfectly, something only he could do because he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9).

    Furthermore, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law in its representation of him via typology. Consider the following table that shows the relationship between Isaac and Jesus. The Old Testament Isaac was a type of Christ.

    "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:56-58).

    TOPIC ISAAC JESUS
    Only begotten Son Genesis 22:2 John 3:16
    Offered on a mountain, hill Genesis 22:2 Matt. 21:10
    Took donkey to place of sacrifice Genesis 22:3 Matt. 21:2-11
    Two men went with him. Genesis 22:3 Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33
    Three day journey. Jesus: three days in the grave Genesis 22:4 Luke 24:13-21
    Son carried wood on his back up hill Genesis 22:6 John 19:17
    God will provide for Himself the lamb Genesis 22:8 John 1:29
    Son was offered on the wood Genesis 22:9 Luke 23:33
    Ram in thicket of thorns Genesis 22:13 John 19:2
    The seed will be multiplied Genesis 22:17 John 1:12; Isaiah 53:10
    Abraham went down, Son didn't, "not mentioned." Genesis 22:19 Luke 23:46
    Servant gets bride for son Genesis 24:1-4 Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 21:2,9; 22:17
    The bride was a beautiful virgin Genesis 24:16 2 Cor. 11:2
    Servant offered ten gifts to bride Genesis 24:10 Rom. 6:23; 12; 1 Cor. 12:4-31

    https://carm.org/what-does-it-mean-that-jesus-fulfilled-the-law
     
  13. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He bowed down to a temple with images and statues as per your logic he is an idolater.
     
  14. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    No, he did not fulfil the law, he was a sinner who transgressed and changed the law.

    Christianity totally abolishes the law an replaces it with paganism and statue worship.

    http://tinyurl.com/statue-no-no
     
  15. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is that it? you have not refuted any argument I have put forth. You just keep making claims, yet you still can’t even prove the charge of statue worship without contradicting what the Tanach says.
     
  16. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Those statues were statues of angels, nobody thought they were statues of gods.

    Catholics have statues of JC of which they think he is God.

    The statues of the angels are made on the explicit commandment of God.

    The Christian statues are made against the explicit commandment of God:

    http://tinyurl.com/statue-no-no
     
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As for your charge that Jesus broke the Sabbath:

    A final instance in which Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath is seen in the grain field incident (Matthew 12:1-8). Many commentators automatically assume that the charge leveled against Jesus’ disciples by the Pharisees was a scripturally valid charge. However, when the disciples picked and consumed a few heads of grain from a neighbor’s field, they were doing that which was perfectly lawful (Deuteronomy 23:25). Working would have been a violation of the Sabbath law. If they had pulled out a sickle and begun harvesting the grain, they would have been violating the Sabbath law. However, they were picking strictly for the purpose of eating immediately—an action that was in complete harmony with Mosaic legislation (“but that which everyone must eat”—Exodus 12:16). A modern equivalent might be reaching for a box of cereal on the pantry shelf, pouring it in a bowl, retrieving the milk from the refrigerator, pouring it on the cereal, and eating it. The Pharisees’ charge that the disciples were doing something “not lawful” on the Sabbath was simply an erroneous charge (cf. Matthew 15:2).

    Jesus commenced to counter their accusation with masterful, penetrating logic, advancing successive rebuttals. Before He presented specific scriptural refutation of their charge, He first employed a rational device designated by logicians as argumentum ad hominem (literally “argument to the man”). He used the “circumstantial” form of this argument, which enabled Him to “point out a contrast between the opponent’s lifestyle and his expressed opinions, thereby suggesting that the opponent and his statements can be dismissed as hypocritical” (Baum, 1975, p. 470, emp. added). This variety of argumentation spotlights the opponent’s inconsistency, and “charges the adversary with being so prejudiced that his alleged reasons are mere rationalizations of conclusions dictated by self-interest” (Copi, 1972, p. 76).

    Observe carefully the technical sophistication inherent in Jesus’ strategy. He called attention to the case of David (vss. 3-4). When David was in exile, literally running for his life to escape the jealous, irrational rage of Saul, he and his companions arrived in Nob, tired and hungry (1 Samuel 21). He lied to the priest and conned him into giving to his traveling companions the showbread, or “bread of the Presence” (12 flat cakes arranged in two rows on the table within the Tabernacle [Exodus 25:23-30; Leviticus 24:5-6])—bread that legally was reserved only for the priests (Leviticus 24:8-9; cf. Exodus 29:31-34; Leviticus 8:31; 22:10ff.). David clearly violated the law. Did the Pharisees condemn him? Absolutely not! They revered David. They held him in high regard. In fact, nearly a thousand years after his passing, his tomb was still being tended (Acts 2:29; cf. 1 Kings 2:10; Nehemiah 3:16; Josephus, 1974a, 13.8.4; 16.7.1; Josephus, 1974b, 1.2.5). On the one hand, they condemned the disciples of Jesus, who were innocent, but on the other hand, they upheld and revered David, who was guilty. Their inconsistency betrayed both their insincerity as well as their ineligibility to bring a charge against the disciples.

    After exposing their hypocrisy and inconsistency, Jesus next turned to answer the charge pertaining to violating the Sabbath. He called their attention to the priests who worked in the Temple on the Sabbath (12:5; e.g., Numbers 28:9-10). The priests were “blameless”—not guilty—of violating the Sabbath law because their work was authorized to be performed on that day. As previously noted, the Sabbath law did not imply that everyone was to sit down and do nothing. The Law gave the right, even the obligation, to engage in several activities that did not constitute violation of the Sabbath regulation. Again, examples of such authorization included eating, Temple service, circumcision (John 7:22), tending to the basic care of animals (Exodus 23:4-5; Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Matthew 12:11; Luke 13:15), and extending kindness or assistance to the needy (Matthew 12:12; Luke 13:16; 14:1-6; John 5:5-9; 7:23). The divinely authorized Sabbath activity of the priests proved that the accusation of the Pharisees brought against Jesus’ disciples was false. [The term “profane” (vs. 5) is an example of the figure of speech known as metonymy of the adjunct in which “things are spoken of according to appearance, opinions formed respecting them, or the claims made for them” (Dungan, 1888, p. 295, emp. added). By this figure, Leah was said to be the “mother” of Joseph (Genesis 37:10), Joseph was said to be the “father” of Jesus (Luke 2:48; John 6:42), God’s preached message was said to be “foolishness” (1 Corinthians 1:21), and angels were said to be “men” (e.g., Genesis 18:16; 19:10). Priestly activity on the Sabbath gave the appearance of violation when, in fact, it was not. Coincidentally, Bullinger classified the allusion to “profane” in this verse as an instance of catachresis, or incongruity, stating that “it expresses what was true according to the mistaken notion of the Pharisees as to manual works performed on the Sabbath” (1898, p. 676, emp. added).]

    After pointing out the obvious legality of priestly effort expended on the Sabbath, Jesus stated: “But I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple” (12:6). The underlying Greek text actually has “something” instead of “One.” If priests could carry on Tabernacle/Temple service on the Sabbath, surely Jesus’ own disciples were authorized to engage in service in the presence of the Son of God! After all, service directed to the person of Jesus certainly is greater than the pre-Christianity Temple service conducted by Old Testament priests.

    For all practical purposes, the discussion was over. Jesus had disproved the claim of the Pharisees. But He did not stop there. He took His methodical confrontation to yet another level. He penetrated beneath the surface argument that the Pharisees had posited and focused on their hearts: “But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless” (12:7). In this verse, Jesus quoted from an Old Testament context (Hosea 6:6) in which the prophet of old struck a blow against the mere external, superficial, ritualistic observance of some laws, to the neglect of heartfelt, sincere, humble attention to other laws while treating people properly. The comparison is evident. The Pharisees who confronted Jesus’ disciples were not truly interested in obeying God’s law. They were masquerading under that pretense (cf. Matthew 15:1-9; 23:3). But their problem did not lie in an attitude of desiring careful compliance with God’s law. Rather, their zest for law keeping was hypocritical and unaccompanied by their own obedience and concern for others. They possessed critical hearts and were more concerned with scrutinizing and blasting people than with honest, genuine applications of God’s directives for the good of mankind.

    They had neutralized the true intent of divine regulations, making void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6). They had ignored and skipped over the significant laws that enjoined justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23). Consequently, though their attention to legal detail was laudable, their misapplication of it, as well as their own neglect and rejection of some aspects of it, made them inappropriate and unqualified promulgators of God’s laws. Indeed, they simply did not fathom the teaching of Hosea 6:6 (cf. Micah 6:6-8). “I will have mercy, and not sacrifice” is a Hebraism (cf. Matthew 9:13) [McGarvey, 1875, pp. 82-83]. God was not saying that He did not want sacrifices offered under the Old Testament economy (notice the use of “more” in Hosea 6:6). Rather, He was saying that He did not want sacrifice alone. He wanted mercy with sacrifice. Internal motive and attitude are just as important to God as the external compliance with specifics.

    Samuel addressed this same attitude shown by Saul: “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams” (1 Samuel 15:22). Samuel was not minimizing the essentiality of sacrifice as required by God. Rather, he was convicting Saul of the pretense of using one aspect of God’s requirements, i.e., alleged “sacrifice” of the best animals (1 Samuel 15:15), as a smoke screen for violating God’s instructions, i.e., failing to destroy all the animals (1 Samuel 15:3). If the Pharisees had understood these things, they would not have accused the disciples of breaking the law when the disciples, in fact, had not done so. They “would not have condemned the guiltless” (Matthew 12:7, emp. added).

    While the disciples were guilty of violating an injunction that the Pharisees had concocted (supposing the injunction to be a genuine implication of the Sabbath regulation), the disciples were not guilty of a violation of Sabbath law. The Pharisees’ propensity for enjoining their uninspired and erroneous interpretations of Sabbath law upon others was the direct result of cold, unmerciful hearts that found a kind of sadistic glee in binding burdens upon people for burdens’ sake rather than in encouraging people to obey God genuinely.

    Jesus placed closure on His exchange with the Pharisees on this occasion by asserting the accuracy of His handling of this entire affair: “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (vs. 8). In other words, Jesus affirmed His deity and, therefore, His credentials and authoritative credibility for making accurate application of the Law of Moses to the issue at hand. One can trust Jesus’ exegesis and application of Sabbath law; after all, He wrote it!

    Matthew 12 does not teach that Jesus broke the Sabbath or sanctions occasional violation of His laws under extenuating circumstances. His laws are never optional, relative, or situational—even though people often find God’s will inconvenient and difficult (e.g., John 6:60; Matthew 11:6; 15:12; 19:22; Mark 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:23). The truth of the matter is that if the heart is receptive to God’s will, His will is “easy” (Matthew 11:30), “not too hard” (Deuteronomy 30:11), nor “burdensome” (1 John 5:3). If, on the other hand, the heart resists His will and does not desire to conform to it, then God’s words are “offensive” (Matthew 15:12), “hard,” (John 6:60), “narrow” (Matthew 7:14), and like a hammer that breaks in pieces and grinds the resister into powder (Jeremiah 23:29; Matthew 21:44).

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=5155
     
  18. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    You're mixed up with the rooster of Moshe:

    A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


    My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
    Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


    1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

    2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

    3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

    4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

    5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

    6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

    7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

    9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

    11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

    12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
    (Lam. 3:2)

    13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

    14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

    15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

    16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

    17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

    18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

    19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
    As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

    20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

    21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

    22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

    23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

    24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

    25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

    26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

    27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

    28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

    30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

    31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

    32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

    33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

    34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

    35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

    36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

    37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

    39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

    42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

    There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

    In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

    * In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
    ** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'
     
  19. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And people’s bowed and directed their prayer to those statues of Angels. Also there’s no command against make statues of God, there’s only command against giving worship of statues.
     
  20. Eliyahu52

    Eliyahu52 Member

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    Try this one: "4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;"
    Ex 20

    http://tinyurl.com/statue-no-no
     
  21. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I’m not claiming there are countless prophecies of Jesus in the Tanach, some are and some aren’t.
     
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