Why did the Lord kill little children? ~ Num 16

[CCWoody]

Num 16:27, 32-33 GB
(27) So they gate them away from the Tabernacle of Korah, Dathan and Abiram on euerie side: and Dathan, and Abiram came out and stood in the doore of their tentes with their wiues, and their sonnes, and their little children.
(32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them vp, with their families, and all the men that were with Korah, and all their goods.
(33) So they and all that they had, went down aliue into the pit, and the earth couered them: so they perished from among the Congregation.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Num 16:27, 32-33 GB
(27) So they gate them away from the Tabernacle of Korah, Dathan and Abiram on euerie side: and Dathan, and Abiram came out and stood in the doore of their tentes with their wiues, and their sonnes, and their little children.
(32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them vp, with their families, and all the men that were with Korah, and all their goods.
(33) So they and all that they had, went down aliue into the pit, and the earth couered them: so they perished from among the Congregation.

Good question Woody.

Weren't those children innocent?

 

[Wrigley]

Good question Woody.

Weren't those children innocent?

What would make them innocent?

 

[Morghaine]

I don't think it is for us to understand everything that God does or to understand His plan(s) for us.

 

[QuantaCura]

God is teaching the lesson that those who create schisms not only endanger their own souls, but those of their families who they lead.

Remember, here was their sin:

Num. 16:1 And behold Core the son of Isaar, the son of Caath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiron the sons of Eliab, and Hon the son of Pheleth of the children of Ruben, 2 Rose up against Moses, and with them two hundred and fifty others of the children of Israel, leading men of the synagogue, and who in the time of assembly were called by name. 3 And when they had stood up against Moses and Aaron, they said: Let it be enough for you, that all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them: Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord?

 

[stumpjumper]

Num 16:27, 32-33 GB.

My short answer would be that he didn't and that the story here is simply part of a redacted narrative.

But, lets look at the whole section. There were two rebellions here the one of Korah and the one of Dathan and Abiram. Moses was attempting to deal with the rebellions and first he spoke with Korah and his followers and they repented and the LORD forgave them. But Dathan and Abiram did not repent and they were punished along with their families.

According to a literal exegesis God killed the little children. According to a more critical method of exegesis, the author of Numbers was showing that following God and seeking repentence is a good thing and that those who seek forgiveneness will find it.

Most Christians don't really think that the earth opened its mouth and swallowed whole families because of a tribal disagreement...

But it does have intereseting allegorical applications.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

God is teaching the lesson that those who create schisms not only endanger their own souls, but those of their families who they lead.

Remember, here was their sin:

Num. 16:1 And behold Core the son of Isaar, the son of Caath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiron the sons of Eliab, and Hon the son of Pheleth of the children of Ruben, 2 Rose up against Moses, and with them two hundred and fifty others of the children of Israel, leading men of the synagogue, and who in the time of assembly were called by name. 3 And when they had stood up against Moses and Aaron, they said: Let it be enough for you, that all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them: Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord?

Was God just to kill those babies to teach others a lesson, even though those babies had not done anything?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I don't think it is for us to understand everything that God does or to understand His plan(s) for us.

Are you saying that God has a secret will?

 

[CCWoody]

Good question Woody.

Weren't those children innocent?

As you know, this question came up on the Sovereignty of God thread and the answer given for the killing of the babies was that they were polluted by the ritual religious sexual practices of their parents, thus making them unsavable. And, thought I didn't really chase that sub-vein other than to point out that this is the same type of argument used by abortionists, I thought a thread to itself would be good. The fact that this verse was a part of my morning Bible devotions gave me the only excuse I needed.

 

[QuantaCura]

Was God just to kill those babies to teach others a lesson, even though those babies had not done anything?

This wasn't the only time. He also ordered the Israelites to wipe out other nations, including their children.

God in the OT used very carnal punishments so the people of God could see tangible consequences to sin--such as idolotry or, in this case, schism/rebellion--not only on the sinner but on those he influences. As revelation progressed, the spiritual consequences (Hell; spiritual death) were brought more fully to light by Jesus.

Let those of us who have been enlightened to the greater spiritual reality by the light of the Gospel no longer focus on those temporal punishments. God used them to teach a lesson. Hopefully we have learned it. For all we know those children may have have descended into Abraham's bosom to be preached to and rescued later by Jesus.

 

[QuantaCura]

Just as a side question, under Calvinist theology, are babies who die considered to all be elect or do some descend into Hell due to limited atonement? Eternal punishment for no lesson seems much more unjust for babies who have done nothing than temporal punishment for a good lesson.

 

[Combatchuc11]

Num 16:27, 32-33 GB
(27) So they gate them away from the Tabernacle of Korah, Dathan and Abiram on euerie side: and Dathan, and Abiram came out and stood in the doore of their tentes with their wiues, and their sonnes, and their little children.
(32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them vp, with their families, and all the men that were with Korah, and all their goods.
(33) So they and all that they had, went down aliue into the pit, and the earth couered them: so they perished from among the Congregation.

There's some "3rd world countries" out there that could explain this a little bit better. In highschool, my best friend's father told us a story about when he was in the navy. They made a stop in Egypt and naturally, were told to go no where alone. One of his friends was one of those 5% body fat bench press 300 lbs kinda' guy so he figured no one could touch him and veered off from the group to go shop. On his way he was mugged by a gang of kids around 12 years old. In vietnam, there were instances of little children coming up to soldiers and hanging them a box that had a grenade or other explosive in it. Brazil has kids that are the head of huge drug rings. My local air force base just busted up a meth ring that was run by some kids. Also, elsewhere in the bible when Elisha is being harassed by "kids" the hebrew word used in the original text also shows up when describing some people joining the army. In other words, the kids were probably in ages ranging 13 or 14 to 18. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that what probably happened is a) their families supported the husband/father is their revolt or b) accompanied them (atleast the male portion). That's my 2 cents.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

As you know, this question came up on the Sovereignty of God thread and the answer given for the killing of the babies was that they were polluted by the ritual religious sexual practices of their parents, thus making them unsavable. And, thought I didn't really chase that sub-vein other than to point out that this is the same type of argument used by abortionists, I thought a thread to itself would be good. The fact that this verse was a part of my morning Bible devotions gave me the only excuse I needed.

LOL, did you really need an excuse?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Was God just to kill those babies to teach others a lesson, even though those babies had not done anything?

This wasn't the only time. He also ordered the Israelites to wipe out other nations, including their children.

God in the OT used very carnal punishments so the people of God could see tangible consequences to sin--such as idolotry or, in this case, schism/rebellion--not only on the sinner but on those he influences. As revelation progressed, the spiritual consequences (Hell; spiritual death) were brought more fully to light by Jesus.

Let those of us who have been enlightened to the greater spiritual reality by the light of the Gospel no longer focus on those temporal punishments. God used them to teach a lesson. Hopefully we have learned it. For all we know those children may have have descended into Abraham's bosom to be preached to and rescued later by Jesus.

That doesn't really answer the question though, does it?

 

[QuantaCura]

Was God just to kill those babies to teach others a lesson, even though those babies had not done anything?




That doesn't really answer the question though, does it?

Ahhh, I see where this is going now . That's why I asked the above side question--the implied wrongness of this act seemed so contradictory to Calvinist thought

No, I do not think this is unjust. I do not think temporal punishment is unjust nor do I think it unjust to exclude the unbaptized from the beatic vision. But, I also don't rule out God granting them a special grace in mercy. In fact, I pray for it nightly

 

[CCWoody]

LOL, did you really need an excuse?

Ok, so if I understand this thread so far, there are 3 views which have been put forth to explain why God killed the little children of Israel:

1. It is OK to kill innocent children as long as you are teaching a lesson to adults about creating schisms. ~ Roman Catholic
2. God really didn't kill them. ~ Lutheran
3. The Little children were terrorists. ~ non-denomination Christian

Do I have that right?

 

[prestonw]

Ok, so if I understand this thread so far, there are 3 views which have been put forth to explain why God killed the little children of Israel:

1. It is OK to kill innocent children as long as you are teaching a lesson to adults about creating schisms. ~ Roman Catholic
2. God really didn't kill them. ~ Lutheran
3. The Little children were terrorists. ~ non-denomination Christian

Do I have that right?

God doesn't kill children, nor people in general. The OT is full of people interpreting events as acts of God. We still have it going on today and if, in 1000 years, our news stories got put into the Bible, God would get blamed for 9/11, Katrina, and a slew of other disasters because religous figures have said so. At least that is my opinion of the whole issue. Also, I don't think God kills people because it is "part of his plan" and I don't understand this idea. I guess it is seen as a method of comfort for the family or something.

 

[Bobber]

As you know, this question came up on the Sovereignty of God thread and the answer given for the killing of the babies was that they were polluted by the ritual religious sexual practices of their parents, thus making them unsavable. And, thought I didn't really chase that sub-vein other than to point out that this is the same type of argument used by abortionists, I thought a thread to itself would be good. The fact that this verse was a part of my morning

Bad form Woody...from what I see, and I might be mistaken you ask the question but don't give your take on the subject. ...my take will be in my next post...

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

As you know, this question came up on the Sovereignty of God thread and the answer given for the killing of the babies was that they were polluted by the ritual religious sexual practices of their parents, thus making them unsavable. And, thought I didn't really chase that sub-vein other than to point out that this is the same type of argument used by abortionists, I thought a thread to itself would be good. The fact that this verse was a part of my morning Bible devotions gave me the only excuse I needed.

What I always find curious, is that those who put up the argument that those babies were killed because they had been corrupted by their parents, are the same one's who say that Adam's sin nature was not passed to all humanity, saying God does not punish the children for the parents sin.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Ok, so if I understand this thread so far, there are 3 views which have been put forth to explain why God killed the little children of Israel:

1. It is OK to kill innocent children as long as you are teaching a lesson to adults about creating schisms. ~ Roman Catholic
2. God really didn't kill them. ~ Lutheran
3. The Little children were terrorists. ~ non-denomination Christian

Do I have that right?

Yup.