Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

[Extraneous]

"John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."

You said that Christ didnt record his words. You are using a logical fallacy by trying to use them now. Christ also said to beware the hypocrisy of false teachers.

 

[Extraneous]

Extraneous, true theology is anything but insulting and casting aspersion on your fellow Christians who don't share you views. In a true theological dialogue, you address your opponents arguments. If you disagree, you should provide a rational rebuttal. There is no excuse for attacking someone's character. Also, all you have stated here are your opinions, your interpretation of Scripture. OK, fine. That's what we are here for. However, your posts are your opinions and just that. So they can and should be questioned. And those who question you should be treated with respect. That's the rule here.

I have not disrespected you, i merely pointed out the flaws in your so called theology. You talk about love and respect, yet how do you know about these things? Surely from scripture, but at the same time you ignore most scripture and cherry pick the ones that suit you. I merely pointed that out. Its not hateful to do so. Its you who are attacking my character, by saying that im hateful and attacking you. That's hypocrisy hoghead.

 

[Hoghead1]

Abraxos, it seems you want to rundown science by saying that evolutionary thinkers all are stupid, lack proper faith, etc. That's a no-no in serious theological discussion. You have to be respectful of those who disagree with you. You have very definite opinions on these matters. OK, fine. But they are just that, your opinions. There is no apparent reason why they should be considered any better than what others have to say who may very well disagree with you. Frankly, whenever I encounter laity blasting away at science, I immediately write that off as the result of an overblown ego and an underdeveloped intellect. Well you may study Scripture and present your conclusions. But they are simply just that, your conclusions as a lay person. OK, fine. Nothing wrong with being laity and expressing yourself. However, I need to see some solid credentials and scholarship behind what some is saying in order for me to take it as something I should pause and consider.

 

[Hoghead1]

Extaneous, you have yet to point out any flaws, not one. What you have done is insist that the only way to interpret Scripture is via the fundamentalist understanding. Now, I agree that you have the right to do so. But you are still presenting a number of questionable opinions on your part and then berating others who do not agree.

 

[Extraneous]

Frankly, whenever I encounter laity blasting away at science, I immediately write that off as the result of an overblown ego and an underdeveloped intellect.

I thought you told us to be nice and not attack character? I thought such comments had no place in a serious theological discussion? Hoghead,you seem to be contradicting your own arguments with self serving double standards.

 

[Hoghead1]

ScottA, I don't think you quite understand the authority issue here. God is in control, true. But that need not mean God is a dictator, determining it all. At no point does the Bible claim that. Indeed, the Bible presents God in a continual struggle to gain between control over rebellious persons. Hence, the Bible recognizes we have free decision-making and therefore can run afoul of teh will of God. Also, given the realities of freedom and personal responsibility, it makes no sense to assume God dictates it all. Remember, it takes more talent to govern over a democracy than over a dictatorship.

 

[Extraneous]

Extaneous, you have yet to point out any flaws, not one. What you have done is insist that the only way to interpret Scripture is via the fundamentalist understanding. Now, I agree that you have the right to do so. But you are still presenting a number of questionable opinions on your part and then berating others who do not agree.

Please, dont accuse me of something you yourself have done throughout this discussion. THe fact that ToE is worldly and divides us is evidence that its not profitable, nor spiritual. We only prove my point with this very debate, which serves no useful purpose other than to divide us.

 

[Hoghead1]

No, I have not contradicted myself. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of some lay persons to think they are so much smarter than all these scientists. Also, if you expect that everyone is going to agree with you on everything, you are in for a rude awakening and a rough trip through life. If you are uncomfortable with debating, with encountering fellow Christians who do not share your views, then theological discussion is not a place where you should be. And you are not worldly yourself? After all, you are going on the human-made theories of the church fathers, your own thinking, etc. That sure seems pretty worldly to me. Now, I have no trouble with you a or anyone else doing that. It's just that I want others to be honest about where they are coming from.

 

[miamited]

When I was little I believed in Evolution without a moments thought to ever question it. I believed we used to live in caves and hunt Mammoths and what-have-you. I've seen the iconic picture of the ape slowly transitioning into a man and thought it was real because scientists said so, right?

I started to see the inconsistencies in the "science" that evolutionists had in backing up their theory and found the evidence for evolution to be quite laughable and dishonest. I quickly began to realize that convincing others how stupid the theory of evolution was (even though the evidence is clear)was not an evidential problem, but a spiritual problem. When I walked with God and studied the Bible and it's history diligently (took a few years) I learned it was only through the Bible I was able to distinguish truth from lie otherwise I would perhaps still be believing evolution was a scientific fact.

That said, I've known many Christians who love Jesus Christ and God as much as the next Christian and still believe evolution is scientific fact. What's important is they are good people and love Jesus Christ and accept him as their lord and saviour, right? Personally, the book of revelation speaks of the different standpoints in the faith and I see this theory as a necessity.

Hi abraxos,

I certainly hope that you're right, but...

Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God.

Jesus said that when we are born again that we receive the Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth.

Now, surely he was talking about the things of God and not the 'truth' of geometric theorems, so...

If there is a truth concerning what God has written to us in the Scriptures concerning the creation, wouldn't those who have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth, know that truth?

On this issue I often ponder what '666' might mean. The Scriptures tell us that it is the number of man. Most translations actually write it as 'a man', but I'm not absolutely convinced that's the correct translation. Many try to figure out through numerology of letters how the name of some man might be translated into 666. Is this really what God is telling us? Could it be that it is merely the number of man and the point that God is trying to make is that we will each be judged on whether we believed man or God?

So, I agree that the first step in being a child of God is to believe Jesus and trust in him for the forgiveness of our sin, but that's only a first step. From there we receive the Holy Spirit who leads those who are born again into all truth. We are changed and we no longer hold to the worldview that man holds to. We become a child of the kingdom of God and our worldview is His worldview.

Jesus spoke of the day of judgment and clearly speaks of a group of people who did great miracles in his name and drove out demons in his name. These were obviously people who expressed some faith in Jesus while they lived on this earth. What could it be that makes them different from others who expressed faith in Jesus, but Jesus knows their name?

Jesus also spoke of the way of eternal life and said that many are on the broad road that leads to destruction, but few there be that follow the way of eternal life. Now, right now in the world there are many, many, many people who profess faith in Christ. Are they part of the many because they don't believe God or part of the few because they do.

Finally, Jesus said that not everyone who says to me, "Lord. Lord. Will be saved." So, are we really telling people the truth when we tell them that all they have to do is call on the Lord and it's all done and done?

Admittedly these are the thoughts and ponderings of a wicked man with a wicked heart, but I think each one needs to consider these things. It may actually turn out that believing God is a bigger issue than you seem to propose. the Scriptures tell us that the heavens declare the glory of God. Are we understanding properly how the heavens are declaring the glory of God.

Just thoughts to ponder.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Colter]

You said that Christ didnt record his words. You are using a logical fallacy by trying to use them now. Christ also said to beware the hypocrisy of false teachers.

I said Jesus didn't leave any writings of his own. The gospels were written by others who gathered up as much quote material as they could.


Luke 1New International Version (NIV)
Introduction
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

 

[Hoghead1]

Abraxos, you and other here are making the implicit assumption that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and the only one truly Christian. Now, I know for a fact that isn't completely true. The Bible is subject to many interpretations in Christianity. Yours is not the only one or necessarily the most viable. If you want to assume that the Bible is inerrant, OK, fine. But that is just your theory. So it is not beyond question. I and other fellow Christians here are simply questioning your theory and with good reason.

 

[KWCrazy]

KW, sarcastic statements such s "you can read the stars, but you can't read the Bible" are insulting and totally inappropriate in this or any theological discussion group.

Wrong, it's perfectly relevant. I don't expect atheists to revere God, but I DO expect Christians to acknowledge God's holy word. If you deny the word you deny God. How can you be a follower of a God you deny? Of Christ who died for nothing because there was no fall of man and no righteous judgment? How can we tell who is who when the Christians hold the Word in the same contempt as the non-believers?

I have very specifically asked you to demonstrate how the Bible agrees with evolution as the Biblical scholar you claim to be. I never positioned myself as a research theologian, but you seem to make quite a show of discussing how much more you know than the poor, uneducated Christian. So what have we seen from you? Zip! Zero! Nothing! I've seen more Scriptural knowledge coming from atheists. Either you choose to share none of the knowledge you profess to have or you simply don't have it. I'm beginning to think you're just another account held by the same self-professed "Biblical scholar" that I have ignored under multiple screen names. Demonstrate how the Scriptures support evolution or admit they do not. I'm done with the games.

 

[Extraneous]

No, I have not contradicted myself. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of some lay persons to think they are so much smarter than all these scientists. Also, if you expect that everyone is going to agree with you on everything, you are in for a rude awakening and a rough trip through life. If you are uncomfortable with debating, with encountering fellow Christians who do not share your views, then theological discussion is not a place where you should be. And you are not worldly yourself? After all, you are going on the human-made theories of the church fathers, your own thinking, etc. That sure seems pretty worldly to me. Now, I have no trouble with you a or anyone else doing that. It's just that I want others to be honest about where they are coming from.

Im going on what the apostles teach us in their scripture, nothing more or less, besides the help of the spirit of course. This isn't about me, so please stop making it about me. This isnt about my dislike for debate, and you only get off topic with that assertion. Its about sound doctrine. Its about what is and isn't of the spirit. Division, contrary to your flawed assertions, is not of the spirit. The only reason we have divisions are because we don't mind things of the spirit but rather things of the flesh. ToE is a worldly thing of the flesh and causes division, and its not of the spirit. That's my point, and please dont shift that focus of my point and onto me personally.

Furthermore, your trust of worldly scientists is misplaced and your mind is divided over it. Science is ok, but whenever it divides the body, over nothing more than a fallible man made theory, then it becomes flesh works.

 

[miamited]

Abraxos, it seems you want to rundown science by saying that evolutionary thinkers all are stupid, lack proper faith, etc. That's a no-no in serious theological discussion. You have to be respectful of those who disagree with you. You have very definite opinions on these matters. OK, fine. But they are just that, your opinions. There is no apparent reason why they should be considered any better than what others have to say who may very well disagree with you. Frankly, whenever I encounter laity blasting away at science, I immediately write that off as the result of an overblown ego and an underdeveloped intellect. Well you may study Scripture and present your conclusions. But they are simply just that, your conclusions as a lay person. OK, fine. Nothing wrong with being laity and expressing yourself. However, I need to see some solid credentials and scholarship behind what some is saying in order for me to take it as something I should pause and consider.

Hi hoghead,

I don't think that you can rightfully hold abraxos responsible for what you read into those comments. Abraxos did not say that evolutionary thinkers are all stupid and I'm not sure that saying that someone seems to lack proper faith is a no-no in serious theological discussion. Jesus told a group of people that their faith was weak, would you deny him the right to be involved in 'serious theological discussion'? The truth is, and I imagine that abraxos will agree but he'll have to speak for himself before you can bash me about assuming what he's saying, but I think what he's saying is that people are deceived. Smart people can be deceived. Especially when the deception lies in the evidence that they are studying. The evidence, if we allow only the natural properties of things to be the measuring rod, certainly points to an old earth and universe. I will freely admit that. The problem is that when God works, the natural properties of things go out the window. Things that we can't even think to imagine could happen - happen! The sun can go backward in its course across the sky. Daylight can be full and bright in one city and then in another only a mile or so away it can be so pitch dark that people can't see their hand in front of their face. Water can stand like a wall hundreds of feet high. Science can only study the here and now based on the natural properties of things.

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to read into something that someone writes your own personal biases and prejudices and then blame them for saying what your personal biases and prejudices are.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

 

[Extraneous]

Hoghead. Please stop teaching that the bible agrees with ToE. That is an unfounded assertion. Its a false doctrine.

 

[Extraneous]

I said Jesus didn't leave any writings of his own. The gospels were written by others who gathered up as much quote material as they could.


Luke 1New International Version (NIV)
Introduction
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

You are taking Luke 1 out of context. Mathew and John were eye witnesses, Luke was not.

 

[Extraneous]

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, (sounds like this thread)

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Hoghead1]

OK, Extraneous, maybe I came across as a bit rough and insulting, so let me reword what I am saying. Let me ask you a couple of questions. How and why do you expect that I would believe your word over what the scientists have to say, when they are the experts and you are not? How and why do you expect I would buy your interpretation of Scripture over what modern biblical scholars have to say, when they are the experts and you are not? And please don't try and answer by saying you are more full of the Spirit.

 

[Extraneous]

OK, Extraneous, maybe I came across as a bit rough and insulting, so let me reword what I am saying. Let me ask you a couple of questions. How and why do you expect that I would believe your word over what the scientists have to say, when they are the experts and you are not? How and why do you expect I would buy your interpretation of Scripture over what modern biblical scholars have to say, when they are the experts and you are not? And please don't try and answer by saying you are more full of the Spirit.

First off, its just a fallible theory for crying out loud, why do you treat it like its the holy knowledge of God?

Secondly, ToE is completely irrelevant in the kingdom that we are supposed to be seeking. We are taught to mind things of the spirit, not worldly things. Worldly things only cause us to argue. Our purpose is to feed widows and orphans and stay unspotted by the world. When we argue over worldly things like ToE we are not remaining unspotted by the world but the opposite actually.. Debate is a work of the flesh, plain and simple. The only reason we have debates are because we are minding things of the flesh rather that the spirit alone. Debate has its use when learning scripture, as long as its about learning scripture instead of promoting denominations which also only divide us, but to debate worldly things like ToE is just a work of flesh. Its useless for us. If you want to believe ToE thats your decision, but its not spiritual and has no spiritual value, so why would you want to cause division over it? Look at the Lord and the apostles, they gave up everything for us and for Christ. We cant even give up our worldly politics and scientific theories that divide us? We are deluding ourselves if we think we are being spiritual people in those things.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Evidence supports evolution.

Give me the evidence of one 'kind' that evolved into another?