Why do Catholics Pray to the Saints?

[concretecamper]

Please...PLEASE post the Scriptures which tell us that there are "THOSE IN HEAVEN" (Your words) that can make intercession for men

Rev.
And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. And the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it on the earth: and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

So, I guess you dont believe that the saints on earth and the saints in heaven are part of the 1 body of Christ.

 

[concretecamper]

.

 

[Major1]

Rev.
And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. And the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it on the earth: and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

So, I guess you dont believe that the saints on earth and the saints in heaven are part of the 1 body of Christ.

You are really having to work hard to prove something that is not there.

"Another angel" is not Christ. When you actually read the verse you posted, we can all understand that no one is praying to the angel or to any dead believer in heaven. The angel's only job was to transport them and keep them safe until they were received.

To say that the Bible says we are to pray to dead people in heaven is simply not true and the Scripture you posted does not say that.

Praying to the dead is unbiblical. The Bible condemns it as both useless and dangerous. Very often, personal issues are left unresolved when a loved one dies. Those left behind may wish to speak the words they needed to say beforehand, in hopes that the dead can hear. But the dead cannot hear. Instead, speak to the Lord Jesus Christ as He and only He can bring closure to our own hearts.
( Should we pray to or speak to the dead?)

The important thing to see here, is that our prayers go to the throne of God, to the most Holy place as Jesus is the ONLY one between us and God.

 

[Major1]

Rev.
And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. And the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it on the earth: and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

So, I guess you dont believe that the saints on earth and the saints in heaven are part of the 1 body of Christ.

You are really having to work hard to prove something that is not there.

"Another angel" is not Christ. When you actually read the verse you posted, we can all understand that no one is praying to the angel or to any dead believer in heaven. The angel's only job was to transport them and keep them safe until they were received.

To say that the Bible says we are to pray to dead people in heaven is simply not true and the Scripture you posted does not say that.

Praying to the dead is unbiblical. The Bible condemns it as both useless and dangerous. Very often, personal issues are left unresolved when a loved one dies. Those left behind may wish to speak the words they needed to say beforehand, in hopes that the dead can hear. But the dead cannot hear. Instead, speak to the Lord Jesus Christ as He and only He can bring closure to our own hearts.
( Should we pray to or speak to the dead?)

The important thing to see here, is that our prayers go to the throne of God, to the most Holy place as Jesus is the ONLY one between us and God.

I am amazed at how you need to say things that I have never said. I wonder what your local priest would say about that???

I have corrected you now about 3 or 4 times on this so now I am sure it is deliberate.

Again.......There is ONLY ONE CHURCH. It is made up of all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ whether they are alive or dead.

It IS NOT the Catholic Church or the Methodist or Assembly of God or Baptist or any other denomination. It is the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[concretecamper]

You are really having to work hard to prove something that is not there.

I dont have to, it is ll there.

To say that the Bible says we are to pray to dead people in heaven

people in Heaven are not dead. You have some odd biblical interpretations.

Praying to the dead is unbiblical

your mistake is calling them dead. You obviously dont follow the bible if you call saints in heaven dead people.

The important thing to see here, is that our prayers go to the throne of God, to the most Holy place as Jesus is the ONLY one between us and God.

which is what the Church teaches.

See, I have shown you that you do not follow scripture. I pray some day you do.

 

[concretecamper]

I have corrected you now about 3 or 4 times on this so now I am sure it is deliberate.

I will NOT follow your unbiblical ideas. Geez.

 

[Major1]

Rev.
And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. And the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it on the earth: and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

So, I guess you dont believe that the saints on earth and the saints in heaven are part of the 1 body of Christ.

You are really having to work hard to prove something that is not there.

"Another angel" is not Christ. When you actually read the verse you posted, we can all understand that no one is praying to the angel or to any dead believer in heaven. The angel's only job was to transport them and keep them safe until they were received.

To say that the Bible says we are to pray to dead people in heaven is simply not true and the Scripture you posted does not say that.

Praying to the dead is unbiblical. The Bible condemns it as both useless and dangerous. Very often, personal issues are left unresolved when a loved one dies. Those left behind may wish to speak the words they needed to say beforehand, in hopes that the dead can hear. But the dead cannot hear. Instead, speak to the Lord Jesus Christ as He and only He can bring closure to our own hearts.
( Should we pray to or speak to the dead?)

The important thing to see here, is that our prayers go to the throne of God, to the most Holy place as Jesus is the ONLY one between us and God.

I am amazed at how you need to say things that I have never said. I wonder what your local priest would say about that???

I have corrected you now about 3 or 4 times on this so now I am sure it is deliberate.

Again.......There is ONLY ONE CHURCH. It is made up of all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ whether they are alive or dead.

It IS NOT the Catholic Church or the Methodist or Assembly of God or Baptist or any other denomination. It is the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Major1]

I dont have to, it is ll there.
people in Heaven are not dead. You have some odd biblical interpretations.
your mistake is calling them dead. You obviously dont follow the bible if you call saints in heaven dead people.
which is what the Church teaches.

See, I have shown you that you do not follow scripture. I pray some day you do.

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD???????

Acts 2:34...……......
"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand."

Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Peter made it perfectly clear David's physical body is in the ground but his spirit is in heaven. David just like all believers will come forth when the "dead in Christ rise first" at the Rapture of the Church. David's physical body, just like everyone else is now resting in the grave until the resurrection.

 

[Major1]

I dont have to, it is ll there.
people in Heaven are not dead. You have some odd biblical interpretations.
your mistake is calling them dead. You obviously dont follow the bible if you call saints in heaven dead people.
which is what the Church teaches.

See, I have shown you that you do not follow scripture. I pray some day you do.

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD???????

Acts 2:34...……......
"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand."

Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Peter made it perfectly clear David's physical body is in the ground but his spirit is in heaven. David just like all believers will come forth when the "dead in Christ rise first" at the Rapture of the Church. David's physical body, just like everyone else is now resting in the grave until the resurrection.

I will NOT follow your unbiblical ideas. Geez.

That would be an answer to ray.

 

[Major1]

I dont have to, it is ll there.
people in Heaven are not dead. You have some odd biblical interpretations.
your mistake is calling them dead. You obviously dont follow the bible if you call saints in heaven dead people.
which is what the Church teaches.

See, I have shown you that you do not follow scripture. I pray some day you do.

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD???????

Acts 2:34...……......
"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand."

Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Peter made it perfectly clear David's physical body is in the ground but his spirit is in heaven. David just like all believers will come forth when the "dead in Christ rise first" at the Rapture of the Church. David's physical body, just like everyone else is now resting in the grave until the resurrection.

I will NOT follow your unbiblical ideas. Geez.

That would be an answer to prayer!!!!!!.

 

[Major1]

I dont have to, it is ll there.
people in Heaven are not dead. You have some odd biblical interpretations.
your mistake is calling them dead. You obviously dont follow the bible if you call saints in heaven dead people.
which is what the Church teaches.

See, I have shown you that you do not follow scripture. I pray some day you do.

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD???????

The SOUL of man is eternal and lives on eternally but the BODY dies.

In fact, one of the requirements for the soul to enter heaven is for the body to die.

Acts 2:34...……......
"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand."

Acts 2:29, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Peter made it perfectly clear David's physical body is in the ground but his spirit is in heaven. David just like all believers will come forth when the "dead in Christ rise first" at the Rapture of the Church. David's physical body, just like everyone else is now resting in the grave until the resurrection.

I will NOT follow your unbiblical ideas. Geez.

That would be an answer to prayer!!!!!!.

 

[concretecamper]

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD??????

NO

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD??????

NO

The people in heaven are NOT DEAD??????

NO

 

[concretecamper]

Mass was awesome today. I participated in the Heavenly Liturgy as describe in the Book of Revelations. During the Offitory Rite, I thought back to Revelations Chapter 8. Praise Jesus.

Btw, no dead bodies did I see....lol

 

[Major1]

NO

NO

NO

Revelatuon 20:14-15...……...
"Then Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."

If there are NO dead people in heaven, then what is the FIRST DEATH????

Verse 14 above lists the SECOND death. For there to be TWO deaths there must be a FIRST death.

It seems to me that the most common and logical and Biblical understanding is that it refers to the physical death of the body.

In context it makes sense, since we're looking at a passage talking about the judgment of the resurrected, which implies that they suffered physical death already. What else could it possibly be????

What you seem to be unable to understand is that every person has a body, a soul, and a spirit. I just do not think you are able to answer the question so for those who read this stuff, I want them to have the correct answer, so...…..

1 Thess. 5:23...…………….
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

The human spirit is that God-conscious part of a person that distinguishes him from the animals. It includes both knowledge and judgment as recorded in Mark 8:12; 1 Corinthians 2:11. The soul is that part of a person that is the home of the affections—right or wrong—of love, hate, lusts and even of the appetites of the body and that is seen in Job 23:13; 1 Peter 2:1.

The body is the earthly house in which the spirit and soul dwell. At death a person's immortal, never-dying spirit and soul leave the mortal body. This is the first death, or physical death.

A believer's spirit and soul go immediately to heaven todayat the time of death. There is NO holding place or Purgatory. It is heaven or hell when the body dies.This is evident in the well-known account of the thief on the cross.

This repentant thief owned that he was getting what he deserved, and confessed Jesus as Lord, believing God would raise Him from the dead: "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."

The wonderful answer from the Lord Jesus was, "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:39-43).


That place of PARADISE does not exist today. All of the souls in PARADISE where removed by Jesus and taken to heaven when He assended.

This blessed truth of the believer being with the Lord Jesus immediately after death is also repeated in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:23.

It is especially comforting to the Christian to see that the Lord Jesus did not refer to the death of the believer as death. The Bible speaks of it as the body falling asleep (see John 11:11-14 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Death is the penalty of sin. The believer in the Lord Jesus does not come under the penalty of sin because the Lord Jesus took that penalty when He died on Calvary's cross.

However, An unbeliever's spirit and soul go immediately into a place of torment at the time of death. The Lord Jesus tells us of this awful torment in His account of the rich man and Lazarus.

Luke 16:19-31......
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame".

The rich man was in torments, not because he was rich, but because he had not believed God's Word. People may disregard this account, but it came from the lips of the One who suffered sin's agony and torment on Calvary's cross so that no one ever would need to experience this awful judgment.
Source....What is the First Death?

Hebrews 9:27 states......…………….
"It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment".

The judgement of the unbelievers then is easily equitable to the "second death," validating that the first death is the thing to which all men are appointed once. Since Genesis 3 indicates that all men are under the curse of physical death, that is then the only thing it can be.

As always, I am blessed to be able to help you.

 

[Major1]

I will NOT follow your unbiblical ideas. Geez.

When did I ever ask you to follow me?

If you are at the point where you do not want to learn the Scriptures, then I would consider it a personal favor AND an answer to prayer if you would just use the ignore option and do that!!!!

 

[Lost4words]

Were Moses and Elijah dead when they appeared to Jesus on the mountain?

 

[Major1]

Were Moses and Elijah dead when they appeared to Jesus on the mountain?

Excellent question.

As I have said before, just like everyone else, the soul does not perish and the spirit returns to God who gives it. Physical death is not the end but is actually the beginning!

Matthew 17:9 at the end of the Transfiguration of Moses and Elijah Jesus said..
"When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the VISION to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

I understand your need to prove me wrong and I do understand Catholic doctrine, however if you believe that Moses and Elijah were alive, I would ask you to again consider the actual Word of God which says in Deut. 34:5-6....

“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Bethpeor” .

And in Joshua 1:2 God said:
“Moses my servant is dead”.

Do you think that those Scriptures are lies????

So then, what then happened in the transfiguration? The key word to understand this is the word “vision” in Matthew 17:9, where Jesus told the disciples to “tell the vision to no man”.

Moses and Elias in the Lord's transfiguration

When Moses and Elias spoke to Jesus this was a supernatural vision and therefore didn’t require nor it meant that these two prophets were alive at that time.

Thank you for asking!

 

[Lost4words]

Excellent question.

As I have said before, just like everyone else, the soul does not perish and the spirit returns to God who gives it. Physical death is not the end but is actually the beginning!

Matthew 17:9 at the end of the Transfiguration of Moses and Elijah Jesus said..
"When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the VISION to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

I understand your need to prove me wrong and I do understand Catholic doctrine, however if you believe that Moses and Elijah were alive, I would ask you to again consider the actual Word of God which says in Deut. 34:5-6....

“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Bethpeor” .

And in Joshua 1:2 God said:
“Moses my servant is dead”.

Do you think that those Scriptures are lies????

So then, what then happened in the transfiguration? The key word to understand this is the word “vision” in Matthew 17:9, where Jesus told the disciples to “tell the vision to no man”.

When Moses and Elias spoke to Jesus this was a supernatural vision and therefore didn’t require nor it meant that these two prophets were alive at that time.

Thank you for asking!

So, they were indeed alive! Thanks for clarifying that my dear friend.

Just think of all the people that John saw 'alive' in heaven too in Revelation! What joy!

God bless you

 

[Major1]

So, they were indeed alive! Thanks for clarifying that my dear friend.

God bless you

I guess we are hung up on what is alive and what is dead. I have stated this 3 times now but it seems to be misunderstood.

IF you and your Catholic friends are saying the SPIRIT is alive then YES, that would be true.

However, Deut. 34:5-6....

“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Bethpeor” .

And in Joshua 1:2 God said:
“Moses my servant is dead”.

Do you think that those Scriptures are lies????

The bodies of ALL people who have ceased to exist on this earth are buried in a grave. Or are in someway destroyed. That is what dead means.
THE BODY IS DEAD.

In a vision, God allowed Moses and Elijah to be seen but they were not there in reality. It was a VISION given by God to encourage the Lord Jesus who was going to the cross.

There will come a day at the Rapture when the body and soul and spirit will be re-united and then be present with the Lord eternally.

Think about Ananias.

In Acts 9:10-12 we read:
“Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

Paul had seen Ananias in a vision, without Ananias even knowing it! The Lord told this to Ananias afterwards.

Please note that the fact that a person appears in a vision does not mean that this person is there physically. God can use his image to communicate a message to somebody. But this does not mean that this person is there at the time of the vision. In turn, the fact that Moses and Elias appeared in the transfiguration vision does not mean that they were there physically nor it means that they were alive at the time of the vision.
Moses and Elias in the Lord's transfiguration

 

[Lost4words]

What I posted for you is exactly what the Scriptures say my friend.

I do not know anything except Christ and Him crucified.

For you to say...…...……
" read your unbiblical accounts of the Gospel. What you preach is not the gospel according to Jesus, but the gospel according to you", tells me that you do not know what the gospel is and you do not know what the Bible account is as what I posted is exactly what the Scriptures say.

I can not help but wonder why you need to argue over the gospel????

All you or anyone has to do is open your Bible and confirm my comments.

You seem to bring your own 'personal' views / interpretations of scripture to the table time and again.