Why do dispensationalists chop up the bible into different ages?

[Biblewriter]

I have been away from this forum for a while. But I see that the old lie that Dispensationalism has no basis in church history has come up again in this thread.

Actually, the central tenants of Dispensationalism were taught, and very clearly taught, in the oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) AND in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture. And they continued to be taught at least up till the fifth century. This was demonstrated at length in my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which is available at amazon.com.

In the book, I demonstrated by extensive quotations that, among other things, the earliest surviving Christian writers taught that Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally, that there was an unfulfilled prophetic program for the Jews, that the Jews would be brought back to their homeland, that, after being brought back, they would be converted, that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future, and that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation.

 

[nolidad]

so if lordship salvation is another gospel? What is the true gospel? Lets start there.

Well before I answer fully, I need your definition of "Lordship Salvation" That has many meanings.

But the only true gospel that saves is placing ones full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins and justification! Period!

 

[nolidad]

Hi Created:

Thank you for starting this topic, even if there is no Scriptural support for anything. You wrote:


Thank you for pointing out one flaw in Dispy thinking that dispensations and ages are even similar, because they are not. Anyone going on about the "Age of Grace" is embarrassing himself, because no such thing exists anywhere in the Bible. Let's look at the true definition of "dispensation" used in Ephesians 3:2 and these readers can draw their own conclusions:


You can see the term "dispensation" used in the phrase "dispensation of the grace of God" that concerns a "household" that we know as the "Body of Christ." Here is Vine's definition:

Dispensation

[ 1,,G3622, oikonomia ]
primarily signifies the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke 16:2-Luke 16:4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it
(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");
(b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Colossians 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Ephesians 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;....".

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."

Dispensation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Israel of the flesh represents a "dispensation" like the Kingdom Church saved by the Gospel of the Kingdom and our Mystery Body of Christ Church saved by the Gospel of the Grace of God. We are living inside the same "evil age" (Gal. 1:4) that started in Genesis 1:2 when "darkness" (same darkness as Eph. 6:12, powers of "darkness"). As the definition says, "Note: A "dispensation" is NOT A PERIOD OR EPOCH" (or time, or age, or any such thing)...


And yet, Moses, Joshua, and David are all under Mosaic Law like the sons of Israel.


What are you going on about regarding a "way of salvation" before a gospel message was ever preached in the New Testament times? Everyone in the OT (save two) went to Sheol (#7585) to await their Savior. Christ spent three days in Sheol on the Paradise side where Lazarus went in Luke 16:19-31. The "forgiveness of sins" for eternal life is a New Testament concept connected to the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38) and the Gospel of the Grace of God (Eph. 1:7, Col. 1:18-20) with no precedent in the OT.


No. Typing out 10,000 words with zero Scriptural support makes a case for nothing, but represents effort thrown after folly. We are saved by God's grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8-10) by obeying the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24), which is Gospel #2 in my OP here.


Holy... Paul manages to write all of his 13 Epistles to the Gentiles without using the term "repent" (#3340; repented used once in 2Cor. 12:21) even once (NASB). Obeying our gospel means "hearing" (Rom. 10:17) and believing (Eph. 1:13-14) the message of truth (1Cor. 15:1-5). Period. Zero works.


Please forgive, but going on and on about what is "NOT" helps nobody understand the truth of the gospel and God's salvation by grace through faith APART from works. There is no comparison between the people living in the OT times and in the NT times after Christ died for sins and our gospel went into the world. Try to find the term "gospel" in the OT to realize you will come up empty.

Blessings,

Terral

You should realize that both covenant theology and dispensational theology are coined terms by those who adhere to each view of hermeneitics and understanding Scripture.

Dispensational theology is very simple really.

It relies on the literal, historical, grammatical translation of Scripture! This means while there may be many applications of a particular verse- there is only one interpretation!

Dispensational theology also recognizes that since the creation God has governed man in different ways. Every one since Adam have been saved by grace through faith! But that expression of faith has been different. Adam believed differently form Noah who believed different from Abraham who believed different from MOses who believed different from Paul!

dispoensational theology also recognizes that God has made 7 specific covenants either with mankind or Israel and these werew the governing methodology God used for that particular age or dispensation.
2 of those covenants were conditional and no longer in effect, and 5 are uncondtional and still in effect(though they do have conditional provisions in them , those provisions may or may not still be enforced but the covenant itself is still intact).

When reading the Bible with these basic truths in miond- it protects the believer from some glaring errors!

Two of the biggest are eternal secutity and the nature of the nation of Israel!

 

[createdtoworship]

I have been away from this forum for a while. But I see that the old lie that Dispensationalism has no basis in church history has come up again in this thread.

Actually, the central tenants of Dispensationalism were taught, and very clearly taught, in the oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) AND in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture. And they continued to be taught at least up till the fifth century. This was demonstrated at length in my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which is available at amazon.com.

In the book, I demonstrated by extensive quotations that, among other things, the earliest surviving Christian writers taught that Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally, that there was an unfulfilled prophetic program for the Jews, that the Jews would be brought back to their homeland, that, after being brought back, they would be converted, that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future, and that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation.

You should make a kindle version.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well before I answer fully, I need your definition of "Lordship Salvation" That has many meanings.

But the only true gospel that saves is placing ones full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sins and justification! Period!

It is a common misconception we are saved by faith in Christ. No, no, no....we are saved when we repent and turn to Christ to save us. Making Him Lord. Hence Lordship salvation. Satan believes in Christ, that does not make him saved. It is a free gift, but God literally allows us the grace to turn from sin, repent of idolatry and follow Him.

 

[Biblewriter]

You should make a kindle version.

As I am not the publisher, I have no control over that. But I have been told a kindle version is planned.

 

[createdtoworship]

As I am not the publisher, I have no control over that. But I have been told a kindle version is planned.

I recommend starting it out as a kindle unlimited free version, then go up to 99 cents, then raise price slowly. I don't know but I think that would get it some positive reviews first. Then once you have a few hundred reviews, you can raise the price to normal book price.

 

[Biblewriter]

I recommend starting it out as a kindle unlimited free version, then go up to 99 cents, then raise price slowly. I don't know but I think that would get it some positive reviews first. Then once you have a few hundred reviews, you can raise the price to normal book price.

As I said, I have no control over that. I signed all rights over to the publisher.

 

[createdtoworship]

As I said, I have no control over that. I signed all rights over to the publisher.

oh, too bad. I will try not to do that if I ever finish some books I am working on. Thanks for the warning.

 

[nolidad]

It is a common misconception we are saved by faith in Christ. No, no, no....we are saved when we repent and turn to Christ to save us. Making Him Lord. Hence Lordship salvation. Satan believes in Christ, that does not make him saved. It is a free gift, but God literally allows us the grace to turn from sin, repent of idolatry and follow Him.

Well I will take the Bibles formula for salvation over any mans'

ROMANS 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is turning to Christ. We don't make Jesus Lord- He already is Lord! We simply acknowledge that truth after we are saved!

Satans belief is not soteriological belief ansd the demons are not granted repentance!

Yes God does allow us the grace to turn from self to Jesus! I fully agree!

 

[createdtoworship]

Well I will take the Bibles formula for salvation over any mans'

ROMANS 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is turning to Christ. We don't make Jesus Lord- He already is Lord! We simply acknowledge that truth after we are saved!

Satans belief is not soteriological belief ansd the demons are not granted repentance!

Yes God does allow us the grace to turn from self to Jesus! I fully agree!

so say satan did TRUST in christ to save, would He be saved? I think james is saying no. After all if a tree does not bear fruit what happens to it? It's chopped down and burned the Bible says. We have assurance of salvation by grace, but ultimately God is control of our lives and we can't do anything we want and still remain christian, there has to be some semblance of repenting of sin.

 

[nolidad]

so say satan did TRUST in christ to save, would He be saved? I think james is saying no. After all if a tree does not bear fruit what happens to it? It's chopped down and burned the Bible says. We have assurance of salvation by grace, but ultimately God is control of our lives and we can't do anything we want and still remain christian, there has to be some semblance of repenting of sin.

Not in the least.

The lake of fire that is everlasting punishment was created for Satan and his rebel angels. Men worked their wayinto hell.

As for the tree- you misunderstand what is being said!

John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

The branches not bearing fruit here are IN Christ! They are saved. So what does the vinesmen do? The word taketh away is "airo"

to raise up, elevate, lift up

1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
   
   
2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
   

Before the era of grape arbors and stringing up vines- people had the branches run the ground. Vines that didn't bear fruit, they lifted off the ground (by rocks or stones or clay bricks) so they would bear fruit!

Now let us look at teh other vines.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

These are unsaved- they do not abide in christ! They are weeds in the garden and are burned!

but ultimately God is control of our lives and we can't do anything we want and still remain christian, there has to be some semblance of repenting of sin.

Well a true Christian is not perfect. Remember the grace that saves us, makes us a new Creature, gives us a new heart etc.etc.

But if a Person is a Christian and is saved- sin is not the issue! Even if they go into a season of backsliding- those sins were already paid for! We all need to remember that for the children of God- sin will break our fellowship with our Father, butr it will never break our relationship with out Father! We are still His children- Howbeit disobedient children

People do not go to hell because they sin. People go to hell because they reject the salvation Jesus earned for them!

 

[createdtoworship]

Not in the least.

The lake of fire that is everlasting punishment was created for Satan and his rebel angels. Men worked their wayinto hell.

As for the tree- you misunderstand what is being said!

John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

The branches not bearing fruit here are IN Christ! They are saved. So what does the vinesmen do? The word taketh away is "airo"

to raise up, elevate, lift up

1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
   
   
2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

Before the era of grape arbors and stringing up vines- people had the branches run the ground. Vines that didn't bear fruit, they lifted off the ground (by rocks or stones or clay bricks) so they would bear fruit!

Now let us look at teh other vines.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

These are unsaved- they do not abide in christ! They are weeds in the garden and are burned!



Well a true Christian is not perfect. Remember the grace that saves us, makes us a new Creature, gives us a new heart etc.etc.

But if a Person is a Christian and is saved- sin is not the issue! Even if they go into a season of backsliding- those sins were already paid for! We all need to remember that for the children of God- sin will break our fellowship with our Father, butr it will never break our relationship with out Father! We are still His children- Howbeit disobedient children

People do not go to hell because they sin. People go to hell because they reject the salvation Jesus earned for them!

sir he explains the meaning of the parable right afterword. It is not open to debate. "angels with gather those who don't bear fruit and throw into the fire" John 15:6

 

[nolidad]

sir he explains the meaning of the parable right afterword. It is not open to debate. "angels with gather those who don't bear fruit and throw into the fire" John 15:6

Yes he does. The branches that are not in him! are thrown in the fire.

But the branches in Him and aren't bearing fruit- He lifts up! Not thrown in the fire.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

This verse is its own thought.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes he does. The branches that are not in him! are thrown in the fire.

But the branches in Him and aren't bearing fruit- He lifts up! Not thrown in the fire.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

This verse is its own thought.

don't get caught up on abiding, if you do a search of what it means to abide, it's just simple obedience, so technically you can swap that word and put in obedience and do no damage to the text. So yes if a tree does not bear fruit what happens to it? It's chopped down and burned the Bible says. It is very very obvious if one simply read the text. Take away all your bias of OSAS and calvinism, and just read what the scriptures say without a filter lense of calvinism behind it. Just read the actual text and what is actually said. It will revolutionize your walk. I promise you.

 

[createdtoworship]

duplicate

 

[createdtoworship]

You're right that salvation is not by faith alone. That is clear from the plain reading of the new testament. But as you pointed out, God made a covenant with Adam, and with Noah, and so on. To call those periods dispensations is only a use of a term. But there are any number of beliefs among dispensasionalists that aren't supported by Christian history.

I think the Dispensationalists use eisegesis to chop scripture and rearrange it to fit their theory. They have no connection to historic Christianity.

No.

(CLV) Gn 2:17
But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you must not eat from it; for on the day you eat from it, to die you shall be dying

They rebelled against the father's instruction; and they died.

The message has been the same from the beginning.

lets get this discussion started again with a small quote from a dispensational book:

"
We must learn to

"Rightly Divide the Word of Truth."
While the "Word of Truth" is written FOR all classes of people, and FOR our learning, it is not addressed to all peoples in general, but part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part to the GENTILES, and part to the CHURCH. These three constitute the THREE CLASSES, into which humanity is divided. 1 Cor. 10:32. It follows therefore that while the whole Bible was written for the INSTRUCTION of the Church, it is not all written ABOUT the Church. The Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament. It was hid from the Old Testament prophets, and was a "Mystery" first revealed to Paul, and disclosed by him in Eph. 3:1-10. The Old Testament is mostly taken up with the history of one nation, that of Israel. In the first five chapters of Genesis we are given the history of Creation, and 1700 years of human history. In the next four chapters we are given the account of the Flood. The tenth and eleventh chapters give the account of 400 more years of human history, and then God singles out one man, Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3), and from there on the whole of the Old Testament centres around the Jewish Race. When we take the Old Testament promises and apply them to the Church we rob the Jew of that which is exclusively his. For illustration, the prophecy of Isaiah is largely applied to the Church, whereas the very first verse declares that it is-"Concerning JUDAH and JERUSALEM." Isa. 1:1. In the New Testament the Epistles of Hebrews and James are Jewish. The Epistle of James is addressed, not to the Church, but to the "TWELVE TRIBES scattered abroad." James 1:1. Therefore the "Prayer of Faith" (James 5:13-16) for the sick is not primarily a promise to the Church but to Israel, though doubtless it will be answered for all who comply with the conditions. In the Epistle to the Hebrews many Christians stumble at the words "fall away" (Heb. 6:4-6), and "if we sin wilfully." Heb. 10:26. But these words do not apply to Christians. They were spoken to apostate Jewish professors of Christianity who had never been born again, and who, if they did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, practically crucified Him again, and were as bad as their brethren who did crucify Him. I disagree with that section so I striked it. But you can still read it.

Some books are general. As for instance the Epistle to the Romans. No one would apply Romans 8th to the Jews, or Romans 11th to the Church, for in it Paul speaks not only to Israel but also to the Gentiles. Rom. 11:11-13. ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction, (2 Tim. 3:16), and what happened to Israel was written for our ENSAMPLE and ADMONITION, (1 Cor. 10:11), but we must not apply to the Church what does not belong to it. We see then that to misapply scripture is to not "Rightly Divide the Word" and tends to confusion and error.

In "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth," we must also distinguish the work of Christ. We are told in the Scriptures that He is a "Prophet," "Priest" and "King." But He does not hold those offices conjointly but successively. From the Fall in Eden to the Cross, He was a "Prophet." He is now a "High Priest" and when He comes again He will be a "King." From Eden to the Cross there was an "Altar," from the Cross to the Crown there is a "Table" (the Lord's Table), and from the Crown to Christ's surrender of the Kingdom there is a "Throne." See the chart on "The Greater Life and Work of Christ."

In Heb. 1:1, we read-God hath spoken "at SUNDRY TIMES," as well as "in DIVERS MANNERS," and if we are to understand what He has spoken, we must not only distinguish between the class of people He has spoken to, as the Jews, Gentiles or the Church, but we must also note the "SUNDRY TIMES" at which He spoke, and the "DIVERS MANNERS."We must also distinguish between the "TIME PAST" when He spoke by the Prophets, and these "LAST DAYS" in which He' hath spoken to us by His SON. Heb. 1:1-2. We must not forget the "DIVINE CONJUNCTIONS" and "DIVINE DISJUNCTIONS" of the Word of God. We must not separate what God has joined, as the "Word of God" and the "Spirit of God," "Christ and Salvation," "Faith and Works." Neither must we join what God has separated, as "Heaven and Hell," "Baptism and Regeneration," "Natural Heredity" and "Spiritual Heredity," "Standing and State," "the Church and the Kingdom."

We must also distinguish between the "TIMES" and "SEASONS" of the Scriptures. Daniel said of God-"He changeth the 'TIMES' and the 'SEASONS'," (Dan. 2:21), and Jesus said to His Disciples-"It is not for you to know the 'TIMES' or the 'SEASONS'." Acts 1:7. Job testified that the "TIMES are not hidden from the Almighty." Job 24: 1. And of the Children of Issachar it was said that they had "understanding of the TIMES." 1 Chron. 12:-32. By the "SEASONS" we are to understand the climatic changes of the earth due to the movements and changing characteristics of the Sun, Moon and Stars, which God ordained to regulate the "Seasons." Gen. 1: 14. As to the "TIMES" we have them designated as the "TIMES OF IGNORANCE," (Acts 17:30); the "TIMES OF THE GENTILES," (Luke 21:24); the "TIMES OF REFRESHING," (Acts 3:19); the "TIMES OF RESTITUTION," (Acts 3:21); and the "Dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES." Eph. 1:10. See Chart of "The Times and Seasons."

From the statement, "The Times of the GENTILES," we see that when the "Gentiles" are in power the "Jews" are not. And as the "Times of the GENTILES" is still running, the Church cannot be in this Dispensation a governing or Kingdom power."

above from clarence larkin's book found free online:
Chapter 5. Rightly Dividing the Word - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

@HTacianas @Dave L @HARK!

 

[nolidad]

don't get caught up on abiding, if you do a search of what it means to abide, it's just simple obedience, so technically you can swap that word and put in obedience and do no damage to the text. So yes if a tree does not bear fruit what happens to it? It's chopped down and burned the Bible says. It is very very obvious if one simply read the text. Take away all your bias of OSAS and calvinism, and just read what the scriptures say without a filter lense of calvinism behind it. Just read the actual text and what is actually said. It will revolutionize your walk. I promise you.

No I am looking at take away which means to lift up! If obedience is the key, then are you saying that when a Christian disobeys- they are no longer abiding in Christ and lost?

You seem to overlook Jesus talks about two branches that are not bearinig fruit. One is one who is abiding in HIm which gets lifted up to bear fruit!

The other is a branch that is not abiding in Him andf is hewed down. Let us post hte verse so all can see: JOHN

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Verse 2 are branches that abide inHim- verse 6 is a branch that does not abide!

Even less than perfect believers abide in Christ- sin is not the issue- but faith in the work of Christ!

See I read the verse without a Calvinistic lens but a biblical lens!

All believers abide in Christ! Sin does not send a person to hell nor does it takes away a believers salvation!

I can list all the verses that show you OSAS is biblical and that a works salvation is another gospel!

But reread the verses again and then do a study of the times Jesus lived in to understand!

Jesus spoke in the culture and methods of HIs day and did not speak 21st century English!

Vintners grew grapes on the ground and when a branch did not bear friut- they lifted it up to bear fruit!

I am amused immensely- In another thread I am battling against universalism and told my concept of God is tyrannical- and here you oppose eternal secutrity and imply my view of God is too merciful!

 

[HARK!]

While the "Word of Truth" is written FOR all classes of people, and FOR our learning, it is not addressed to all peoples in general, but part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part to the GENTILES, and part to the CHURCH. These three constitute the THREE CLASSES, into which humanity is divided. 1 Cor. 10:32.

Nonsense.

I stopped reading after that.

(CLV) Hb 8:8
For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo~! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,

According to Yahshua Judah and Israel are the two classes that are in covenant. Then there are the rebels.

 

[Guojing]

I have been away from this forum for a while. But I see that the old lie that Dispensationalism has no basis in church history has come up again in this thread.

Actually, the central tenants of Dispensationalism were taught, and very clearly taught, in the oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) AND in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture. And they continued to be taught at least up till the fifth century. This was demonstrated at length in my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which is available at amazon.com.

In the book, I demonstrated by extensive quotations that, among other things, the earliest surviving Christian writers taught that Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally, that there was an unfulfilled prophetic program for the Jews, that the Jews would be brought back to their homeland, that, after being brought back, they would be converted, that Daniel's seventieth week remained to be fulfilled in the future, and that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation.

Amen, Paul himself was the first to use the term dispensation Ephesians 3:2