Why do Catholics Pray to the Saints?

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

"He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’". --Luke 16
​

As much as God loves carrying out His will through His creations, it's not surprising that He carries out His will through them in Heaven, too! We see angels all over the Bible; even though God sometimes intervenes on His own, He likes to use His servants, too! Humans are the same way; we see people in Heaven interested in Earthly affairs at the Transfiguration in Luke 9. After all, belief in intercession of the saints in heaven (and the saints on Earth!) goes very far back in Church history, and even today, Christians will talk about the help they get from their friends & family in the next life.

This is a short article, and it addresses several key points & confusions in an easy to read fashion. Please do read the article before replying; sometimes people will just quote a proof-text that's directly mentioned in the article, and I don't want you to be the silly-looking one who shows that they like to respond without really looking at what the other person said. (Proverbs 18)

Why do Catholics ask for the intersession of the Saints? - Diocese of Westminster Youth Ministry

May God bless us all & lead us to the truth about our brethren in Heaven! (Hey, that rhymes!)

 

[Jonaitis]

"All this said, what should be acknowledged is that the practice of ‘patron’ saints, likely does have some influence from Germanic paganism...in this way, many were helped on their conversation to the new faith as their daily devotion could remain fairly similar, but instead of calling on Thor for support in battle they would turn to St George, St Marius or St Michael."

I never saw that connection before, but that's interesting to piece together. It makes sense. I mean the Greeks had their patron gods who fought for and protected them. For an example, Corinth chose Poseidon, lord of the sea, as their city-state patron god. I wonder if this had any influence too.

"What we do instead is respect and honour them, similar to how we respect and honour our parents and grandparents here on earth. We call this honouring of the saints ‘veneration’."

This sounds eastern. Mahayana Buddhism has formal liturgical practices for venerating saints, along with very specific levels of sainthood. Tibetan Buddhists venerate especially holy lamas, such as the Dalai Lama, as saints. This sort of practice is found in Hinduism as well.

"Please do [pray directly to God]! Prayer to God is essential and prayer with the saints should only ever be a supplement and support to this relationship. "

I don't understand intercessions from those already with God, if it is better to ask God himself who is present with the saints. If he is the one who answers, why do we need a supplement? Is our direct relationship with God incomplete or imperfect? Is God not relatable to us, his creatures, whom he created and redeemed? Jesus came in the greatest form of that bridge between both worlds, why do we need more? Jesus is God and man, the one inbetween middle-man, the mediator.

In this whole article, I haven't found one example of any Christian or Jew praying for those already in heaven. You would think it was something the apostles would have mentioned as Paul said in one place, "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" (1 Tim. 2:1-2).

If prayer is an act of worship, directing it to anyone other than God is idolatry. You can say that it isn't, that veneration in this way has no connection to worship, but that's a poor argument.

 

[tz620q]

"All this said, what should be acknowledged is that the practice of ‘patron’ saints, likely does have some influence from Germanic paganism...in this way, many were helped on their conversation to the new faith as their daily devotion could remain fairly similar, but instead of calling on Thor for support in battle they would turn to St George, St Marius or St Michael."

I never saw that connection before, but that's interesting to piece together. It makes sense. I mean the Greeks had their patron gods who fought for and protected them. For an example, Corinth chose Poseidon, lord of the sea, as their city-state patron god. I wonder if this had any influence too.

Syncretism is an interesting subject to discuss. How much should Christians use an existing culture in their attempts at conversion? When is it appropriate to convert their religious symbols to Christian ones and when is it dangerous? I can think of the example of Paul preaching to the Greeks in the Areopagus mentioning the unnamed God that had a statue dedicated to it. He states that they are ignorant of the very things they worship. So he is using a part of their culture as a reference point to what true worship should be. He is not talking against worship; but false worship. To me, the line is whether the syncretic act is pointing the individual at God. If it is not, then it is at best worthless and at worst, idolatrous.

 

[tz620q]

"

"Please do [pray directly to God]! Prayer to God is essential and prayer with the saints should only ever be a supplement and support to this relationship. "

I don't understand intercessions from those already with God, if it is better to ask God himself who is present with the saints. If he is the one who answers, why do we need a supplement? Is our direct relationship with God incomplete or imperfect? Is God not relatable to us, his creatures, whom he created and redeemed? Jesus came in the greatest form of that bridge between both worlds, why do we need more? Jesus is God and man, the one inbetween middle-man, the mediator.

Your questions could just have easily been about why pray to God at all. If he already knows our hearts and our direct relationship with God is complete and perfect, why would prayer of any sort be necessary. Though it is telling that Jesus, who was God incarnate, still felt the need to pray to God the Father. So a perfect relationship cannot be a roadblock to prayer. In fact, it might actually be the very essence of that perfect relationship that we want to commune and communicate to the other. And if we view prayer as a form of communication that comes from love in relationship, why would prayer to our dearly departed be condemned. Isn't it more superstitious to fear this form of communication as necromancy, rather than a love that did not die with the individual.

But maybe this is all just a pagan act going back to early ancestor worship. You see we cannot view the world as so black and white, where Christianity is wholly right and therefore all other worship is wholly wrong. Our ancestors, even the pagan ones, had certain truths within their beliefs.

 

[Major1]

"He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’". --Luke 16
​

As much as God loves carrying out His will through His creations, it's not surprising that He carries out His will through them in Heaven, too! We see angels all over the Bible; even though God sometimes intervenes on His own, He likes to use His servants, too! Humans are the same way; we see people in Heaven interested in Earthly affairs at the Transfiguration in Luke 9. After all, belief in intercession of the saints in heaven (and the saints on Earth!) goes very far back in Church history, and even today, Christians will talk about the help they get from their friends & family in the next life.

This is a short article, and it addresses several key points & confusions in an easy to read fashion. Please do read the article before replying; sometimes people will just quote a proof-text that's directly mentioned in the article, and I don't want you to be the silly-looking one who shows that they like to respond without really looking at what the other person said. (Proverbs 18)

Why do Catholics ask for the intersession of the Saints? - Diocese of Westminster Youth Ministry

May God bless us all & lead us to the truth about our brethren in Heaven! (Hey, that rhymes!)

Catholics pray to the dead saints because they want to.

There is NO Bible Scripture that directs us to pray top the dead. It is another of the false practices encouraged and taught by the Catholic church.

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

Rev. 19:10...………...
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,".

If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing as it is actually and literally idolatry.

 

[Jonaitis]

Syncretism is an interesting subject to discuss. How much should Christians use an existing culture in their attempts at conversion? When is it appropriate to convert their religious symbols to Christian ones and when is it dangerous? I can think of the example of Paul preaching to the Greeks in the Areopagus mentioning the unnamed God that had a statue dedicated to it. He states that they are ignorant of the very things they worship. So he is using a part of their culture as a reference point to what true worship should be. He is not talking against worship; but false worship. To me, the line is whether the syncretic act is pointing the individual at God. If it is not, then it is at best worthless and at worst, idolatrous.

It is dangerous to trade practices when it involves tinkering with the word of God. We ought to regulate all forms of worship according to the Scripture alone.

 

[Jonaitis]

Your questions could just have easily been about why pray to God at all. If he already knows our hearts and our direct relationship with God is complete and perfect, why would prayer of any sort be necessary. Though it is telling that Jesus, who was God incarnate, still felt the need to pray to God the Father. So a perfect relationship cannot be a roadblock to prayer. In fact, it might actually be the very essence of that perfect relationship that we want to commune and communicate to the other. And if we view prayer as a form of communication that comes from love in relationship, why would prayer to our dearly departed be condemned. Isn't it more superstitious to fear this form of communication as necromancy, rather than a love that did not die with the individual.

But maybe this is all just a pagan act going back to early ancestor worship. You see we cannot view the world as so black and white, where Christianity is wholly right and therefore all other worship is wholly wrong. Our ancestors, even the pagan ones, had certain truths within their beliefs.

Why pray at all? Because God commands it. However, praying to saints are not commanded at all, but rather condemned.

If the Christian faith and all other forms of worship isn't black and white, then there is no objective truth in the world.

 

[Albion]

Catholics pray to the dead saints because they want to.

There is NO Bible Scripture that directs us to pray top the dead. It is another of the false practices encouraged and taught by the Catholic church.

They pray to the saints because they believe that these spirits have more influence with God than they, the mortals, do. The saints are seen as willing intercessors with the Father, such that we are more likely to have our prayers answered if a saint carries it to God than if we just go to him on our.

By the way, in our (not Roman Catholic) services we pray that God will be merciful in general, but we also affirm that Jesus is "our only mediator and advocate."

 

[tz620q]

It is dangerous to trade practices when it involves tinkering with the word of God. We ought to regulate all forms of worship according to the Scripture alone.

So no discussion needed. OK. I learned a long time ago that most people here are here to preach, not discuss. Seems like a waste on a public discussion forum; but it can expand or contract to fit all of our needs.

Since we are talking worship, how old are your forms of worship? Are they as old as Scripture; because that seems to be standard that you are proposing? If not, then when did they change and why?

 

[Jonaitis]

Since we are talking worship, how old are your forms of worship? Are they as old as Scripture; because that seems to be standard that you are proposing? If not, then when did they change and why?

Our forms of worship are found in Acts 2:42. You cannot be anymore simpler and older than that.

 

[Lost4words]

Catholics pray to the dead saints because they want to.

There is NO Bible Scripture that directs us to pray top the dead. It is another of the false practices encouraged and taught by the Catholic church.

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

Rev. 19:10...………...
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,".

If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing as it is actually and literally idolatry.

Worship / Prayer. Not the same.

Plus, as you very well know, Catholicism is not based on Sola Scripture.

We believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

 

[concretecamper]

Mark 2:5
And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus forgave the man's sins becasue of the faith of others. Such is the communion of Saints. We are One Body. As scripture says, He is God of the living.

 

[Major1]

Worship / Prayer. Not the same.

Plus, as you very well know, Catholicism is not based on Sola Scripture.

We believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

I am more than well aware of what Catholicism is. Actually it is not based on Scripture at all IMO.

The issue concerning any church and its practices should be “Is this biblical?”.

If a teaching is Biblical (taken in context), it should be embraced. If it is not, it should be rejected.

God is more interested in whether a church is doing His will and obeying His Word than whether it can trace a line of succession back to Jesus’ apostles.

Jesus was very concerned about abandoning the Word of God to follow the traditions of men.

Mark 7:7...……..
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Traditions are not inherently invalid…there are some good and valuable traditions. Again, the issue must be whether a doctrine, practice, or tradition is Biblical. How then does the Roman Catholic Church compare with the teachings of the Word of God has to be the real question?

 

[Major1]

They pray to the saints because they believe that these spirits have more influence with God than they, the mortals, do. The saints are seen as willing intercessors with the Father, such that we are more likely to have our prayers answered if a saint carries it to God than if we just go to him on our.

By the way, in our (not Roman Catholic) services we pray that God will be merciful in general, but we also affirm that Jesus is "our only mediator and advocate."

Yes, of course that is the obvious. Now the real question here must be...…...
Why do you and I see that and understand it when they do not?????????

 

[Albion]

Once "This is the one and only true church" is ingrained, anything that follows is automatically accepted. And it is comforting to many people to think that their church or denomination IS the one and only true church because that takes a big weight off the shoulders of these who are bewildered by the conflicting claims of all the different denominations that exist.

Plus, most people are not theologians, so they are impressed by such things as the sheer size, history, and mystery of Catholicism, which they easily translate into evidence of the authenticity of the church's claims.

 

[Major1]

Once "This is the one and only true church" is ingrained, anything that follows is automatically accepted. And it is comforting to many people to think that their church or denomination IS the one and only true church because that takes a big weight off the shoulders of these who are bewildered by the conflicting claims of all the different denominations that exist.

Plus, most people are not theologians, so they are impressed by such things as the sheer size, history, and mystery of Catholicism, which they easily translate into evidence of the authenticity of the church's claims.

Agreed. Safety in numbers!

 

[Lost4words]

I am more than well aware of what Catholicism is. Actually it is not based on Scripture at all IMO.

The issue concerning any church and its practices should be “Is this biblical?”.

If a teaching is Biblical (taken in context), it should be embraced. If it is not, it should be rejected.

God is more interested in whether a church is doing His will and obeying His Word than whether it can trace a line of succession back to Jesus’ apostles.

Jesus was very concerned about abandoning the Word of God to follow the traditions of men.

Mark 7:7...……..
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Traditions are not inherently invalid…there are some good and valuable traditions. Again, the issue must be whether a doctrine, practice, or tradition is Biblical. How then does the Roman Catholic Church compare with the teachings of the Word of God has to be the real question?

Your lack of knowledge of Catholicism is huge as one can see by your post.

You base your faith on Sola Scripture. Which one?

The reason i ask that is because of the 1,000's of other denominations who also state they are 'sola scripture' and who each have completely different interpretations, views, opinions and beliefs on what scripture is actually telling them.

 

[Albion]

Your lack of knowledge of Catholicism is huge as one can see by your post.

You base your faith on Sola Scripture. Which one?

I recommend this one, but others are good too.

OFFICIAL KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE: AUTHORIZED KING JAMES VERSION (KJV)

The reason i ask that is because of the 1,000's of other denominations who also state they are 'sola scripture' and who each have completely different interpretations, views, opinions and beliefs on what scripture is actually telling them.

So also do all the Catholic denominations that use custom instead of Sola Scriptura.

No two of them agree on doctrine, which isn't even as good a track record as the diversity that exists among the reformed churches which you referred to.

 

[Lost4words]

Catholicism uses Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradtion. Guided by the Holy Spirit. Handed down through Apostolic succession. Given to us by Jesus when He said to Peter:

Matthew 16:18-19
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Now, i am leaving this thread as it is turning into yet another Catholic bashing one by the same 2 people that ALWAYS attack Catholicism. You know who you are!

Bye.

God bless everyone

 

[Major1]

Your lack of knowledge of Catholicism is huge as one can see by your post.

You base your faith on Sola Scripture. Which one?

The reason i ask that is because of the 1,000's of other denominations who also state they are 'sola scripture' and who each have completely different interpretations, views, opinions and beliefs on what scripture is actually telling them.

Please read comment #18.