Redwingfan9

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You're entitled, as they say, but it's not at all surprising that Christians should find him preferable to what the opposition has put up against him. Not at all.

This doesn't mean that they are prepping him for sainthood or about to name churches after him. He's plainly taken actions that have been beneficial to their cause, which is what most people want out of a political leader, and this is what I explained before.
Shall we vote Hitler over Stalin simply because the National Socialists persecuted the church less? I know this is an extreme example but if we're going to argue for choosing the lesser of two evils in this situation we must apply it to all situations. At the end of the day the lesser of two evils is still evil.
 
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Albion

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Shall we vote Hitler over Stalin simply because the National Socialists persecuted the church less? I know this is an extreme example but if we're going to argue for choosing the lesser of two evils in this situation we must apply it to all situations. At the end of the day the lesser of two evils is still evil.
I think you do have a point there, although it's strained, but the main problem with it is suggesting that the President is either Hitler or Stalin.

Bring it down to Earth and what he has done or not done, and we might have something to work with.
 
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Redwingfan9

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I think you do have a point there, although it's strained, but the main problem with it is suggesting that the President is either Hitler or Stalin.

Bring it down to Earth and what he has done or not done, and we might have something to work with.
I never said the choice was Hitler or Stalin, I simply demonstrated the absurdity of the lesser of two evils argument.

Trump is irredeemable from a Christian perspective. He's a serial liar who supports sodomites, massive deficit spending, massive government intervention in the economy, our outrageous prison industry and he has no love for God's law. That he's marginally pro-life isn't good enough.
 
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Albion

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I never said the choice was Hitler or Stalin, I simply demonstrated the absurdity of the lesser of two evils argument.
Yes, but the choice of example didn't really do that.

Trump is irredeemable from a Christian perspective. He's a serial liar who supports sodomites, massive deficit spending, massive government intervention in the economy, our outrageous prison industry and he has no love for God's law. That he's marginally pro-life isn't good enough.
That's an editorial, not a reply to the question of the thread.
 
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jgarden

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Trump as an alternative is solidifying simplky because of the increasingly obnoxious behaviour of those supporting the left or the attitude of some key players we see in hearings and the like. Of course if the attitude of most of American society is now to act like this I guess it is a moot point and will t effect the outcome. It seems the people have a choice of arrogance vs obnoxious. Either way an election should not be based on the emotions of the people. It is not right to take advantage of the ill.
So Evangelicals can justify their support of this President based on the "increasingly obnoxious behaviour " of those ungrateful opponents who have refused to shower this self-described "stable genius" with praise - in a month from now just how many will admit that they've been Trump supporters or invent "conspiracy theories" to rationalize their position?
 
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John Helpher

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Just because we don't want the bottom to fall out of the economy, doesn't mean we love money, or are greedy.

Jesus preached a new kind of economy, one where we work for love rather than for money and the things money can buy (Matthew 6:24).

However, I notice that you did not deny the claim that the economy is the main reason why so many Trump supporters do, indeed, support Trump. Think carefully about what I said.

You're willing to overlook all of Trump's immorality because you perceive him as a means of personal gain. Most people try not to think about it in those terms, but that really is what's happening. You over look his adultery, his hate-mongering, his support for neo-nazis, and that he brags about how filthy-lucre rich he is because he represents a monetary benefit to yourself. That's what, "He's good for the economy" means.
 
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John Helpher

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Abortion is the main reason why evangelicals support Trump.

That's one of the arguments they've used, but the whole argument comes across as shallow and self-righteous when they ignore all the other immorality Trump represents. What's the point of stopping abortion if you must sell your soul to do so?
 
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John Helpher

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It's a music video by Serj Tankian, it depicts how America sold its freedom away. The part of the video that reminded me of what you said was the priest drawing a money sign instead of the sign of the cross.

Thanks for clarifying that, Michael; much appreciated.
 
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John Helpher

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Really what is the difference both are liars and both parties are liars.

Hi d taylor. I think you're touching on an important point; so often we're encouraged to believe that we really only have 2 choices; Democrat or Repbulican. But, why do we keep believing this? We can choose anyone we want and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that politicians tend to bend toward what they believe will get them elected. That in itself is pretty poor provender but, it will take time to train our leaders back toward genuine character and integrity.
 
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jgarden

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Shall we vote Hitler over Stalin simply because the National Socialists persecuted the church less? I know this is an extreme example but if we're going to argue for choosing the lesser of two evils in this situation we must apply it to all situations. At the end of the day the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Ironically, Hitler and most of his inner circle, were reared to strict, religiously conservative homes - few considered themselves to be either atheists or agnostics!

As for Stalin, he received his formal education with the Russian Orthodox Church - he served as a choirboy and latter enrolled in the Spiritual Seminary in Tiflis to become a priest!

He became increasingly defiant, read politically "forbidden" books, attended revolutionary meetings, declared himself an atheist and parted ways with the Seminary in 1899!
 
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Kenny'sID

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Jesus preached a new kind of economy, one where we work for love rather than for money and the things money can buy (Matthew 6:24).

However, I notice that you did not deny the claim that the economy is the main reason why so many Trump supporters do, indeed, support Trump. Think carefully about what I said.

You're willing to overlook all of Trump's immorality because you perceive him as a means of personal gain. Most people try not to think about it in those terms, but that really is what's happening. You over look his adultery, his hate-mongering, his support for neo-nazis, and that he brags about how filthy-lucre rich he is because he represents a monetary benefit to yourself. That's what, "He's good for the economy" means.

One thing I'm certain of, some will not only see Trump as wrong no matter what he does, they will also find a way to be judgmental towards anyone who supports him. Even to the point of twisting something as simple as wanting a good economy into a terrible thing.

Think I'll wait for someone a bit less biased, more qualified, and someone I can
take seriousely to judge me...like God.
 
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timothyu

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in a month from now just how many will admit that they've been Trump supporters or invent "conspiracy theories" to rationalize their position?
I remember 8 years of people complaining because Obama kept government and religion separate yet if Trump looks around at the unknown at a funeral he is somehow combining the two.
 
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d taylor

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Hi d taylor. I think you're touching on an important point; so often we're encouraged to believe that we really only have 2 choices; Democrat or Repbulican. But, why do we keep believing this? We can choose anyone we want and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that politicians tend to bend toward what they believe will get them elected. That in itself is pretty poor provender but, it will take time to train our leaders back toward genuine character and integrity.

It really boils down to (at least i believe this) satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, if The Messiah would worship him.

And a few other places in the Bible tend point to this also. That the offer satan made, hits at, that satan possesses the kingdoms of the world (except Israel they are Gods)

So it does not seem like anything has changed satan still possesses all of the gentile kingdoms of the world (God does give satan rulers to rule with).

So if that is the case i would only think that governments natural inclination would be to lie, since they should reflect their possessor Satan.
 
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John Helpher

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To answer your question, probably because he's not attacking them.

Which is consistent with Trump's character. If you support him, he will support you. If you criticize him, he will attack you. That's not how justice or integrity works.

Hyperbole.

This is in response to my comment that Trump bragged he could commit murder in the street and get away with it. You're saying that is hyperbole (which, coincidentally, is one of Trump's favorite excuses for avoiding accountability for what he says). That you continue justifying this kind of hateful speech is evidence that you are not interested in Jesus' teachings. But, maybe you really did believe Trump's lies about hyperbole. Here's some evidence which demonstrates that he did not mean it as hyperbole. If you're sincere, you'll show it by acknowledging the evidence. If you're insincere, you'll come up with yet another excuse to dismiss the evidence.

"One lawyer for the president recently even suggested that Mr. Trump could shoot someone on Manhattan’s Fifth Avenue and not be investigated by local authorities, echoing a statement the president made during his 2016 campaign in which he said he wouldn’t lose any voters over such an action."
Trump Attorneys Assert Immunity From Broad Sweep of Law


In the recording, and I certainly don't approve of it but it happens

But, you do approve of it. You're defending him right now by saying, "it happens". Yes, rape also happens. Murder also happens. Your sense of respectability won't let you just come right out and say, "I don't care if he assaults women so I'm gonna support him anyway" but at the same time you really DO support him, so you make excuses to explain-away the immorality.

Trump brags about how some women will allow famous people to get away with such behavior.

Firstly, Don't forget his explanation for WHY they let you get away with it; because you're rich and famous. This is a classic example of a corrupt narcissist who thinks it's okay to grab random women because he's rich enough to not face any consequences.

Secondly, Notice that even you recognize these women did not give him permission. They did not ask for him or invite him. He grabbed them and "got away with it". You would bother to say he got away with something if he was right in doing that something in the first place.

Thirdly, even IF these women were okay with him randomly grabbing their genitals, it is completely inconsistent with Christian behavior to do this kind of thing and especially so to brag about it.

It was the scientists telling us not to wear masks.

Uh huh. The tobacco companies had plenty of scientists swearing up and down that there are no harmful side-effects from cigarettes. In the 20's and 30's the oil industry had dozens of scientists presenting data that lead gasoline was not harmful.

A sincere person will not need a scientist to state the obvious. A sincere person will simply look at other areas of life where masks are worn. Why do construction workers wear masks? To prevent particulate from entering the respiratory system. Why do painters wear masks? To prevent even smaller particulate from entering the respiratory system? Why do riot police wear masks? To prevent even smaller particulate from entering the respiratory system. Why do virologists wear masks? To prevent even smaller particulate from entering the respiratory system.

It is a scientific fact that masks prevent dangerous particulate of all kinds from entering the respiratory system. If there were any scientists telling you that you don't need to wear a mask to prevent the spread of small particulate, those scientists were lying for a political/financial reason.

That you don't want to see this suggests you are part of the problem.

Even Anthony Fauci, the purported scientific expert, told us publicly that it was nothing to worry about.

Fauci, Trump, the WHO, and the CDC all changed their positions dramatically based on the politics. Trump is still doing that even now. We have recorded, on-the-record evidence that he knew the virus was much more dangerous than the flu and that it was airborne, yet he told the public the exact opposite. He even suggested, at one point, that people who felt sick could still go to work! He said the virus would magically (yes, he used that actual word) disappear and that it would miraculously disappear.

That last bit about the miraculous makes it a different issue altogether because he claims to be a Christian leader. Making a prediction that a virus will miraculously disappear (and miracles can only come from God), and then having that prediction fail demonstrates that he is a false prophet. He said God would perform a miracle by April. That miracle did not happen. He is false.
 
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jgarden

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I remember 8 years of people complaining because Obama kept government and religion separate yet if Trump looks around at the unknown at a funeral he is somehow combining the two.
Given that Europe had repeatedly engaged in tearing itself apart for centuries in "religious" wars, they were determined that history not repeat itself in their corner of the New World!

Presumably its asking too much of this President and his supporters that by stacking the Supreme Court with 6 Roman Catholic Justices and a 7th reared as Catholic, they are contributing to the public's perception that just one religious group is now in a position to influence the laws of the nation for decades!
 
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timothyu

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Presumably its asking too much of this President and his supporters that by stacking the Supreme Court with 6 Roman Catholic Justices and a 7th reared as Catholic, they are contributing to the public's perception that just one religious group is now in a position to influence the laws of the nation for decades!
How do you explain that they also demanded the outcome of Rope vs Wade in the first place in order to get the Catholic vote which had been traditionally democratic. Sour grapes? Judges are supposed to be neutral and applying only the letter of the law as intended yet politicians and their minions that are not held to such a control seem to think the SC should think and act like them. The whole reason for restricting the SC is so they can deal with the rabble in government and the nation without playing their game..
 
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Kenny'sID

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That you continue justifying this kind of hateful speech is evidence that you are not interested in Jesus' teachings.

No one is justifying any such thing.

Please stop using Jesus in this way. You are using him in attempt to win a political argument, and far as I'm concerned that's just wrong.

It should be obvious, we simply dont use our lord and savior for such things.
 
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creslaw

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I do not understand why some people have difficulty separating personality from policy. Trump & Biden are no worse & no better than each other in God's sight. So trying to decide who has the more Christian character seems a pointless exercise. We can, however, decide which policies are better for the country ... and on that basis this evangelical hopes Trump wins.
 
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