Why do Christians say that Jesus is the Messiah?

[King Cyrus]

That's really interesting. But that reading only occurs in the Masoretic text. That's not what the LXX says. It Has Moses saying? "You did not eat bread nor drink wine in the wilderness that you would know THIS IS the Lord Your God."

But the LXX is inferior to the original Hebrew. Moreover, the Septuagint in our hands is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian recension. The original Septuagint, translated about 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish scholars, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone, but is no longer in our hands. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the Church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the authenticity and Jewishness of the Septuagint.

 

[King Cyrus]

What about this verse? This could mean what was previously mentioned earlier in that chapter concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz (disconnected with Immanuel). My argument from #114 still stands.

What are your thoughts on Daniel 2:44?

I'm quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that Daniel 2:44 ties in with what we find in Isaiah 7 and 8?

 

[Jonaitis]

I'm quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that Daniel 2:44 ties in with what we find in Isaiah 7 and 8?

Isaiah 7:14, not whole chapters of 7 and 8.

I am curious about the argument from your side about this verse. It appears that the kingdom of God must arrive in the days of one of the kings of one of these kingdoms; or one of the kings of the fourth kingdom, however you take it. When will this get fulfilled, has it been fulfilled, what is the meaning?

 

[King Cyrus]

Isaiah 7:14, not whole chapters of 7 and 8.

I am curious about the argument from your side about this verse. It appears that the kingdom of God must arrive in the days of one of the kings of one of these empires; or one of the kings of the fourth empire, however you take it. When will this get fulfilled, has it been fulfilled, what is the meaning?

Daniel is prophesying about kingdoms after his time, except Babylon which was the one during his time. Daniel lived well over a century after Ahaz died. Therefore the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 can not be applied to what Daniel is speaking of in Daniel 2:44 since the sign was to be for Ahaz.

 

[Jonaitis]

Daniel is prophesying about kingdoms after his time, except Babylon which was the one during his time. Daniel lived well over a century after Ahaz died. Therefore the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 can not be applied to what Daniel is speaking of in Daniel 2:44 since the sign was to be for Ahaz.

What are the kingdoms after his time? We know from the text that the first kingdom here is Babylon, who were the others superseding them?

 

[King Cyrus]

What are the kingdoms after his time? We know from the text that the first kingdom here is Babylon, who were the others superseding them?

The first is Babylon, the second is Persia, the third is Greece, and then Rome, and then you have the kingdoms in which the Roman empire split up into.

 

[Jonaitis]

The first is Babylon, the second is Persia, the third is Greece, and then Rome, and then you have the kingdoms in which the Roman empire split up into.

Agreed!

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever." (v. 44)

It appears from this verse, God should have set up an eternal kingdom, indestructible; and it shall bring these kingdoms to an end. Has this happened? In Christian interpretation, you may already know, we see the Church as that eternal kingdom that has been set up, inaugurated after Christ died and resurrected in the first century, is growing and expanding over the earth until it is fully consummated at Christ's second advent. What is the Jewish interpretation?

I edited my post to add some verses taken from the NT regarding the Christian interpretation:

Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." - Mark 1:14-15

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” - Luke 17:20-21

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." - Luke 16:16

In the New Testament, we still must have a kingdom realized in all things, that is what we are expecting to come. At the moment, we remain an unrealized kingdom, awaiting the hope of the resurrection and eternal life.

 

[FireDragon76]

But the evidence does not point towards Jesus as the Messiah.

He overcame death itself and his followers identified him with God. That's persuasive enough for us. Sin and death are the enemy of the whole human race and the true conquest of the Messiah, not fighting over who controls a piece of land.

Look at Isaiah 25:7-8 "On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
he will swallow up death forever"

 

[King Cyrus]

Agreed!

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever." (v. 44)

It appears from this verse, God should have set up an eternal kingdom, indestructible; and it shall bring these kingdoms to an end. Has this happened? In Christian interpretation, you may already know, we see the Church as that eternal kingdom that has been set up, inaugurated after Christ died and resurrected in the first century, is growing and expanding over the earth until it is fully consummated at Christ's second advent. What is the Jewish interpretation?

The kings refer to the leaders of the toes of Rome throughout the centuries. That is, the Roman empire split into the many European nations and those nations have had many kings/leaders throughout the centuries. They are referred to as iron mixed with clay because they would not get along in which the European powers have not. The Kingdom of God as presented in the Jewish Scriptures is not an invisible thing or simply an organization. It is a physical Kingdom in which the there will be a universal knowledge of God throughout the whole world (Isaiah 11:9) and there will be no more war (Isaiah 2).

 

[Jonaitis]

The kings refer to the leaders of the toes of Rome throughout the centuries. That is, the Roman empire split into the many European nations and those nations have had many kings/leaders throughout the centuries. They are referred to as iron mixed with clay because they would not get along in which the European powers have not. The Kingdom of God as presented in the Jewish Scriptures is not an invisible thing or simply an organization. It is a physical Kingdom in which the there will be a universal knowledge of God throughout the whole world (Isaiah 11:9) and there will be no more war (Isaiah 2).

Your interpretation of the kings are a stretch, especially since kings is almost non-existent. It is clear that Daniel is referring to the four kingdoms, or the fourth kingdom, there is no other way to understand it. The kingdom that God will set up must break these kingdoms, how do you explain that?

I agree, the kingdom God will set up will be a physical one, that's what we Christians are waiting for. We are just the people, waiting for the coming king, to realize what we are. That's the purpose of the resurrection for us. On that day, we will be the only kingdom left in the new earth, filled with people from every nation who believed in the anointed Jesus.

 

[FireDragon76]

According to the Christian point of view that house is still a stump and a root. Chrsitians recognize that the Davidic Throne has not been restored. The fact that it has been a long time is completely consistent with Biblical prophecy. We read in Hosea 3:4-5: "For the children of Israel shall be many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod or teraphim; afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto the LORD and to His goodness in the end of days."

No, this is not the Christian point of view. We do not believe the Davidic throne is merely a stump. Christ reigns in heaven and on earth in the hearts of those who believe in him and who minister his Word.

We are not without a sacrifice. Jesus offered the one sufficient and perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, whose benefits we receive through the rites he instituted. Our sacrifice is praise and worship offered in our churches.

 

[King Cyrus]

He overcame death itself

How?

and his followers identified him with God.

My study of your NT has shown me the opposite. There are many times that the apostles of Jesus refer to the Father as his God (Jn 20:17, Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 3:12). And we also get statements like this from Jesus: "Believe in God, believe also in me" (Jn 14:1). This statement wouldn't make sense if Jesus thought he was the Almighty.

That's persuasive enough for us. Sin and death are the enemy of the whole human race and the true conquest of the Messiah, not fighting over who controls a piece of land.

Look at Isaiah 25:7-8 "On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever"

But the Messiah is not responsible for the sins of other men. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. The Messiah's job is quite literally fighting to insure that the children of Israel inhabit the land they were promised by God.

 

[King Cyrus]

How about the kingdom God will set up that will not be destroyed, but endure forever?

I agree, the kingdom God will set up will be a physical one, that's what we Christians are waiting for. We are just the people, waiting for the coming king, to realize what we are. That's the purpose of the resurrection for us. On that day, we will be the only kingdom left in the new earth, filled with people from every nation who believed in the anointed Jesus

It will be established sometime in this age - that is, during this age of the European powers throughout the centuries.

 

[Jonaitis]

It will be established sometime in this age - that is, during this age of the European powers throughout the centuries.

I'm sorry, I edited my post, could you address it again?

 

[King Cyrus]

No, this is not the Christian point of view. We do not believe the Davidic throne is merely a stump. Christ reigns in heaven and on earth in the hearts of those who believe in him and who minister his Word.

The main problem Jews have will believing in the Jesus of the NT is that he didn't actually accomplish anything and all things which he did supposedly accomplish conveniently have an invisible effect.

We are not without a sacrifice. Jesus offered the one sufficient and perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, whose benefits we receive through the rites he instituted. Our sacrifice is praise and worship offered in our churches.

But the Christian concept of Jesus being a sacrifice is so confusing and convoluted that even Christians have no idea what they're talking about when they say that Jesus died for their sins.

 

[Jonaitis]

But the Christian concept of Jesus being a sacrifice is so confusing and convoluted that even Christians have no idea what they're talking about when they say that Jesus died for their sins.

Who do you talk to?

Jesus' death was to reconcile sinners to God. He suffered the penalty that sin would deserve in eternal punishment. He was able to do this, because of who he was. I can go into great detail.

 

[salt-n-light]

How?

My study of your NT has shown me the opposite. There are many times that the apostles of Jesus refer to the Father as his God (Jn 20:17, Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 3:12). And we also get statements like this from Jesus: "Believe in God, believe also in me" (Jn 14:1). This statement wouldn't make sense if Jesus thought he was the Almighty.


But the Messiah is not responsible for the sins of other men. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. The Messiah's job is quite literally fighting to insure that the children of Israel inhabit the land they were promised by God.

Then why did he need to die then?
Why would he said that I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes through the Father but through me?
Heck, who are the Jews waiting for? Don't they have an Israel now?

 

[King Cyrus]

Your interpretation of the kings are a stretch, especially since kings is almost non-existent. It is clear that Daniel is referring to the four kingdoms, or the fourth kingdom, there is no other way to understand it. The kingdom that God will set up must break these kingdoms, how do you explain that?

But the kingdom of God does not break those four kingdoms. Because if you look at the prophecies in Daniel chapter 2 as a whole you'll notice that the first three kingdoms are already broken by the time the fourth kingdom arises. Persia conquered Babylon, Greece conquered Persia, Greece was divided after the death of Alexander and was later conquered by the Romans, and then the Roman empire fell and split up into many kingdoms. It is those kingdoms which the Roman empire broke up into that Scripture is speaking about here. What kingdoms those will be and who their kings will be when the King Messiah comes and establishes the Kingdom of God is a matter of dispute.

I agree, the kingdom God will set up will be a physical one, that's what we Christians are waiting for. We are just the people, waiting for the coming king, to realize what we are. That's the purpose of the resurrection for us. On that day, we will be the only kingdom left in the new earth, filled with people from every nation who believed in the anointed Jesus.

But the problem is that Christians are asserting that if Jews don't believe in Jesus now that they won't be saved. But the problem is that the prophecies concerning what the Messiah will do and what will happen in his days has not happened yet.

 

[King Cyrus]

Who do you talk to?

Jesus' death was to reconcile sinners to God. He suffered the penalty that sin would deserve in eternal punishment. He was able to do this, because of who he was. I can go into great detail.

I've looked up Christian explanations of this doctrine and it sounds like they don't even know what they're talking about. If you could, explain the Christian concept of Jesus' death in detail - explain what his death did and how exactly his death accomplished that action.

 

[King Cyrus]

Then why did he need to die then?

He doesn't.

Why would he said that I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes through the Father but through me?

The Messiah didn't say that. Jesus did.

Heck, who are the Jews waiting for? Don't they have an Israel now?

The Jews are waiting for the promised Messianic King described in passages such as Isaiah 11, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Daniel 7:13-14, etc. No one has fulfilled these prophecies yet so the Messiah hasn't come.