Why do Christians worship the Son instead of the Father?

[Goatee]

I myself am a father, a son, and a brother, all in one person! This is how i sometimes look at it myself.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I think it has something to do with dimensions. If, instead of the word 'Trinity' I used the word 'hyper-God' would that make more sense?

Not really.

Think of a cube. The cube has width, length and depth. Now think of a God - the God has Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Sure. I like another analogy better: water. It can come in the form of vapor, ice or liquid.
The thing is though, that the 3 trinity parts are treated constantly as 3 seperate and independend entities.

 

[Uber Genius]

The Messiah Yehowshuwa (True Hebrew name) said the greatest commandment is to Love Yehowah his Father with all our hearts mind and soul. Many people now say that Jesus is God.

What is the evidence for the two powers in heaven (AKA Two YHWYs) from the Old Testament and intertestimental times?
IN Jesus's day through to the early second century the Jewish scholars had the concept of two powers in heaven.

 

[Uber Genius]

No, the point of this thread is the OP's heretical denial of the deity of Christ, not that you disagree with word "love".

Think the point of an "Apologetics" forum is to give a defense for one's Christian truth claims.

Thus reserving the ad hominem, "Heretic," for the other forums.

 

[gadar perets]

What is the evidence for the two powers in heaven (AKA Two YHWYs) from the Old Testament and intertestimental times?
IN Jesus's day through to the early second century the Jewish scholars had the concept of two powers in heaven.

There are not two YHWHs. Scripture makes that abundantly clear.

1. "Now therefore, O YHWH our Mighty One, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH Elohim, even thou only" (II Kings 19:19 )

2. "Thou, even thou art YHWH alone; . . ." ( Nehemiah 9:6 )

3. "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is YHWH, art the most high over all the earth" ( Psalm 83:18 )

4. " . . .that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art YHWH, even thou only" (Isaiah 37:20 )

5. "I am YHWH, and there is none else . . ." (Isaiah 45:5 )

6. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else" ( Isaiah 45:6 )

7. "For thus saith YHWH that created the heavens; . . .I am YHWH; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18 )

8. "And YHWH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHWH, and His name one" ( Zechariah 14:9 )

9. "Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Mighty One is one YHWH" ( Deuteronomy 6:4 )
​

If one comes across a verse that seems to mention two YHWHs, it needs to be examined closely with these verses in mind. For example, Genesis 19:24 reads;

Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;
​

Two YHWHs? Not any more than there are two Solomons in 1 Kings 8:1;

Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of YHWH out of the city of David, which is Zion.​

They are both simply Hebrew idioms.

 

[Radagast]

Sure. I like another analogy better: water. It can come in the form of vapor, ice or liquid.

It's not a great analogy, actually, since it kind of reflects the non-Trinitarian concept of modalism.

 

[Radagast]

Think the point of an "Apologetics" forum is to give a defense for one's Christian truth claims.

Thus reserving the ad hominem, "Heretic," for the other forums.

This thread was moved to the "Apologetics" forum after those statements were made.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It's not a great analogy, actually, since it kind of reflects the non-Trinitarian concept of modalism.

Actually, it works quite well at the triple-point.

 

[Uber Genius]

Clarifying here: when a Christian says "Jesus is the Son of God" and acknowledge His divinity, that's different than saying "Jesus is the Father"-- He's not the Father. He's the Son. They are two different divine persons in one God.

And to address your title question: majority of Christians to pray to the Father, and worship the Father (in the name of the Son).

Wow, false!

God is three persons!

And the majority of Christians worship all three.

And to refuse to worship any of the persons is to misunderstand the nature of the God of the Bible.

Since the Nicene Creed this has been settled.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Wow, false!

God is three persons!

And the majority of Christians worship all three.

And to refuse to worship any of the persons is to misunderstand the nature of the God of the Bible.

Since the Nicene Creed this has been settled.

Of course. I just didn't talk about the Holy Spirit in my previous post because the question was focused on the Father and Son.

 

[Uber Genius]

Of course. I just didn't talk about the Holy Spirit in my previous post because the question was focused on the Father and Son.

Fair enough.

But I wonder if we have a univocal meaning when talking about God, and the three persons of the Trinity.

I have engaged Mormons for over 25 years on this subject and they find One God revealed in three persons (orthodox Theology) to be false.

I have read both the, Book of Mormon and The Pearl of Great Price. Below is an excerp of the view of the Trinity by Mormons, including quotes from Joseph Smith. If true then this is not the historic Christian understanding, and you use of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, only sounds similar but bares no resemblance to the Christian concept of the Trinity.

"These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe” (552). Joseph Smith ridiculed the Trinity: “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372). Ironically, Smith’s statement here, spoken in an 1844 sermon, flatly contradicts what he said in his 1830 “translation” of the Book of Mormon: “Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God” (Alma 11:44). Mormons also claim that the doctrine of the Trinity originated from Christianity in its “Great Apostasy,” as a false doctrine that was not faithful to the Bible. In actuality, the doctrine of the Trinity is a biblically-based doctrine that originated from the early church’s faithful reflection on Scripture." (The Mormon View of the Trinity:The Bottom-Line Guide to Mormonism, Part 4. By: Robert M. Bowman Jr.
August 26, 2013)

I don't want to put words in your mouth however. If you don't share the Mormon view of the Godhead then by all means help us understand where you reject those views.

 

[RaymondG]

Fair enough.

But I wonder if we have a univocal meaning when talking about God, and the three persons of the Trinity.

I have engaged Mormons for over 25 years on this subject and they find One God revealed in three persons (orthodox Theology) to be false.

I have read both the, Book of Mormon and The Pearl of Great Price. Below is an excerp of the view of the Trinity by Mormons, including quotes from Joseph Smith. If true then this is not the historic Christian understanding, and you use of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, only sounds similar but bares no resemblance to the Christian concept of the Trinity.

"These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe” (552). Joseph Smith ridiculed the Trinity: “Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372). Ironically, Smith’s statement here, spoken in an 1844 sermon, flatly contradicts what he said in his 1830 “translation” of the Book of Mormon: “Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God” (Alma 11:44). Mormons also claim that the doctrine of the Trinity originated from Christianity in its “Great Apostasy,” as a false doctrine that was not faithful to the Bible. In actuality, the doctrine of the Trinity is a biblically-based doctrine that originated from the early church’s faithful reflection on Scripture." (The Mormon View of the Trinity:The Bottom-Line Guide to Mormonism, Part 4. By: Robert M. Bowman Jr.
August 26, 2013)

I don't want to put words in your mouth however. If you don't share the Mormon view of the Godhead then by all means help us understand where you reject those views.

Does any of this have any bearing on ones salvation....Or is it just another dividing mechanism ?

I have no opinion on which view is right or wrong....Would this be an issue for me? Should i be reviewing all sides, picking one and then standing on it to ensure Im in the right group before His return?

 

[Uber Genius]

Does any of this have any bearing on ones salvation....Or is it just another dividing mechanism ?

I have no opinion on which view is right or wrong....Would this be an issue for me? Should i be reviewing all sides, picking one and then standing on it to ensure Im in the right group before His return?

Hmm?

If I say "God" but I believe in a Hindu God where there are 300+ million gods are we talking about the same thing?

What if I am talking about a deistic "God" then there is no salvation.

What if I am using "God" in the sense of the early Sabellians? Then I will spend my life trying to please "God" through my works and will reject the cross and the gospel message.

If I define God the way the Gnostics did then I am not in need of salvation as my earthy body by nature can't be redeemed only my spirit.

John refers yo these equivocations as "False Christ's" "Spirit of Error" " Spirit of AntiChrist!"

Do I want to be so careless with the gospel and the scriptures when so many disciples have written their testemonies in blood? When so many disciples have given their lives to preserve the scriptures so we can discern truth from lie?

All in the name of "not causing a division?"

Who God is matters. The Trinity was the subject of the Nicean Council and the next 6 church councils build off of that foundation. Joseph Smith rejected that foundation as foolish. His Christ is NOT the Christ of the NT.

"Can't we all just get along," is not the Biblical response.

That said, I have not responded with false claims, or divisive personal invective, but highlighted central Mormon claims, pointed out definitions, given sources, and asked for a conversation. No fallacious appeals to emotion.

Let's have a conversation based on scholarship and highlight where we have very different concepts masking as the same thing. Please join the discussion with facts and evidence.

 

[RaymondG]

Hmm?

If I say "God" but I believe in a Hindu God where there are 300+ million gods are we talking about the same thing?

What if I am talking about a deistic "God" then there is no salvation.

What if I am using "God" in the sense of the early Sabellians? Then I will spend my life trying to please "God" through my works and will reject the cross and the gospel message.

If I define God the way the Gnostics did then I am not in need of salvation as my earthy body by nature can't be redeemed only my spirit.

John refers yo these equivocations as "False Christ's" "Spirit of Error" " Spirit of AntiChrist!"

Do I want to be so careless with the gospel and the scriptures when so many disciples have written their testemonies in blood? When so many disciples hav

What about serving the God that has revealed Himself to you? How can you go wrong with that?
Many paint a picture or image of God from the writings and descriptions in the bible...and then worship the image. The pharisee knew the scriptures inside and out and felt they were worshiping the living God.....anyone who told them otherwise were blasphemers.
It is important, indeed, to know who we serve.

 

[Uber Genius]

What about serving the God that has revealed Himself to you? How can you go wrong with that?
Many paint a picture or image of God from the writings and descriptions in the bible...and then worship the image. The pharisee knew the scriptures inside and out and felt they were worshiping the living God.....anyone who told them otherwise were blasphemers.
It is important, indeed, to know who we server?

So I don't want to go overboard on my response. It seems that we go too far in evangelical circles and certainly fundamentalist one in setting up and maintaining boundaries on who gets to call themselves "Christians."

I want nothing to do with that project,

For more see Heibert's discussion of bounded sets vs center sets in "Anthropological Reflections in Christian Missiology."

Center set includes the nature of God, his view of how we approach him, the person of Jesus and the nature of his atoning work.

I take seriously the exclusive language Jesus and his disciples use regarding salvation.

Similarly false teachings are warned against with the same certitude.

Gandhi may have done great this for the people of India but he rejected Christ without researching claims. Gandhi was a scholar who refused to do his due diligence about the person and work of Christ. He swallowed the camel and strained the gnat.

Albert Schweitzer did the same. When people say I'm going to live a moral life (and I beleive an atheist can do this to the same extent a Christian can) but reject Christ or equivocate about who Christ is they are in danger.

We can have a discussion about people responding to differing levels of knowledge. But my examples are of people saying I am going to do good and I refuse to acknowledged Jesus as lord.

 

[Uber Genius]

"Jesus was the firstborn spirit child among billions of spirit children born to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and the first of their children to become a God. "

This is right out of the Mormon handbook.

Heavenly mother?

Jesus becomes a god.

The HS becomes a god

We become gods and rule in the celestial kingdom if we obey all the Mormon rites and duties!

Jesus and the disciples were concerned about false teachings "leading the weak-minded away."

Mormon claims sound close to Christian claims until you probe more deeply.

I am willing to let scriptural evidences and argument decide the matter. Since Mormons claim they are in line with scripture they need to explain away these critical differences.

Finally Romans 1:20 tells us all are without an excuse. There is revelation available to all who seek it. Why let a wolf among the sheep as Jesus describes false teachers?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Fair enough.

But I wonder if we have a univocal meaning when talking about God, and the three persons of the Trinity.

I have engaged Mormons for over 25 years on this subject and they find One God revealed in three persons (orthodox Theology) to be false..

Just clarifying things here (cause there is MUCH misunderstanding on both sides):

LDS and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
LDS believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

There is much misunderstand on of LDS beliefs from Athanasian Christians. Likewise, LDS frequently misunderstand Athanasian beliefs-- in my observations* >50% of LDS mistake Athanasian beliefs for modalism. This of course is inaccurate, and shows how much we all need to learn and really listen to each other.

*Disclaimer: this is my observations, not a formal scientific survey.

 

[Uber Genius]

Just clarifying things here (cause there is MUCH misunderstanding on both sides):

LDS and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
LDS believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

There is much misunderstand on of LDS beliefs from Athanasian Christians. Likewise, LDS frequently misunderstand Athanasian beliefs-- in my observations* >50% of LDS mistake Athanasian beliefs for modalism. This of course is inaccurate, and shows how much we all need to learn and really listen to each other.

*Disclaimer: this is my observations, not a formal scientific survey.

I posted clear references from the Mormon sources including its founder suggesting otherwise.

Please provides references from LDS where they retract their position on the Trinity, and their polytheistic nature of the Godhead held since the 1830s.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I posted clear references from the Mormon sources including its founder suggesting otherwise.

Please provides references from LDS where they retract their position on the Trinity, and their polytheistic nature of the Godhead held since the 1830s.

LDS aren't Athanasian Christians, I just explained that, highlighting the similarities and differences for you. Neither Athanasian Christians or LDS are polytheists and it's quite offensive to say that (as I'm sure you've likewise heard that accusation from Muslims too).

(PS- if you want to continue this conversation, another venue would be a good idea).

 

[Uber Genius]

LDS aren't Athanasian Christians, I just explained that, highlighting the similarities and differences for you. Neither Athanasian Christians or LDS polytheists and it's quite offensive to say that (as I'm sure you've likewise heard that accusation from Muslims too).

(PS- if you want to continue this conversation, another venue would be a good idea).

Please remove "Mormon" as your denomination descriptor!

It is the source of the confusion.

As well as you don't say, "I'm not a Mormon," in any of your posts, you just give us a description of Athanasian Christianity.